Could the 300 WSM steal the 30-06 throne?

[Kachok]

I did some reading in my handloading manual, I was supprised to see that the magnum case of the 300 WSM could duplacate 30-06 performance with less powder then the original in every bullet weight class. I know that 300 WSM brass would always be a tad more expensive to manufacture due to it's thick walls and sharp 35 degree shoulder, but for the handloader it seems to be a no brainer, and if there were a line of 06 power/recoil commercialy available it could steal the market there too. I had been told before that 06 level charges in the WSM were not accurate, but apperently the fine folks at Nosler do not agree with that, some of the most accurate loads listed were in the 06 power range.
I am fully expecting the short mag haters to bombard me with hate mail, just know that I used to be one of you, and cut my teeth on old belted mags, but after trying the WSMs for myself I was highly impressed.

 

[oldgold]

Way to many 06s out there for that to ever happen. {I have four}

WSMs may stick around for a while but I doubt it. From what I've seen on the range they don't live up to the hype of more velocity or accuracy. True the do show more velocity with less powder, but the higher case prices more than offset the savings.

 

[rori]

I think the WSM 30 cal is a flash in the pan!!! Hope I'm wrong but I'm already hearing rumors about its demise. FRJ

 

[stolivar]

Its a dead horse

It just hasn't fallen down quite yet.


steve

 

[jmr40]

The 300 WSM is one of the biggest sellers and has replaced my 30-06 as my go to rifle. The round has a lot going for it and will only grow in popularity. The 30-06 will be around for a long time and will not be replaced by the 300 WSM. But I do see the 300 WSM making the 300 WM obsolete for the same reason the 300 WM has made the 300 H&H mag a minor player. I simply cannot see why anyone would choose a 300 WM over the WSM.

My 300 WSM is getting 98-99% of the velocity of a 300 WM, but with only 88% of the recoil. In fact the recoil is roughly the same as a hot loaded 30-06. And it does it in a 308 sized rifle, with a shorter barrel than a 300 WM. The case design burns powder more efficiently. Meaning you need less powder to get equal velocity, which also reduces recoil. The 300 WSM is also accurate. I'm consistently shooting 1/2" five shot groups with my Winchester Classic.

The new 1000 yard record was recently set with a 300 WSM. Ten shots at 1000 yards into 2.815".

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...oots-2-815-record-at-1000-yards-with-300-wsm/

I have always liked the 30-06, and there will always be one in my safe. But when I can get 200-400 more fps, give up no accuracy, get no more recoil, and have a smaller more compact rifle, I'll take it.

The only downside is the cost of factory ammo. Since I handload it is not an issue, in fact a big plus since I don't have to deal with the silly, useless belt on the traditional magnum rounds.

 

[Walkalong]

I believe the .300 WSM is here for a while, if not to stay. The older crowd might not be buying them much, but the younger crowd is, and for good reason I think.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

There are 3 very good WSM rounds (270, 7mm, and 300)...the 270 and 300 will be around for a while, likely permanently.

I have shot the 270 and 7mm, but not the 300...I don't own any of them and probably never will. I'm not saying I don't like them, just that I don't need them. I have a 270 Win, 30-06, 300 Win Mag, and a 280 AI...

If I were to go buy one...it would be the 7mm.

Will the 300 "replace" the 30-06, not anytime soon, if ever. It might replace the 300 Win Mag though...

 

[Kachok]

While I have my doubts about the 325 and 7mm WSM I HIGHLY doubt the 270 or 300 WSM are going anywhere any time soon. They have been around for over a decade now and more and more manufactures are adding them to their lineup, for example TC just added them this year. I think every US and Japaneese manufactuer carriers them now. After using 7mm Rem mags and 270s my entire life I tried a 270 WSM because I found a steal on one, it was every bit as good as my best 7mm or 270 win in a smaller lighter package with less recoil (then my 7mm), my buddie who has also used belted magnums his whole life borrowed it for a trip and he was also thrilled with it and offerd to buy it from me for retail. None of the handloads I tried shot over 1.5 MOA and Ballistic tips where touching holes @100 I am thrilled to say the least. So they are not all hype as some would say.
I don't think that WSM power is needed for deer hunting, but the trajectory, accuracy and knockdown are well worth the extra price for brass and powder. I wish I would have taken pictures of the exit wounds on those deer this year, you could put your fist through them, needless to say no tracking was needed Every bit as potent as the 7mm mag for sure.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I just don't get why the 7mm WSM isn't catching like the 270 and 300...its much easier on barrels than the 7mm Rem Mag.

I know when people get attached to a round they stick to it and defend it madly...but in the case of the 7mm Rem Mag (one of the worst barrel burners made, only the Rem Ultra Mags are worse)...I just don't see the point.

