Could the 300 WSM steal the 30-06 throne?

[d2wing]

Interesting but trophy hunters do not reflect gun buyers either as most of those do not come from typical hunting but are dominated by high dollar specialized hunts. Locally 2 guys were convicted of fake trophy hunts in the last year. I am not sure that records have any meaning anymore.

 

[Kachok]

There is no replacement, for displacement. Isn't that how the old adage goes? To me, the slightly extra case capacity of the .300WM isn't enough to make me switch from my 06. And I've said it before and I say it again.....Find me any round that ISN'T based off the 06 or 03 for that matter, on the shelf at any Walmart, Orschlen's, Dickey Bub's or the like that's comparable (on the same level or better) to and.....FOR THE SAME OR CHEAPER THAN the .30-06....Can't be done. .30-06 is the king of the Non Magnums once again!

The difference in "displacement" between the 06 and 300 WSM is almost exactly the same as the difference between the 308 and 06, about 10gr with max charges.
BTW I can find 6.5x55 all over the place and it not based on a 03 or o6 case, it is older then both of them, I can buy ammo for it for less then what the cheapest 06 ammo costs at walmart 257 Roberts is still pretty popular and it is based on the 7x57 case (as is the 6mm rem). The 22-250 is based on the 250 Savage case and that has nothing to do with the 06 or any of it's kin.

 

[RevGeo]

I guess I don't understand why someone would want a cartridge that duplicates or slightly betters performance of an already existant cartridge, vis-a-vis the '06 vs 300WSM. The standard argument is that the newer cartridge fits a smaller gun - '.308 sized action'. Well, the .308 already exists and, as has been argued ad infinitum on this and other forums, almost duplicates the '06 - for hunting purposes anyway.
I started reading gun and hunting stuff back in the days of Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith. Those two guys were at extreme ends of the spectrum in their cartridge arguments, but at least they weren't arguing the differences between two cartridges that, for all intents and purposes, are the same thing.

A 180gr .30 caliber bullet going anywhere between 2700 and 2900fps is potent hunting medicine on N. American big game out to 300 yards and beyond. The rifle is much more important than the cartridge when you are comparing apples to apples.
I suppose what's going on is marketing, pure and simple. These companies need to keep introducing new product to keep making money. That is understandable, but why reinvent the wheel? Why not come up with something totally different? Could it be that the practical differences between bullets travelling around 2800fps - be they .264, .270, .284 or .308 in diameter (given similar weights) are slim to none in N. American hunting situations?
I don't doubt that the .300WSM does all the things Winchester claims, but personally I wouldn't trade a good 30-06 for one. Unless one just wants a new rifle in a caliber he lacks, it seems like a pointless endeavor.

George

 

[Bubba613]

The 30-06 has been a standard caliber for 100 years. Things like that last because they are very good at what they do. In the case of the 06 it is very very good.
When you can go into a hardware store in a small town in Wyoming and buy 300WSM and can't find 30-06 you can start talking about replacing the 06.

 

[hang fire]

Not in my lifetime. Hmmn, at my age, it could happen any day.

 

[Kachok]

I guess I don't understand why someone would want a cartridge that duplicates or slightly betters performance of an already existant cartridge, vis-a-vis the '06 vs 300WSM. The standard argument is that the newer cartridge fits a smaller gun - '.308 sized action'. Well, the .308 already exists and, as has been argued ad infinitum on this and other forums, almost duplicates the '06 - for hunting purposes anyway.
I started reading gun and hunting stuff back in the days of Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith. Those two guys were at extreme ends of the spectrum in their cartridge arguments, but at least they weren't arguing the differences between two cartridges that, for all intents and purposes, are the same thing.

A 180gr .30 caliber bullet going anywhere between 2700 and 2900fps is potent hunting medicine on N. American big game out to 300 yards and beyond. The rifle is much more important than the cartridge when you are comparing apples to apples.
I suppose what's going on is marketing, pure and simple. These companies need to keep introducing new product to keep making money. That is understandable, but why reinvent the wheel? Why not come up with something totally different? Could it be that the practical differences between bullets travelling around 2800fps - be they .264, .270, .284 or .308 in diameter (given similar weights) are slim to none in N. American hunting situations?
I don't doubt that the .300WSM does all the things Winchester claims, but personally I wouldn't trade a good 30-06 for one. Unless one just wants a new rifle in a caliber he lacks, it seems like a pointless endeavor.

