.30-30 Disrespect?

[saturno_v]

But if you were tracking a wounded grizzly and I was backing you up, we'd probably both feel better if I had something with a bit more muzzle energy that a .30-30.

Of course, but that is a totally different story...in that situation I do not even want to have a 300 Wby Magnum with 180 grain bullets to be my backup.

A stoutly constructed, slower moving bullet with extremely high SD would be my choice....if limited to a 30 cal. class, a 30-06 with 220-240 gr. pills. would be my choice

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Of course, but that is a totally different story...in that situation I do not even want to have a 300 Wby Magnum with 180 grain bullets to be my backup.

A stoutly constructed, slower moving bullet with extremely high SD would be my choice....if limited to a 30 cal. class, a 30-06 with 220-240 gr. pills. would be my choice

And no disrespect meant to the 116-year old Grand Lady of smokeless sporting cartridges.

 

[mdauben]

It's no disrespect to the .30-30 to say it would not be my choice for stopping a charging grizzley.

True, but how many of the people on this forum actually live or even regularly hunt in grizzly country? I know I seldom run across them while hunting in the SE United States.

 

[leftymachinist]

Like us old folks say, "practice, practice, practice". It is not what is the newest barn burner, but what you are most familiar with. I play with an old marlin 30-30 and can hit consistently out to 300+ yards. Although I would rather keep my range down to 200 yards.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

True, but how many of the people on this forum actually live or even regularly hunt in grizzly country? I know I seldom run across them while hunting in the SE United States.

That's my point. Saying a .30-30 isn't the best choice for stopping a charging grizzly is like saying a .505 Gibbs isn't the best choice for stopping a charging Tyrannasaurs Rex.

 

[DM~]

A stoutly constructed, slower moving bullet with extremely high SD would be my choice....if limited to a 30 cal. class, a 30-06 with 220-240 gr. pills. would be my choice

And through MY OWN and a few others expierence, i know that, that would NOT be the best choise in a 30-06. A 200NP out performs that load, and does a better job at breaking big bears down every time, but what do i know, i only hunted them for 25 years with a variety of cartridges/bullets. (including 30-06's)

DM

 

[saturno_v]

No the skull didn't stop the 30-30 bullet, and yes it did gouge the skull and not penetrate. (i saw this for myself) I hunted bear for 25 years in Alaska, and i've seen what a head shot bear does. (along with many other types of hits)

If you think a 30-30 bullet will do anything a faster bullet with a higher SD will do, you are mistaken, and perhaps with a little more experience of different cartridges/bullets on big bears, you will think differently about your answer?

Keep in mind, a .308" 170 30-30 bullet is not only slower, it also is "softer" than a bigger heavier bullet used in a faster cartridge like a 300 win. mag., or even the heavier 7mm bullets.

When i designed and mfg'd bullets, i always designed the jackets for the intended speed the bullet would be used, just as all the other bullet makers still do today.

DM

So if you say that the skull did not stop the 30-30 bullet you admit it was a bad angle/glancing shot right??

A faster, higher SD bullet will obviously outpenetrate a lighter slower one (same caliber) all else being equal (deformability).....bullet construction as you well know is a huge source of variability.

Of course jacket thickness between a bullet designed to expand at 30-30 velocities vs. 300 Magnum velocity will be different...however it happened several times at very short range that bullet fired from very high velocity cartridges literally exploded failing to penetrate.

And through MY OWN and a few others expierence, i know that, that would NOT be the best choise in a 30-06. A 200NP out performs that load, and does a better job at breaking big bears down every time, but what do i know, i only hunted them for 25 years with a variety of cartridges/bullets. (including 30-06's)

I did mention the 220-240 gr. as an indication but I'm sure that some highly specialized lighter bullets Ilike the Nosler Partition) can do the trick as your personal experience prove it.
I had some people that, like you, have hunted the big bears that told me that some specialized 180 grainers in 30-06 do a great job. But I never hunted a bear so I cannot claim personal experience about it.

 

[DM~]

Of course jacket thickness between a bullet designed to expand at 30-30 velocities vs. 300 Magnum velocity will be different...however it happened several times at very short range that bullet fired from very high velocity cartridges literally exploded failing to penetrate.

Of course it happened, it's called makeing a POOR choise of bullet for the velicity. My brother had a 270 win. factory load, 130 corlok blow up on the shoulder bone of a whitetail. The deer came by VERY close, and it happened. Wounded the deer, and it took some doing to recover the buck, as it went into a big swamp.

Like i said, not all bullets are built the same, you have to choose the right one for the intended job...especially at magnum velocities. I said right one! Not just right weight!

With a proper designed bullet, it will penetrate deeper with more velocity, at least to the point where the bullet will again fail. Plus, the bullet does MUCH more damage than a slower bullet as it penetrates. Lots of damage, with excellent penetration is what i want, and that is why i'm such a big fan of NP's.

