R.W.Dale
Member
Really! The 44 mag from a carbine puts a rather more significant smackdown on deer than 30-30, a good 240grn HP really knocks them for a loop
30-30 reduced recoil or 44 magnum
- Thread starter marksman13
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I did some bench shooting with a 357 Rossi Puma carbine. Nice to shoot standing but over a bench - it starts to hurt real fast! And those were not hot factory loads
marksman13, have you considered something like the 25-35? Some say it is just fine on dear and can handle the same pressure as a 30-30 although load data manuals give loads at lower pressure.
Peter
marksman13, have you considered something like the 25-35? Some say it is just fine on dear and can handle the same pressure as a 30-30 although load data manuals give loads at lower pressure.
Peter
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marksman13
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peterotte, I would rather stick to something that is commmonly available. I would be hard pressed to find 25-35 ammo around here, and I don't reload. Thanks for the suggestion though.
Harley Quinn
Member
Here is some information about the 44 magnum:
.44 Remington Magnum (rifle)
For several years after the .44 Magnum was introduced in 1956, a number of gunsmiths paid their bills by converting Model 92 Winchesters for Remington's big revolver cartridge. Some were re-barreled, others were re-bored and re-chambered. A few years later the Ruger autoloading carbine, Winchester Model 94, Marlin Model 336, Marlin Model 94, Remington Model 788 and several foreign made rifles in .44 Magnum came on the scene. The extra barrel length boosted muzzle velocity by about 300 fps, which didn't exactly transform the .44 Magnum into a rifle cartridge but it did make it an excellent choice for the woods hunter looking for a quick handling rifle for use on Whitetails, Black Bear, and wild boar.
Whereas, a good portion of the effectiveness of many cartridges on big game comes from high velocity, the .44 Magnum simply punches a big hole through whatever it encounters. This can be quite important to the fellow who loves to sit down to a venison dinner since, as the old saying goes, "you can eat right up to the bullet hole." If the .44 Magnum has a strike against it as a deer cartridge it is its rainbow like trajectory beyond 100 yards.
"But, at woods ranges it is about as effective as the .30-30 and the .35 Remington."
A few handloaders have tried to transform the .44 Magnum into something it will never be by loading it with lightweight bullets at relatively high chamber pressures. Such bullets with their low sectional densities work fine on broadside shots into the lung area, but for quartering shots they are a poor choice. The 240 grain bullet at about 1800 fps is tough to beat in this cartridge but for deer, hog, and Black Bear load that seldom fails to punch on through and leave a blood trail, no other bullet comes close to the Hornady 265 grain round nose.
Excellent powders for the .44 Magnum are H110, H4227, IMR-4227, Alliant 2400, and W-296.
Source: Hodgdon Data Manual, 26th Edition
The above is an opinion like many others that have been mentioned.
The below link is for a great article on the 35 Remington. Which is to my way of thinking a better consideration then the 30-30 or the 44 mag.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_4_49/ai_98124200
.44 Remington Magnum (rifle)
For several years after the .44 Magnum was introduced in 1956, a number of gunsmiths paid their bills by converting Model 92 Winchesters for Remington's big revolver cartridge. Some were re-barreled, others were re-bored and re-chambered. A few years later the Ruger autoloading carbine, Winchester Model 94, Marlin Model 336, Marlin Model 94, Remington Model 788 and several foreign made rifles in .44 Magnum came on the scene. The extra barrel length boosted muzzle velocity by about 300 fps, which didn't exactly transform the .44 Magnum into a rifle cartridge but it did make it an excellent choice for the woods hunter looking for a quick handling rifle for use on Whitetails, Black Bear, and wild boar.
Whereas, a good portion of the effectiveness of many cartridges on big game comes from high velocity, the .44 Magnum simply punches a big hole through whatever it encounters. This can be quite important to the fellow who loves to sit down to a venison dinner since, as the old saying goes, "you can eat right up to the bullet hole." If the .44 Magnum has a strike against it as a deer cartridge it is its rainbow like trajectory beyond 100 yards.