George

Slightly? 100 fps and under is slightly in my book, 100-200 is very noticable, anything over 200fps difference is a whole different class, and 250fps+ difference is an @$$ whooping

 

[LoonWulf]

LOL, yep on both ends

Just a note i actually goofed with some superformance (60 grn, about .3 over but showed no pressure signs, and was MUCH easier to set on my Lee scale LOL) in my 06, a couple weeks ago. They averaged 2890 from my 24" 1903. Which actually outruns some of the loads listed for the WSM, not by much and this IS a max load for the 06, but still ..... not bad for a senior citizen.
I have actually read that when loaded long, and hot, you can hit 3050-3100 with the WSM. Ive never tried it as i dont own one.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

By my reloading manuals the 308 comes under the 06 by less then 100 fps in both 150 and 165gr loads. The difference does not become noticable until 180gr and even then it is only about a 150fps difference. Now if you want to talk 200 and 220 gr sure the 06 ownes it outright. The difference between the two in powder charges is very noticable. According to Nosler a 308 can drive a 180gr bullet to 2718fps with only 44gr of IMR 4064, for the 06 to duplacate that it would require a minimum of 54gr of powder, and for it to get that extra 150fps it would take a whopping 61gr of RL22, which is well into 300 WSM territory as far as powder charges go. (both were messured in 24" barrels w 1:10" twist) BTW with the same 61 gr charge (N550) the 300 WSM is quoted at 2976fps vs the 2872 for the 06.

Note also that the SAAMI max pressure for the .30-06 is siginificantly lower than for the .308. Loaded to equal pressures -- which is perfectly safe in identical rifles -- the .30-06 really pulls ahead.

 

[Kachok]

Note also that the SAAMI max pressure for the .30-06 is siginificantly lower than for the .308. Loaded to equal pressures -- which is perfectly safe in identical rifles -- the .30-06 really pulls ahead.

Brass construction also has something to do with safe pressures as well not just the action. My 6.5x55 is a modern action but I don't try to load it to 65,000 psi just bacause my magnum can handle it.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

30-06 brass can handle it...even in a coned breech M70.

 

[Gtscotty]

I guess I don't understand why someone would want a cartridge that duplicates or slightly betters performance of an already existant cartridge, vis-a-vis the '06 vs 300WSM. The standard argument is that the newer cartridge fits a smaller gun - '.308 sized action'. Well, the .308 already exists and, as has been argued ad infinitum on this and other forums, almost duplicates the '06 - for hunting purposes anyway.
I started reading gun and hunting stuff back in the days of Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith. Those two guys were at extreme ends of the spectrum in their cartridge arguments, but at least they weren't arguing the differences between two cartridges that, for all intents and purposes, are the same thing.

A 180gr .30 caliber bullet going anywhere between 2700 and 2900fps is potent hunting medicine on N. American big game out to 300 yards and beyond. The rifle is much more important than the cartridge when you are comparing apples to apples.
I suppose what's going on is marketing, pure and simple. These companies need to keep introducing new product to keep making money. That is understandable, but why reinvent the wheel? Why not come up with something totally different? Could it be that the practical differences between bullets travelling around 2800fps - be they .264, .270, .284 or .308 in diameter (given similar weights) are slim to none in N. American hunting situations?
I don't doubt that the .300WSM does all the things Winchester claims, but personally I wouldn't trade a good 30-06 for one. Unless one just wants a new rifle in a caliber he lacks, it seems like a pointless endeavor.

George

As much as I enjoy a good caliber discussion, this is the truth of the matter.

If you're using good bullets, all of the main hunting calibers .257 - .300 are going to do the job on the grand majority of non-dangerous game animals in a very similar fashion. Sure some calibers shoot slightly flatter, but that is only really going to make a difference (however small) for the relatively tiny percentage of hunting shots that run over 350 yds.

