.30 Carbine Blackhawk v. .327 Fed Mag Blackhawk

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eldon519 said:
Well keep in mind there are different brands of ammo out there.
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Well, that's one theory. I have another.
eldon519 said:
The fact that you shot something for 19 years (with no mention of how many rounds) is hardly dispositive that someone could experience misfires.
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Can't say I go out with the .30 Carbine Blackhawk every week. I'd say about once a month. And probably put 100 rounds thru it. BTW, I've put almost every ammo make I can think of thru that puppy.
eldon519 said:
And yes, you keep alluding to this same Taffin article to support points which it doesn't.
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We'll agree to disagree on that. If you want yet another article, try: Ruger's 30 Carbine Blackhawk. Much more credible than the "Duke". And for Ed Ames, the font is not Courier.
eldon519 said:
Just give it up man.
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My feelings exactly, but for the .327 fanboys. And about my lack of experience with the .327, how many of those critical of the .30 Carbine Blackhawk ever fired one?
 
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I guess you must have skipped the part of Taffin's article where he got out his chronograph and measured velocities about 200fps lower than Hodgdon's data advertises. So much for that ballistic advantage.
 
jski said:
My feelings exactly, but for the .327 fanboys. And about my lack of experience with the .327, how many of those critical of the .30 Carbine Blackhawk ever fired one?
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I've owned and put 1000's of rounds down a Ruger Blackhawk 30 Carbine, both factory loads and handloads. I now own 2 Ruger Blackhawks in 327 that I have put 1,000's of rounds down the pipe, mostly handloads, but probably several hundred factory, mostly 100 AE by Federal. Both guns were accurate but I NEVER got the velocity out of the 30 that the 327 100 AE has. I no longer own the 30 but own in 327, two Blackhawks, two Single Sevens, a SP101, and a GP100. When one owns a 327 the 30 Carbine is just a dust collector way over yonder in the back of the safe unless one is just a fanboy of it.

I'll admit I never tried the Buffalo Bore you keep falling back on. I'm not paying $2 a round for 30 Carbine. The cost of 300 rounds of that BB stuff could get you a fine reloading set up powder, primes, brass, bullets and all.

Knowledge from someone else's (Taffin) experience is just knowledge, it's not experience. I like to take that knowledge and run my own tests to see how accurate their writings are, gaining experience as I am doing it.

So from one fanboy to another,,,,,, Now tell us how much experience you have with a 327FM ?????
 
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My whole take on .30carbine vs .327fed is that they are so similar that the big difference is the powder used.

.30 has slightly larger case capacity which gives it an edge IF it can be used without going over on pressure which is not likely. .327 has a higher working pressure that brings it up to performance level of the .30 by utilizing the available pressure range. This becomes a moot point as the advantages cancel each other out.

Now you look at the availability...30 is easier to find but .327 is far from being rare. .30 is cheaper but .327 rounds are usually premium rounds of some sort. Again it's a wash.

Reloading...not something a lot of folks do but shooters of .327 definately SHOULD for price and shooters of .30 handguns SHOULD for performance matched to platform. .30 brass is easier to find, .327 brass can be bought reasonably so with personal preferences being widely varied I call brass availability a wash since so many people turn their nose up to range brass. Cases are loaded using similar components and the same powder so that's a wash too.

So now it comes down to the most general of all comparisons...factory load purpose. Factory .30 is intended for longer barrels and powder/performance is not optimal in a handgun. .327 is a true handgun round and is optimal. So to me .327 gets the nod in a handgun. If I were looking at carbines that decision would be flipped for the exact same reason.
 
garrettj,

your marlin/blue dot load is a max load per the book; your 1911/win231 load is at, or below, minimum per the book. if you go to "balistics by the inch" the fps chart for the 45acp and the 230 grain bullet shows a slowdown at about the 16 inch barrel length.

my point is that you can have too much barrel length in some pistol cartridge rifles.

murf
 
Not a fanboy, don't even own a .327 yet but I do have two .32H&R's and two .32-20's. Why do you keep bringing up the Buffalo Bore load? It's running slower from a Blackhawk than the .327 out of a Single Seven.