"But, at woods ranges it is about as effective as the .30-30 and the .35 Remington."
A few handloaders have tried to transform the .44 Magnum into something it will never be by loading it with lightweight bullets at relatively high chamber pressures. Such bullets with their low sectional densities work fine on broadside shots into the lung area, but for quartering shots they are a poor choice. The 240 grain bullet at about 1800 fps is tough to beat in this cartridge but for deer, hog, and Black Bear load that seldom fails to punch on through and leave a blood trail, no other bullet comes close to the Hornady 265 grain round nose.
Excellent powders for the .44 Magnum are H110, H4227, IMR-4227, Alliant 2400, and W-296.
Source: Hodgdon Data Manual, 26th Edition
The above is an opinion like many others that have been mentioned.
The below link is for a great article on the 35 Remington. Which is to my way of thinking a better consideration then the 30-30 or the 44 mag.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_4_49/ai_98124200
kmrcstintn
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I concentrate on .38/.357 in my revolvers and the natural lever action mate for me is the Marlin 1894C that shoots/feeds virtually all the same ammo as my revolvers; the noted exception are very sharp edged semiwadcutters that jam against the feeding ramp and won't advance; my 1894C absolutely loves 158 gr .357 mag loads and shoots 1/2" at 25 yards and 1 1/2" to 2" at 50 yards using open sights from a rest; if I scoped it, I feel that I could tighten the groups up a good bit depending upon my trigger control; lately, I've been putting them slightly right...me thinks I need to slow down my trigger manipulation a bit; I'm on the fence about incorporating the 1894 into the deer hunting corral this year since I've also got a .30-06, a .25-06, and a 12 guage thumper to choose from;
I still wish that I had my Marlin 336 in .30-30...fun, fun, fun...and enough for whitetail and smaller black bears; my .357 mag won't be used for hunting bear...I want a bit more snot to get through the hide and thicker bones/ribs in the chest
I still wish that I had my Marlin 336 in .30-30...fun, fun, fun...and enough for whitetail and smaller black bears; my .357 mag won't be used for hunting bear...I want a bit more snot to get through the hide and thicker bones/ribs in the chest
I thought the 25-35 was making a come-back. O.K. then.
On the 35 Remington, my Dad hunted cape buffalo with one. One time, he had a through and through heart shot that broke the shoulder of a buff behind the first. He loved that gun - it was a short pump action, ideal he said, for bush hunting.
It's going to have a stiff recoil 'though.
Peter
On the 35 Remington, my Dad hunted cape buffalo with one. One time, he had a through and through heart shot that broke the shoulder of a buff behind the first. He loved that gun - it was a short pump action, ideal he said, for bush hunting.
It's going to have a stiff recoil 'though.
Peter
Harley Quinn
Member
Recoil and the 35 Remington or the 30-30...
I read that the recoil of the 30-30 and the 35 are about the same, depending on the weight of the bullet. I think it will be about 11 pounds, with a rifle weighing in at around 7 pounds or so. A good pad should make it pretty light.
I read that the recoil of the 30-30 and the 35 are about the same, depending on the weight of the bullet. I think it will be about 11 pounds, with a rifle weighing in at around 7 pounds or so. A good pad should make it pretty light.
R.W.Dale
Member
NOT EVEN CLOSE!
In marlin 336'es the 35 can get downright unpleasant from the bench where the 30-30 is a breeze. You gotta realize that the 35 pushes a 200grn bullet as fast as most 30-30 push a 150grn slug, forget the 170grn 30-30 loads those are laughably anemic. despite published ballistics they SELDOM break 2000 fps in a 20" barrel and are more likely to be going 1900 fps
MeekandMild
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(I think the makers of the PAST recoil pad should start paying me for my efforts to recruit people to try their product.) A few years ago when I had major shoulder problems my PAST pad was the only thing which kept me in the shooting hobby. The PAST pad is an easy to wear gel filled pad which fits under the shooting jacket and cuts recoil considerably.