All this said, I don't think there is anything wrong with liking to try different calibers, I'm kind of prone to eclectic caliber tastes myself.

Slightly? 100 fps and under is slightly in my book, 100-200 is very noticable, anything over 200fps difference is a whole different class

I think that was kind of his point, even 200 fps is only a 7% increase, and a deer/hog/sheep/elk is never ever going to know the difference..... Therefore for the purpose of hunting, the on-game difference between these two IS slight.

Brass construction also has something to do with safe pressures as well not just the action. My 6.5x55 is a modern action but I don't try to load it to 65,000 psi just bacause my magnum can handle it.

The head/web area on 270 and 30-06 is exactly the same, they are just necked and trimmed to slightly different size... Given that 270 Winchester is rated to 65k psi, I'm not concerned about pushing 61k or 62k in my 30-06. ymmv

I personally believe that both 270 WSM and 300 WSM have established a strong enough user base that they will persist, and remain viable cartridge choices for a long time. I do not however think that they will ever replace the .308 or 30-06, both of those cartridges (along with 270, 7mm, etc), have proven time and time again that they are plenty for most game at semi-reasonable (and even unreasonable) distances. The 300 WSM doesn't really add anything that was sorely missing prior to its entry, it is just the most recent in a long line of excellent hunting cartridges.

 

[Dr T]

The way my rifles are sighted in, each 100 fps equates to about 10 yards in point blank range. Since most game is shot at under 150 yards on our ranch, I don't worry about it.

 

[Kachok]

As I said every comparison between two world class cartages (especily of the same caliber) would come down to splitting hairs, a few % more speed and almost 1/5th more energy, with similar powder charges is about as dramatic as an advantage goes in this kind of thing.

 

[sage5907]

The only way to improve a 30-06 is to clean it once in a while. Get your reloading manual out and look at the list of near defuct 30 caliber cartridges. 300 Savage, 307 Winchester, 30-40 Craig, 300 H&H Magnum, 308 Norma Magnum and 300 Weatherby Magnum. It won't be but just a few years before the 300 WSM is among this group. There are two many 30-06 and 308 Winchester rifles on the market for the others to compete. The 300 WSM is just a fad cartridge and only the novice shooter will pay $51 for a box of ammo. BW

 

[LoonWulf]

Or handloaders who think its a damn neat round, or guys who can actually USE the extra 150fps, but dont want to or cant deal with the extra recoil of the .300wm. I personally think the .308 Norma is the best .30 magnum around, why? because i do

 

[sage5907]

LoonWulf, I agree that the 308 Norma is one of the best 30 magnums around. I would far rather have one than the 300 WSM. BW

 

[Kachok]

The only way to improve a 30-06 is to clean it once in a while. Get your reloading manual out and look at the list of near defuct 30 caliber cartridges. 300 Savage, 307 Winchester, 30-40 Craig, 300 H&H Magnum, 308 Norma Magnum and 300 Weatherby Magnum. It won't be but just a few years before the 300 WSM is among this group. There are two many 30-06 and 308 Winchester rifles on the market for the others to compete. The 300 WSM is just a fad cartridge and only the novice shooter will pay $51 for a box of ammo. BW

Utter BS first of all everywhere I have seen WSM ammo costs the same as 7mm rem mag. I have bought WSM fussions for $25 a box. Why on earth would anyone think the WSMs are dying off? The Naysayers have been saying that nonsence for over a decade now, all the while they have become more popular then ever. As I have said before, now you can find a variety of WSM ammo at any po dunk waklmart. BTW here is some 300 WSM fussions for $34.99 a box, more then I paid but well under that $51 nonsence you were talking about. ww.midwayusa.com/product/231985/federal-fusion-ammunition-300-winchester-short-magnum-wsm-165-grain-spitzer-boat-tail-box-of-20
BTW the 300 Wby is NOT dead, they are still going strong, I know several people that swear by their Wby, even if they have to go to a real gun store to find ammo.

 

[LoonWulf]

300 WSM here is 35 dollars a box at sports authority, they have it all the time, but thats because it dosnt get bought much. The only other place that has them is 50-60bucks a box for fusions...seriously. If i remember correctly, they had some TSX at 75 bucks or so...next time im at the gun stores ill take pictures .300WBY is 60ish+ (ive seen boxes at 100 bucks).