I saw the bear skull, i'll bet you a 30-06 with a 200NP loaded in it would have stopped that bear, where the 30-30 failed. I've seen first hand the difference between the two... BUT, i'm NOT expecting the 30-30 to be a 30-06, or dissing the 30-30... Just like i wasn't when i relayed the story in the first place.

DM

 

[saturno_v]

I saw the bear skull, i'll bet you a 30-06 with a 200NP loaded in it would have stopped that bear, where the 30-30 failed. I've seen first hand the difference between the two... BUT, i'm NOT expecting the 30-30 to be a 30-06, or dissing the 30-30... Just like i wasn't when i relayed the story in the first place.

Again, I do not understand the point if you can explain....you saw the skull, ok I get that but did you recovered the bullet?? If it was not a glancing/bad angle shot and the bullet genuinely failed to penetrate for lack of power, the bullet should have lodged in the skull...and, again, I believe that a 170 gr. Silvertip that hit a bear skull fair and square at short distance, no matter the kind of bear it is, would get through quite nicely...I never hunted bears but I saw personally how the old 30 WCF penetrate, I posted a link to a rather impressive penetration test.
If it was a glanced shot (bad angle) not even a 338 Win Mag would have get through...it would have been deflected as well....actually often faster bullets deflect more easily in situations like that...

To make things clear again....I di not think a 30-20 is an adequate grizzly cartridge at all.

 

[PapaG]

For what it is worth.....on the lighter side, a 30-30 with a cast 170 grain or lighter bullet and a recommended charge of Trail Boss will duplicate the 32-40, will shoot accurately, and provide a lot of shooting for little bucks....and is a great training cartridge for the kids.

And it will drop a deer with a double lung shot. Or roll a coyote. You just gotta get familiar with the drop.

 

[556A2]

I love the .30-30, but the only bear I would even consider it for would be black bear.

 

[TCB in TN]

I don't have any experience with big griz skull shots but have seen a 150 30-30 punch through both shoulders of a deer, and also the same deal with a hog. Not sure but would have to see something to make me believe that a bear skull was thicker/more dense than a single shoulder bone of a big hog. Hit straight on and flush (and that would the the problem with any round) then I would have to believe the 30-30 punches old bruno the bruins ticket.

 

[skipbo32]

30-30 is one of the oldest calibers there is. there is a reason it is still around. i just picked up a 30-30 marlin 336. its built like a tank,....... and shoots like one too.

 

[x_wrench]

i own a 30-30, and i really think it is a fine round. it does have its limits however. many of the newer (remember how old this cartridge REALLY is) rounds vasty out range it. i have shot several deer with it. i have also read press that talks about using a 30-30 for black bear. i think moose, unless it was a very close range would be a bit optimistic. although, think about Fred Bear killing rhino and elephant with two sticks and a string! everything boils down to the situation. could you kill an elephant with a 30-30, certainly. you would be a far braver man than i for sure, but it could be done. you should also expect to track it for some distance though. the big thing to remember with the 30-30, is it has its limits for a clean, quick kill. bullet choice is very important with this cartridge. it must be the propper bullet for the game. i hand load spitzers for mine, not for the tube, but to feed in singly for the first shot. a spitzer in the tube magazine is asking for a trip to the hospital! all in all, it is a great cartridge. it has just been surpassed by so many more modern rounds that is seems pretty whimpy by comparison.

 

[DM~]

Again, I do not understand the point if you can explain....

I don't think you will ever understand, that is, not until i agree with "your" thinking. I guess i could do that, but then we'd BOTH be wrong... ha ha ha

Anyway, i have a healthy background in hunting bullet design/mfg., i sold new mfg. ammo, and reloads for many years... I fired thousands of bullets in penetration test on all kinds of medium, from bone to live animals. (hunting) I hunted extensivily all over Alaska, useing many different cartridges/bullets/guns, and i've related my personal experience here. It's what i saw, what people (including experts) i trust have told me, and what i believe to be true, and that's good enough for me. If you choose to believe something different, based on some other non related info, that's just fine with me.

It's NOT my mission in life to argue/debate with arm chair bear hunters. lol

DM

 

[saturno_v]

I don't think you will ever understand, that is, not until i agree with "your" thinking. I guess i could do that, but then we'd BOTH be wrong... ha ha ha

Anyway, i have a healthy background in hunting bullet design/mfg., i sold new mfg. ammo, and reloads for many years... I fired thousands of bullets in penetration test on all kinds of medium, from bone to live animals. (hunting) I hunted extensivily all over Alaska, useing many different cartridges/bullets/guns, and i've related my personal experience here. It's what i saw, what people (including experts) i trust have told me, and what i believe to be true, and that's good enough for me. If you choose to believe something different, based on some other non related info, that's just fine with me.

It's NOT my mission in life to argue/debate with arm chair bear hunters. lol

DM

Ok I get it...it was a glancing shot.....a bit of long winded explanation but I think we got there....

 

[Art Eatman]

Given the wandering around, it looks like five pages is enough bandwidth for this repeat of earlier threads on this subject.