Having said that, the reality of deer hunting is that you never feel the shoulder thump of the one or two shots that put the deer down. Adrenalin has you too pumped up. Practicing is a different matter and I'll freely admit I used to shoot with a sandbag behind the rifle when I was sighting in. But the pad still makes a psychological difference.
BTW, krochus is right regarding the .35 Rem. I love mine, cracked forend and all, but it used to thump me pretty bad until I got through shoulder rehab and got the PAST pad.
Having said that, the reality of deer hunting is that you never feel the shoulder thump of the one or two shots that put the deer down. Adrenalin has you too pumped up. Practicing is a different matter and I'll freely admit I used to shoot with a sandbag behind the rifle when I was sighting in. But the pad still makes a psychological difference.
BTW, krochus is right regarding the .35 Rem. I love mine, cracked forend and all, but it used to thump me pretty bad until I got through shoulder rehab and got the PAST pad.
Harley Quinn
Member
Recoil
25-35 information...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25-35_Winchester
This is something that ought to lay the recoil issue to rest:
Before pulling the trigger, the momentum of the rifle (m1) including the bullet (m2), is (m1+m2)*0 m/s, or zero.
Per conservation of momentum, the momentum of the system after pulling the trigger is also zero. So m1*v1 = -m2*v2 0.00953 kg*500 m/s = 4 kg*v2
Solve for v2.
The hunter's shoulder exerts a force, F, that causes deceleration, a, of the gun to zero in d = 1 cm. You can the equation of motion which says
V^2 = Vo^2 +2*a*d
where V=0, Vo=v2. Solve for a. Then use F=m*a to get the force.
25-35 information...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25-35_Winchester
This is something that ought to lay the recoil issue to rest:
Before pulling the trigger, the momentum of the rifle (m1) including the bullet (m2), is (m1+m2)*0 m/s, or zero.
Per conservation of momentum, the momentum of the system after pulling the trigger is also zero. So m1*v1 = -m2*v2 0.00953 kg*500 m/s = 4 kg*v2
Solve for v2.
The hunter's shoulder exerts a force, F, that causes deceleration, a, of the gun to zero in d = 1 cm. You can the equation of motion which says
V^2 = Vo^2 +2*a*d
where V=0, Vo=v2. Solve for a. Then use F=m*a to get the force.
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marksman13,
I think MeekandMild has solved your dilemma. Go 30-30 and use low recoil factory ammo for practice and use normal ammo for the hunt. Your lady will not feel the difference! And good on her that she shares in your interest. I'm sure you treasure her!
Regards
Peter
I think MeekandMild has solved your dilemma. Go 30-30 and use low recoil factory ammo for practice and use normal ammo for the hunt. Your lady will not feel the difference! And good on her that she shares in your interest.
I'm sure you treasure her!Regards
Peter
kmrcstintn
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I'll vouch for a gel filled recoil pad to ease the thump. pound, and bang of heavier recoiling rifle...here's my experience with one:
recoil pad: Limbsaver brand gel-filled recoil pad shield; slips on over shoulder and secures around chest with straps and quick disconnent clip (the local shops didn't have PAST brand stuff in stock)
rifle: Tikka T3 in .300 Winchester Magnum; just under 7 pounds in weight; shooting factory standard Winchester Super-X 150 gr softpoint loads
without the recoil pad, I only got 3 shots off before my shoulder and jaw were absolutely pounding; after 15 minute rest and donning the recoil pad, I was able to get 10 shots off before having to rest again...very harsh and sharp recoil reduced to hard and managable recoil
tangent...absolutely hated the recoil...sold the rifle, reinvested the money to updating my father's Remington 760 Gamemaster in .30-06, returned the recoil pad for a refund; dad's gun is much better to shoot after the addition of a Limbsaver recoil pad
recoil pad: Limbsaver brand gel-filled recoil pad shield; slips on over shoulder and secures around chest with straps and quick disconnent clip (the local shops didn't have PAST brand stuff in stock)
rifle: Tikka T3 in .300 Winchester Magnum; just under 7 pounds in weight; shooting factory standard Winchester Super-X 150 gr softpoint loads
without the recoil pad, I only got 3 shots off before my shoulder and jaw were absolutely pounding; after 15 minute rest and donning the recoil pad, I was able to get 10 shots off before having to rest again...very harsh and sharp recoil reduced to hard and managable recoil
tangent...absolutely hated the recoil...sold the rifle, reinvested the money to updating my father's Remington 760 Gamemaster in .30-06, returned the recoil pad for a refund; dad's gun is much better to shoot after the addition of a Limbsaver recoil pad
FLORIDA KEVIN
Member
Why don't you ask HER what she wants ? If my wife would go hunting with me I would buy her whatever gun she wanted!It's a lot cheaper than counciling !