 

[Kachok]

I never noticed any major throat errosion in my 7mm Rem Mags, but I usualy horse trade them before they get over 1,000+ rds through the barrel. The only issue with the 7mm WSM is the short neck, not ideal for long 160gr+ bullets. I don't see the 7mm WSM surpassing the Rem mag, but I can easly see the 270 WSM doing it since long necks are not needed for the 130-150gr bullets that the 270 likes. As far as the 300s I would perfer the WSM over the Win mag, even though at max load the old win mag has a few more fps, burning alot more powder mind you.

 

[MistWolf]

If anything dethrones the 30-06, it will be the 308.

It will take more than pure performance for a cartridge to become as popular as the 308, 30-06 and the 223/5.56. One of the things the WSM has going against it is it's awkward size. What is the magazine capacity of a WSM? usually it's three rounds because of the girth of the cartridge. The capacity can be expanded but it will disturb the slim lines of the rifle. While having a magazine capacity may not be a big deal in reality, it does not set well with most shooters. Take a look at what rifles sell the best- the magic number for magazine capacity is 5, either as a true 5 round mag or a 4+1. 3+1 capacity rifles do not sell as well even in popular calibers. I agree with those that feel if the 300 WSM were to replace any caliber, it would be the 300 Win Mag

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I guess it all depends on how much shooting a person does...most folks shoot their rifles less than 50 rounds per year I imagine. I'm primarily a hunter but I like a round that will reach out a ways and I do practice a bit out there...I have worn out and replaced 6 barrels in the last 12 years (308 and 300 Win Mag)...I just this year settled on a compromise between the 2...the 30-06, a new Win M70...I fully expect it to be the last rifle I will ever buy.

My point is that while I'm no competition shooter, barrel wear does matter to me...I get attached to a rifle and will replace the barrel when necessary but I don't wanna do it any more than I have to if you know what I mean...due to that, I had a very short affair with the 7mm Rem Mag.

 

[Kachok]

Due to the sharper angle of the shoulder I would imagine the WSM would also have less throat errosion then the 06 at similar powder levels. Now a 30-06 AI should have even less due to it's even sharper 40 degree shoulder, but for some unknown reason the 30-06 AI does not handle some bullet weight well, I cannot figure out why.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I researched that very thing...to the best of my ability anyway (I don't have fancy equipment or anything...but on a good day I'm smarter than your average hillbilly, LOL)

Throat wear is supposedly due in large part to the amount of powder being pushed through the throat...the caliber also matters, but were discussing 30's here so we'll leave that part out.

Case capacity for the 300 WSM is somewhere around 80 grains IIRC, for the 30-06 its a bit under 70...and due to the bigger "combustion chamber" of the 300, I think you'd still be pushing more powder with the 300 to get the 30-06 velocity...based on Hodgdens load data, this is true....

Splitting hairs...yes, but keep in mind...I was researching what I knew was probably going to be my last hunting rifle, "the one" if you will...I tried to analyze everything as best I knew how, including shooting the WSM's. I couldn't get my hands on a 300 though...I hunted with a borrowed 7mm and killed a very nice 8 point buck with it. I also did a bit of shooting with the 270 WSM (same friend owns both rifles)

I'm not convinced about the sharper shoulder angle making that much of a difference on throat wear...and thats how I decided on the ole 30-06, a round I have never in my 38 years (almost 39, 30 of them shooting) took the time to try mostly because it was "common"...my first extended range gun was a 25-06 when I was just a kid (another barrel burner).

The 30-06 may or may not be perfect...but based on what I know (which is far from everything), its close enough for me...and as Whelen said, the 30-06 is never a mistake. There were other factors involved also...the cost of brass, the bullet weight I shoot (165-168 grains), powder selection, magazine capacity, etc.

In a nutshell...I did do my homework, and made the decision based on some experience...Was I right? I don't know...but I am satisfied with the 30-06, shoulda tried it years ago.

 

[Kachok]

The shoulder angle does make a difference, and I will explain why. throat errosion is created my heat and abrasion from the gun powder. The shoulder makes a focal point that creates turbulance, that turbulant flow crates higher speed vortex flow which makes for more abrasion to the throat. Sharper shoulder angle moves that focal point backward into the neck of the brass rather then the throat of the bore. Look at the worst barrel burners in the buisness and you will see they are all heavly overbore with a focal point past or right at the end of neck of the brass (264 win mag for example)
If you look at a barrel that is badly burnt out you will see that the errosion is only heavy in the first inch or less and the rest of the bore is usualy fine. This points out the damage the vortex flow creates.
Think about it the 7mm Rem mag, 264 win mag, and 300 Win mag all have focal points past the neck of the brass, and they are all well known barrel burners. While the 243/260/280/06 AI and WSMs are and a couple of the Wby mags are just as overbore and they have not developed that reputation.