You're still ignoring the basic facts I outlined previously:

1. The .327 is rimmed and a rim is always preferred in a revolver. Especially one that operates at such lofty pressures. Headspacing on the rim is much easier and allows for the superior roll crimp. No worries about bullets creeping forward under recoil.

2. The .327 is short enough to fit into the Single Six platform. This is a HUGE advantage compared to the overweight and bloated Blackhawk.

3. The .327 utilizes the same HANDGUN bullets as cartridges dating back to the late 1800's. Already plenty of .32 pistol bullets on the market. Bullet selection for the .30 is severely limited.
 
Guys, the .30 Carbine case length is almost exactly that of the .357, .41, and .44 mags. and the .45 Colt. Differing only by thousandths of an inch.

Never heard of those puppies being too long.

30and45cases.JPG
A .30 Carbine case and .45 Colt case - both Starline brass
 
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Whether or not it fits in a certain model is not an opinion that needs your validation. You can dispute it all you want, try to reason around it, etc, but it will not change the dimensions.
 
And when did the Single Six become the standard by which we judge pistol cartridges? Personally, my favorite revolver is my .45 Colt S&W Mountain Gun. It's almost too pretty to shoot. So let me offer up the S&W Mountain Gun as THE standard. That puppy could certainly accommodate the .30 Carbine cartridge length.
 
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Are we moving into the realm of fantasy now? I don't want a .30cal N-frame any more than I want a .30cal Blackhawk. Why stop with the Mountain Gun? If weight is such a non-issue that you won't even discuss it, why not an X-frame?

2. The .327 is short enough to fit into the Single Six platform. This is a HUGE advantage compared to the overweight and bloated Blackhawk.

I may be a "fanboy" but you're a true believer!
 
jski said:
And when did the Single Six become the standard by which we judge pistol cartridges
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Think about it as a matter of "getting what you pay for," with "pay" in this case encompassing all of the compromises that go into a handgun. For example if you have a long cylinder, that makes the entire gun longer, bulkier, heavier...in other words it has a cost. Having a long cylinder to fire a cartridge that doesn't need to be long is an example of not getting what you paid for because you have all of the costs of a long cylinder but none of the normal advantages.

The .30 carbine Blackhawk is an example of not getting what you pay for in a number of ways. The single seven is, for identical barrel length, 3 ounces lighter, fires seven rounds instead of six, is smaller, and (though not everyone values this) is stainless instead of blued, all for the same MSRP, and delivering near enough the same performance.
 
I take your point guys, how about a J-frame S&W? That accommodates the .357 mag., which has the same case length as the .30 Carbine. And it's certainly more petite than the N-frame Smith.

30and357.JPG

Left is the aforementioned 125 gr Buffalo Bore .30 Carbine and right is a .357 125 gr. JSP.
 
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I believe max cartridge OAL for a .357 magnum is 1.59" while OAL for .30 carbine is 1.655". Too long, then factor in the increased possibility of crimp jump since it's not roll crimped...
 
A greater OAL doesn't really make sense unless it's to accommodate some special military rounds? Don't think it's a practical issue.
 
You could perhaps load the .30c down to that COL assuming the bullet base doesn't bulge the brass with longer bullets, but the issue is that SAAMI manufacturers aren't going to make guns that are too short to chamber standard rounds made to SAAMI spec. You will also have to reduce the powder charge to keep pressure under control which will yield decreased performance. The chrono data that Taffin published shows it already lags behind at full cartridge length.

But why bother? The .327 already has all of these details worked out. It has a higher max pressure to make the most of the shorter COL. Why would you spend the money to get a custom-chambered .30 Carbine-Short Single Six when the .327 already has all of the advantages cited by Craig and others. The argument has almost become "if you take the .30c and change everything about it, it is better than the .327." Also, as the gun gets smaller, recoil will increase, and you might get into issues with bullet jump due to the weaker taper crimp used rather than a roll crimp. It's not a problem in the Blackhawk since it is so heavy and big relative to the round. So what next? Are we going to start custom turning rimmed .30C brass on a lathe so we can roll crimp in our custom Single Six .30C-Short?
 