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marksman13
Member
Florida Kevin, I think you missed the first post. She knows what she wants, she just doesn't know what caliber.
I see from Harley Quinn's post that the 25-35 is indeed available in lever action. It's a cartridge I have considered in bolt action. I might still go that route. In a bolt gun it will achieve it's full potential but even in the lever gun, it's performance is not bad at all.
Peter
Peter
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marksman13
Member
The standard 30-30 stuff is out. My wife is very recoil sensitive. Worse than I thought. The 357 may be the only option I have until she works herself up to the larger calibers.
Asherdan
Member
My oldest boy is 13 and built pretty slight. He doesn't tolerate recoil worth a darn. He was having trouble with more than 10 or so rounds of standard 44 Mag in my 1894. I pulled the Speer 210g gold dot HP and a load of Unique that runs it out at ~1500fps accurately. Very gentle load but 100 yards max, which is an OK limit for a young/inexperienced shooter. The bonus is, he could tolerate the recoil poke (instead of a slap) enough to get in good practice.
I think you could get the same thing, a less than 100 yard deer (and anything smaller) round, out of the 1894 in .357 and avoid the handloading gymnastics. I just happen to like loading, too.
On a side note, every 1894 .357 I've played with was slick, pointable and just dang fun.
I think you could get the same thing, a less than 100 yard deer (and anything smaller) round, out of the 1894 in .357 and avoid the handloading gymnastics. I just happen to like loading, too.
On a side note, every 1894 .357 I've played with was slick, pointable and just dang fun.
Marksman13, I don't blame her. I like light recoil - not because I cannot handle recoil. I do I find the hornet recoil too light. Don't classic style lever guns come in 250 Savage? The 357 recoil in a lever gun is not insignificant. You can use 38 spl ammo in it but for hunting...? You know, your good lady really will not notice a full 30-30 when fired at a deer after practicing with low recoil ammo. Are you sure the 25-35 is not available in your area? She would love a gun in that calibre, I'm sure. Good luck in your search for the 'right' gun for her!
Regards
Peter
Regards
Peter
crackerjack
Member
I have levers in 30/30 , 44mag and 357 mag (all Marlins) without question the 158 g in the 357 is the less recoiling and most pleasant to shoot . I reworked my 6 year old 55lb grandaughter a rossi 357 by purchasing a second stock and shortening it and adding a Kickeez pad. She harvested 2 deer last season and is quite accurate with it. I would not hesitate on a well placed shot out to 100yds , in fact I was so pleased with the results I purchased a lever action for her to advance to as she grows. The ballistics and results are quite impressive on the carbines. I enjoy my lever 44 mag but I added a kickeez pad to make it more pleasant to shoot.
Hope it helps
Hope it helps
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R.W.Dale
Member
WHAT kind of weak kneed pansies are you guys? .357 is about the lightest recoiling deer capable round out there. .223 has more recoil than a 357 rifle
Harley Quinn
Member
Lets get serious here people.
When you take an object (bullet) at a certain weight.
Explode something behind it and propell it toward a target there is recoil
If most of the items are similar you will have similar recoil. When you get less recoil you have to have a heavier rifle or a weaker explosion.
(items being speed of bullet, weight of bullet, weight of rifle etc..)
It would be my suggestion that the person is not able to do the job that is necessary to accomplish the mission.
Wounded animals and bad hunters is not the mission of NRA or any other group who have a good responsible position in the hunting field.