 

[LoonWulf]

You know...were still talking some 1000-1500 rnds MIN before throat erosion will make a big difference in useable accuracy on the average sporting rifle. I honestly think most bores are damaged in some other way before erosion becomes a real issue.

I think the real issue the WSMs in general have to overcome is they dont offer enough difference from tried and true calibers to justify their expense and hassle (this dosnt mean i dont want one). Out here in hawaii, if a shop has ammo its got 06, or .300 WM, for a semi reasonable price...or its sold out lol. One might have WSMs of any form, they will be expensive, and they will be limited in bullet selection.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

That I agree with...the focal point and all, I mean (I should have worded my post better up there)

But I think powder charge vs bore size plays a bigger part in throat erosion...and when you factor in brass cost, powder selection, bullet weight you plan on using, mag capacity...it pointed me the other way.

Please be assured...I'm not bad mouthing the 300 or any of the WSM's, I'm just debating with you on the merits between buying a 300 vs the 30-06...not to justify my purchase, but simply because I recently went through the process of making that decision...sharing the experience so to speak...what was right for me may be wrong for somebody else though.

There was one other factor I haven't mentioned yet...If I had bought a 300 WSM, I would have loaded it to 300 WSM levels...I know me, LOL. That would have been more than I needed...and would have negated the whole idea of not replacing barrels any more than I have to.

My final conclusion was that there is probably not much difference between the 300 and 30-06 in barrel wear...but the 30-06 probably will last a bit longer.

Good discussion...

 

[Kachok]

I don't care too much for limited bullet selection, because even if my reloading press broke the winchester 130gr BTs are about the perfect deer bullet (though meat damage my be excessive if you hit the shoulder) every single deer has been bang flop, DRT! And the 140gr accubonds are perfect for anything bigger then that. I was impressed by the accuracy of factory 130gr Ballistic Tips, I can match it with my handloads but really touching holes @100 is all the accuracy you will ever need in the field. I am sure the 300 is just as accurate.

 

[Kachok]

That I agree with...the focal point and all, I mean (I should have worded my post better up there)

But I think powder charge vs bore size plays a bigger part in throat erosion...and when you factor in brass cost, powder selection, bullet weight you plan on using, mag capacity...it pointed me the other way.

Please be assured...I'm not bad mouthing the 300 or any of the WSM's, I'm just debating with you on the merits between buying a 300 vs the 30-06...not to justify my purchase, but simply because I recently went through the process of making that decision...sharing the experience so to speak...what was right for me may be wrong for somebody else though.

There was one other factor I haven't mentioned yet...If I had bought a 300 WSM, I would have loaded it to 300 WSM levels...I know me, LOL. That would have been more than I needed...and would have negated the whole idea of not replacing barrels any more than I have to.

My final conclusion was that there is probably not much difference between the 300 and 30-06 in barrel wear...but the 30-06 probably will last a bit longer.

Good discussion...

Oh don't get me wrong, you will NEVER hear me badmouth the 06, it is a fantastic round! The fact that it took so long to develop a round that can match it in every catagory speaks volumes to it's design. It is one of my all time favorites and shall remain so I assure you. And the one round that I love even more then the 06 and WSMs is my 6.5x55 which by every messure is an 06 downsized 1/3. They launch bullets of the same SD at the same speed, but the 6.5x55 is more ideal for deer sized game while the 06 is more ideal for caribou/elk caliber.
Any expernced shooter could hunt the whole of north America and would probably not notice the difference the 06 and 300 WSM given proper bullet selection, I am just splitting hairs here.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

When it comes to Ballistic Tips...we agree 100%...I shoot the 168 grain flavor.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I did give serious thought to the 300 WSM...I wanted it to be "the one", but my decision (for once in my life) was not based on muzzle velocity alone.

I'm gonna go eat, I'll check back in shortly...

 

[Geno]

Kachok:

I always have liked this type of thread, because they (collectively) challenge me think before I type. I have thought considerably about alternatives to the traditional .25-06 Rem, .270 Win and .30-06 Sprg/.300 Win Mag. For that reason, I have owned the following calibers in Weathery Mark V rifles: .257 Wea Mag, .270 Wea Mag and .300 Wea Mag.

Since the introduction of the WSM, I have read repeated commentary by published professionals regarding the WSM's "...short, fat cartridges offering up best accuracy, and burning less powder...". I am left reflecting on the .22 BR and 6mm BR. Are these BR cartridges more accurate, and do they achieve a point of powder rationality (meaning the most accuracy for the powder expended)...yes. Actually, those same have been referenced in many of the articles I have read.