 

[jnoble87]

The difference in "displacement" between the 06 and 300 WSM is almost exactly the same as the difference between the 308 and 06, about 10gr with max charges.
BTW I can find 6.5x55 all over the place and it not based on a 03 or o6 case, it is older then both of them, I can buy ammo for it for less then what the cheapest 06 ammo costs at walmart 257 Roberts is still pretty popular and it is based on the 7x57 case (as is the 6mm rem). The 22-250 is based on the 250 Savage case and that has nothing to do with the 06 or any of it's kin.

I'm not going to knock the effectiveness of the 6.5x55mm rounds, but how can you compare something that's almost 800 pounds of energy and anywhere between 100-400 fps off the .30-06 factory loads? It's not even on the same plane of existence with the Springfield rounds. But then you dip into quarter bore rounds....Sure they're fast, but...You might as well be bringing a knife to the proverbial gun fight. I'm impressed that you can find said ammo for cheaper than Walmart's cheapest...Although, you'd have to make a believer out of me, considering Walmart's cheapest 06 ammo retails for right around 15 dollars for a box of 20.

As far as the 300WSM going anywhere...Nah, I doubt it. It's not a gimmick or a ruse. It's a tried and true round that gets results...Still not going to replace the 06 ANY TIME SOON.

 

[Kachok]

I'm not going to knock the effectiveness of the 6.5x55mm rounds, but how can you compare something that's almost 800 pounds of energy and anywhere between 100-400 fps off the .30-06 factory loads? It's not even on the same plane of existence with the Springfield rounds. But then you dip into quarter bore rounds....Sure they're fast, but...You might as well be bringing a knife to the proverbial gun fight. I'm impressed that you can find said ammo for cheaper than Walmart's cheapest...Although, you'd have to make a believer out of me, considering Walmart's cheapest 06 ammo retails for right around 15 dollars for a box of 20.

As far as the 300WSM going anywhere...Nah, I doubt it. It's not a gimmick or a ruse. It's a tried and true round that gets results...Still not going to replace the 06 ANY TIME SOON.

Very wrong sir, I load 6.5x55 120s over 3000fps and 140s to 2800fps (2400 ft/lbs not overpressure loads), yeah it is not 30 cal energy but it easly shoots flatter with less drift then the 06. Now I can load the 06 to similar external performance, but the old sweed still holds a slight edge. It may be 120 years old but much like the 06 it has not gatherd any dust.
Some people have claimed as high as 3100 fps with 140s making 3000 ft lbs (compressed RL22 loads) but I don't want any chance of damaging my gun.
Anyone who loads 6.5x55 in a modern action can tell you about how much higher performance you can get vs the majority of facory ammo that is loaded for 96 mauser pressures (aka small ring mauser)

 

[BrocLuno]

Nope, cause it won't fit in a Mil-Surp rifle

 

[Kachok]

Nothing aginast mil-surp rifles, many hunters and long ranged shooters perfer modern rifles. Not only are they lighter and more compact, but 99% of the time they are more accurate. I will make special note here that the 1903, M98 and M38 are well known for being very accurate, though thery are still much longer and heavier then any 110 or T3.

 

[jnoble87]

Very wrong sir, I load 6.5x55 120s over 3000fps and 140s to 2800fps (2400 ft/lbs not overpressure loads), yeah it is not 30 cal energy but it easly shoots flatter with less drift then the 06. Now I can load the 06 to similar external performance, but the old sweed still holds a slight edge. It may be 120 years old but much like the 06 it has not gatherd any dust.
Some people have claimed as high as 3100 fps with 140s making 3000 ft lbs (compressed RL22 loads) but I don't want any chance of damaging my gun.
Anyone who loads 6.5x55 in a modern action can tell you about how much higher performance you can get vs the majority of facory ammo that is loaded for 96 mauser pressures (aka small ring mauser)

Like I said before...I'm not knocking the 6.5 for what it is. It's a helluva round with a long history and reputation that precedes it. Sure, it flies flatter and you agree its not 30 cal energy. But since we're talking..Factory loads...Sure you yourself could load the 6.5 cartridge to the moon and then some, but you could do the same with the .30-06..But to the average person, the average hunter..We're talkin average Joe from Kokamo...He's gonna buy some off the shelf ammo, most likely mid to even higher grade ammo. He's not going to worry about Ballistic Coefficients and Sectional Density..Dead is dead to this guy. It's money that matters and availability. Not superior ballistics and numbers. We're talking the general consumer.