Many things on the market to reduce recoil....
Buying a rifle with less recoil is not the answer. Find one that she can shoot, noise needs to be lessoned I'd think, so make sure she has some good hearing protection.
You could always go to the bow, but then she probably could not shoot one that was capable of the job either.
Sad situation, is occuring here. Chains are only as strong as the weakest link.
When you take an object (bullet) at a certain weight.
Explode something behind it and propell it toward a target there is recoil
If most of the items are similar you will have similar recoil. When you get less recoil you have to have a heavier rifle or a weaker explosion.
(items being speed of bullet, weight of bullet, weight of rifle etc..)
It would be my suggestion that the person is not able to do the job that is necessary to accomplish the mission.
Wounded animals and bad hunters is not the mission of NRA or any other group who have a good responsible position in the hunting field.
Many things on the market to reduce recoil....
Buying a rifle with less recoil is not the answer. Find one that she can shoot, noise needs to be lessoned I'd think, so make sure she has some good hearing protection.
You could always go to the bow, but then she probably could not shoot one that was capable of the job either.
Sad situation, is occuring here. Chains are only as strong as the weakest link.
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marksman13
Member
I'm going to buy a stock for this old Marlin and cut it down to fit her, throw a limbsaver recoil pad on it and make her learn to shoot it. I started thinking about it and I was only 6 or 7 when I started shooting this gun and I was alot smaller than she is now. I think it is mostly in her head. I guess it's time to stop babying her.
It's to make the good lady a good hunter that requires a suitable gun for her. The answer is out there. I'm not keen on the idea of a 357 for deer. Limits the range too much and I do have some 'experience' with it's performance on small antelope. Shooting a 357 Rossi lever gun over a bench hurts! Adding a recoil absorber would no doubt do the trick. Low recoil 30-30 for practice sounds like just the ticket. In fact, I might just use low recoil 303 ammo for range work. Flippin good idea! I could use those 7.62x39 bullets. I bet I could get them to the same POI as my regular ammo.
Peter
Flippin good idea! I could use those 7.62x39 bullets. I bet I could get them to the same POI as my regular ammo.Peter
mustanger98
Member
Post #45
Hey Ya'll, Whaddayaknow... Me and Krochus actually agree on something.
Seriously, .357mag from a carbine don't kick. I say that having fired anything from light .38spl up to near max-loaded 180gr HP/XTP's. I also say that having compared it with my Winchester '94 .30-30 which IMO don't kick any worse.
The above said, it still depends alot on stock fit and some other factors. Not meant as a reflection on marksman13's wife, but the shooter's nerves can be a big factor too. Nerves were a big factor for me the first time I fired a .30-30, but my experience included getting over it after a few times and enjoying the rifles and their respective cartridges.
Hey Ya'll, Whaddayaknow... Me and Krochus actually agree on something.
Seriously, .357mag from a carbine don't kick. I say that having fired anything from light .38spl up to near max-loaded 180gr HP/XTP's. I also say that having compared it with my Winchester '94 .30-30 which IMO don't kick any worse.
The above said, it still depends alot on stock fit and some other factors. Not meant as a reflection on marksman13's wife, but the shooter's nerves can be a big factor too. Nerves were a big factor for me the first time I fired a .30-30, but my experience included getting over it after a few times and enjoying the rifles and their respective cartridges.
mustanger98
Member
Well, that is/was what I suggested and my experience, so far, with the Limbsaver pad has been quite positive. However...
My experience is you can't make a woman learn anything to do with this stuff. Push 'em too hard and they either freeze or blow up at you. Her reaction to recoil may well be just in her head... it most likely is... but all you can really do is alter the stock fit part of the equation and have her try it. It may well seem like a whole 'nuther rifle to her. Communication's the key to everything. Get her to tell you how it feels... LOP too long, LOP too short, whatever. The Limbsaver should go a long way provided the butt is in her shoulder and not out on her biceps. I'd be the last one to advocate babying a woman in any case. Help her in any possible way, yes. Baby her, no. Just my opinion.
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