That acknowledged, when the new Winchester Short Magnums hit the market (and do not forget the WSSMs), my immediate reaction was "flash-in-the-pan". Remember the Remington Ultra Magnums?!?!?! They offered up maximum powder, maximum velocity. True enough, they did (do). That impression (in part), has kept me from purchasing one of the WSMs. The other rationale for which I have not given-in to the new WSM, is the fact that their recoil equal to the alternative magnums (think H&H, Rem, Wea and Win), and other that are readily available.

Me not being clairvoyant, I simply cannot say what will become of the original and alternative cartridges, but I can say that I seek-out those cartridges that are readily available. Supply and demand, effects (drives) price, but demand and actual usage drives (sustained) offering (think .264 Win Mag). Given that there are tens of thousands of .30-06s in use, I doubt that the .300 WSM will supplant it, or the .300 Win Mag or .300 Wea Mag. That acknowledged, it is certain that the WSMs continue to supplement the aforementioned alternatives.

Sorry if I have gone off the deep end, philosophically, but we Ph.D.s do tend to do so. I look to a point of rationality, and availability. For me, the .308 Win, the .30-06 Sprg and the .300 Win Mag rule as co-equal kings of the hill.

Thanks for starting the thread. It was a fun read, and an opportunity to reflect.

Geno

 

[smokey262]

If the types of used brass at the range I go to is any indication, and I truly believe it is, then nothing will ever top the 30-06, 270, 30-30, 243, 308, 7mm Rem Mag, and 300 Win Mag. This especially true prior to hunting season when the above cartridges outnumber the others maybe 25 to 1, and it is all store bought loads too.

Don't forget Walmart pricing on the basics above is far far cheaper than the WSM's and many other less popular cartridges

 

[Kachok]

LOL. The way I see it is that everyone should have a genral purpose hunting rifle (308, 30-06, 260, 6.5x55....etc) and a rifle for very long range hunting if needed (7mm rem mag, 270 WSM, 300 WSM, 257 Wby) I don't use my 270 WSM in the brush because it blows up too much meat up close and i don't use my 6.5x55 in the bean field because I have to adjust for too much windage and drop. That may sound crazy but it works for me.

 

[Kachok]

Kachok:

I always have liked this type of thread, because they (collectively) challenge me think before I type. I have thought considerably about alternatives to the traditional .25-06 Rem, .270 Win and .30-06 Sprg/.300 Win Mag. For that reason, I have owned the following calibers in Weathery Mark V rifles: .257 Wea Mag, .270 Wea Mag and .300 Wea Mag.

Since the introduction of the WSM, I have read repeated commentary by published professionals regarding the WSM's "...short, fat cartridges offering up best accuracy, and burning less powder...". I am left reflecting on the .22 BR and 6mm BR. Are these BR cartridges more accurate, and do they achieve a point of powder rationality (meaning the most accuracy for the powder expended)...yes. Actually, those same have been referenced in many of the articles I have read.

That acknowledged, when the new Winchester Short Magnums hit the market (and do not forget the WSSMs), my immediate reaction was "flash-in-the-pan". Remember the Remington Ultra Magnums?!?!?! They offered up maximum powder, maximum velocity. True enough, they did (do). That impression (in part), has kept me from purchasing one of the WSMs. The other rationale for which I have not given-in to the new WSM, is the fact that their recoil equal to the alternative magnums (think H&H, Rem, Wea and Wea), and other that are readily available.

Me not being clairvoyant, I simply cannot say what will become of the original and alternative cartridges, but I can say that I seek-out those cartridges that are readily available. Supply and demand, effects (drives) price, but demand and actual usage drives (sustained) offering (think .264 Win Mag). Given that there are tens of thousands of .30-06s in use, I doubt that the .300 WSM will supplant it, or the .300 Win Mag or .300 Wea Mag. That acknowledged, it is certain that the WSMs continue to supplement the aforementioned alternatives.

Sorry if I have gone off the deep end, philosophically, but we Ph.D.s do tend to do so. I look to a point of rationality, and availability. For me, the .308 Win, the .30-06 Sprg and the .300 Win Mag rule as co-equal kings of the hill.

Thanks for starting the thread. It was a fun read, and an opportunity to reflect.

Geno

At first I thought the WSMs were a flash in the pan too. But when I flet the dramatic reduction in recoil and weight without loosing downrange performance (vs my 7mm rem mags), I was sold. The performance on game has been dramatic, I have never had to track anything shot by one of my rifles, but the WSM has been bang flop terminal performance in all but once case. (six point went about 12 feet before dropping, trademark Ballistic Tip fist sized hole through his vitals)