I personally, would choose the 6.5 over the 06 if I was punching paper or taking human game (theoretically speaking of course). But we're talking splitting hairs on accuracy here when hunting 4 legged game, and the price for the 06 is just right. Millions of hunters and sharp shooters however agree, the 06 is, just like the 6.5x55...Old technology that is still superior to new tech all day long. For being 106 and 121 years of age respectively..Both ain't too shabby, eh?

And anyone who seriously loads both rounds to the hilt with the strongest powder they can find, just to eek out every bit of performance they can..I call you crazy and possibly off center. I certainly hope you don't blow yourself up, lol.

 

[jnoble87]

Very wrong sir, I load 6.5x55 120s over 3000fps and 140s to 2800fps (2400 ft/lbs not overpressure loads), yeah it is not 30 cal energy but it easly shoots flatter with less drift then the 06. Now I can load the 06 to similar external performance, but the old sweed still holds a slight edge. It may be 120 years old but much like the 06 it has not gatherd any dust.
Some people have claimed as high as 3100 fps with 140s making 3000 ft lbs (compressed RL22 loads) but I don't want any chance of damaging my gun.
Anyone who loads 6.5x55 in a modern action can tell you about how much higher performance you can get vs the majority of facory ammo that is loaded for 96 mauser pressures (aka small ring mauser)

Like I said before...I'm not knocking the 6.5 for what it is. It's a helluva round with a long history and reputation that precedes it. Sure, it flies flatter and you agree its not 30 cal energy. But since we're talking..Factory loads...Sure you yourself could load the 6.5 cartridge to the moon and then some, but you could do the same with the .30-06..But to the average person, the average hunter..We're talkin average Joe from Kokamo...He's gonna buy some off the shelf ammo, most likely mid to even higher grade ammo. He's not going to worry about Ballistic Coefficients and Sectional Density..Dead is dead to this guy. It's money that matters and availability. Not superior ballistics and numbers. We're talking the general consumer.

I personally, would choose the 6.5 over the 06 if I was punching paper or taking human game (theoretically speaking of course). But we're talking splitting hairs on accuracy here when hunting 4 legged game, and the price for the 06 is just right. Millions of hunters and sharp shooters however agree, the 06 is, just like the 6.5x55...Old technology that is still superior to new tech all day long. For being 106 and 121 years of age respectively..Both ain't too shabby, eh?

And anyone who seriously loads both rounds to the hilt with the strongest powder they can find, just to eek out every bit of performance they can..I call you crazy and possibly off center. I certainly hope you don't blow yourself up, lol.

 

[Kachok]

Agreed, if I wanted 3100fps out of a 140gr 6.5 pill I would build a 264 win mag with a 29" barrel, not try to force feed a 6.5x55 case 52gr of RL22 (max is 46.5) Oh and there are rounds that are technicaly superior to the 6.5x55 too, but it is hard to get away from old faithfull no matter how nice the new Creedmore and Lapua are, there are benifits to the old sweed that you cannot technicaly score, like it's uncany ability to shoot darn near any mix matched powder, projectile, charge, and primer combonation with remarkable accuracy. I have tired all kinds of loads and not one grouped poorly!! While I have never handloaded for the 30-06 I am sure it has some similar qualities. I don't know anyone that thinks that the 06 or 6.5 are inadaquate for genral purpose hunting, but I will say that there are certainly calibers that at leased on paper have every advantage in the world over them.
Factory ammo does not mean squat to me, the prices have gone up and up and up over the past few years and I will be thrilled if I never have to buy another box of that stuff ever again. That is why I quote handload data and not factory fodder specs.