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"if you take the .30c and change everything about it it's better than the .327

And this..These 2 post answer the which is better 30 Carbine or 327 Fed Mag
 
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eldon519 said:
You could perhaps load the .30c down to that COL assuming the bullet base doesn't bulge the brass with longer bullets, but the issue is that SAAMI manufacturers aren't going to make guns that are too short to chamber standard rounds made to SAAMI spec. You will also have to reduce the powder charge to keep pressure under control which will yield decreased performance. The chrono data that Taffin published shows it already lags behind at full cartridge length.

But why bother? The .327 already has all of these details worked out. It has a higher max pressure to make the most of the shorter COL. Why would you spend the money to get a custom-chambered .30 Carbine-Short Single Six when the .327 already has all of the advantages cited by Craig and others. The argument has almost become "if you take the .30c and change everything about it, it is better than the .327." Also, as the gun gets smaller, recoil will increase, and you might get into issues with bullet jump due to the weaker taper crimp used rather than a roll crimp. It's not a problem in the Blackhawk since it is so heavy and big relative to the round. So what next? Are we going to start custom turning rimmed .30C brass on a lathe so we can roll crimp in our custom Single Six .30C-Short?
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Exactly! They're not going to produce a new firearm that is not compatible with ALL SAAMI-spec factory ammo and there is NO way around that. There was simply no reason to fart around with the .30Carbine when all they had to do is what manufacturers have done for over a century. That is to extend an existing cartridge and increase the operating pressure. Sorry, jski, but the .327 is simply a better revolver cartridge that has all the positive attributes of the .30 without any of the shortcomings. We've now argued for five pages over what should've never even been an argument. I'm saying the same things now that I said in post #4.
 
Guys, the .30 Carbine has been around for 75 years in many guises: M1 Carbine, Blackhawk, Automag III, etc. And it'll be here 75 years from now in many guises.

Will the .327 mag. be around in 10 years? Maybe.
 
Fidel Castro stuck around for about 90 years. Does longevity equate value?;)


Sorry. That was a poor joke. But, honestly, why does it matter how long a particular cartridge has been around to deem it "better" than another? Reverse the two cartridges. If .327 had been around during a world war and had thousands and thousands of guns chambered for it, do you think .30 carbine would be off to a swift start if it had been introduced in 2008?

I really don't see the lasting appeal of .30 carbine stuffed into a revolver as a long term sales model. My guess is that in 75 years time bullet and gun technology will advance to a degree where most any revolver sold is probably going to be big ol' hunting revolvers that sling stout fat magnum bullets. Most folks will probably have gone to a semiauto for a defensive gun with only a few hangers on that like stuff that is "old school". Keep in mind, I'm 35 and generally prefer a revolver over a semiauto, but I don't have lofty ambitions of voicing my gun of choice at 110 years of age;)

I'm not saying that there won't be revolvers or revolver ammo in medium calibers. I just think that most all revolver cartridges MAY become marginalized to the point that we may even seen the venerable .357 regulated to boutique status let alone the goofy small caliber ones. Of course this is all guess work, but I don't think I would start writing a dated epitaph for either .327 or .30 carbine with indelible marker as a "known".
 
Who cares??? People use this bogus excuse all the time and they clearly have no clue about how this actually works. It's just a lame excuse, usually used by people who never would've bought the gun anyway. The guns have been manufactured by the thousands and by several manufacturers. Henry is now going to offer a levergun chambering it. If the cartridge is abandoned, it will take a lot longer than 10yrs for it to happen. Look at the .357Maximum. Only a handful of guns were produced in the chambering and the most popular, the Ruger Maximum, was not only discontinued a short time later but also recalled. Yet, people have no problem feeding them. Jamison and Starline both produce brass and Jamison produces loaded ammo.Hell, if anything is on its way out, it's the .30Carbine as a handgun cartridge.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/481610

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/357-357-MAXIMUM/

If you're 'that' worried about this non-issue, buy 1000rds of Starline brass and forget about it. Worst case, you end up with a really nice .32H&R.
https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/327--Federal-Mag/
 
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