300wm or 338wm?
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B.D. Turner
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300wm is a bit strong for hogs. I see nothing wrong with the 300wm as it is one of my favorite calibers. My choice of a hog rifle is a .44 magnum many use a 30-30, .444, .35 Remington, and 300 Savage.
Since the .300 WinMag is overkill for hogs, I'm not sure what to call the .338.
Side note: (The .300 WinMag has never made sense to me. The .30-06 has significantly less recoil for close to the same performace, and half the price -- and you can load or buy hopped-up .30-06 that has pretty similar stats. If I really NEED a .300 magnum rifle cartridge, there's only one I'd get, and it's not the Winchester Magnum. It comes from California pig country, Atascadero.)
Pig hunters here use plain-ol' .30 caliber deer rifle cartridges, like the .30-30, .308 and .30-06, or brushbusting cannons like a .45-70 lever carbine. Revolvers and bows are used, too. If you are going to shoot through lots of brush, a .300 magnum will deflect or even disintegrate, same as any other spitzer-bullet cartridge.
Side note: (The .300 WinMag has never made sense to me. The .30-06 has significantly less recoil for close to the same performace, and half the price -- and you can load or buy hopped-up .30-06 that has pretty similar stats. If I really NEED a .300 magnum rifle cartridge, there's only one I'd get, and it's not the Winchester Magnum.
It comes from California pig country, Atascadero.)Pig hunters here use plain-ol' .30 caliber deer rifle cartridges, like the .30-30, .308 and .30-06, or brushbusting cannons like a .45-70 lever carbine. Revolvers and bows are used, too. If you are going to shoot through lots of brush, a .300 magnum will deflect or even disintegrate, same as any other spitzer-bullet cartridge.
Shoney
Member
I think the 300WM is over kill for hogs, except if you are taking 300-400 yard shots.
I’ve been fortunate to take a lot of elk in my life. I taken numbers of elk with 6mmRem 100gr Nosler Partition, quite a few with 30-06 (150 gr, 165 gr, 180gr, and 220 gr in at least 5 different brands) and many more with 300WM (165 gr, 180 gr, 200 gr in 5 different brands). I have also reloaded since 1960, and started using a chronograph in 1978. The best velocity 30-06 loads (by no means the most accurate) in 180grain were 14-15% less than the 300WM’s Accuracy loads. In 200 grain Nosler Partition 30-06 was 14-15% less (at best) than the 300WM accuracy load.
My field experiences with harvesting elk? The 300WM simply killed elk better and quicker and with more authority than the 30-06 at any range with any load. . . !
All the literature I’ve read, where bullets were methodically tested in their ability to get thru brush, the spire points proved better. If you know of legitimate testing where there were better brush bucking bullets than the spire point, please point them out.
I’ve been fortunate to take a lot of elk in my life. I taken numbers of elk with 6mmRem 100gr Nosler Partition, quite a few with 30-06 (150 gr, 165 gr, 180gr, and 220 gr in at least 5 different brands) and many more with 300WM (165 gr, 180 gr, 200 gr in 5 different brands). I have also reloaded since 1960, and started using a chronograph in 1978. The best velocity 30-06 loads (by no means the most accurate) in 180grain were 14-15% less than the 300WM’s Accuracy loads. In 200 grain Nosler Partition 30-06 was 14-15% less (at best) than the 300WM accuracy load.
My field experiences with harvesting elk? The 300WM simply killed elk better and quicker and with more authority than the 30-06 at any range with any load. . . !
All the literature I’ve read, where bullets were methodically tested in their ability to get thru brush, the spire points proved better. If you know of legitimate testing where there were better brush bucking bullets than the spire point, please point them out.
rangerruck
Member
the diff in felt recoil and speed of recoil between the two is about a 25 percent increase, across the board. Beware!
Unless you're hunting REALLY big hogs, both are overkill. Most anything in the .30-35 caliber range (say from 7,62x39 to 30-06 to 35 Remington) is more than enough for a 200 lb. hog, with the right bullets. If you have no other reason for a magnum, I'd suggest something with less recoil, as it will allow you to practice more without a sore shoulder. I'm building an 8m-06 AI (w/ muzzle brake, which, with handloads, can approach the power of a .338 win mag) for hog hunting (with a .35 Remington as backup), as I expect to go on a "canned hunt" in the near future, and MIGHT encounter some 400 lb hogs.) Howvever, even at that, both are probably more powerful than I really need.
Lest I be misunderstood... When I get to hunt elk, I will get a magnum rifle. I don't doubt what you're saying. The WinMag will also blast your shoulder with a lot more authority, though, so for sub-elk game, that's a lot of excessive punishment.
The tendency around here seems to be for guys to get .300 WinMags to hunt deer, because they shoot flatter out past 300 yards.
This guy was talking about pigs in California, generally considered prime .30-30 fodder, though, and asking what was "overkill."
Shoney
Member
ArmedBear: You totally skip over the reason for my post. I am sure you are an “openhearted, well intentioned, good boy in your town”, but you state these fairy tails:
My post was not about pig hunting or elk hunting, it was about curbing the perpetuation of old myths and inaccurate gossip.
jerkface11
Member
Hogzilla was killed by a single shot from a .223 so yes a .338 winmag is overkill. Of course overkill can be fun.
Okay, WRT brush, a high SD, heavy, round nose bullet does deflect less.
Jack O'Connor tried it with a lot of rounds, and he found that there is such thing as a "brushbuster" round.
He did find that the notion of "brushbusting" only works when you're shooting game that's standing in or immediately behind the bush, but that certainly is a valid pig-hunting scenario. Deflection with any bullet is too great if the game is farther behind the brush. However, if you're shooting at a pig in the bushes we have in California, a .45-70 will probably hit it, if you have a clear shot between you and the pig in the bushes, while a Spitzer will see more immediate deflection, according to O'Connor's tests. So some people use .45-70 and similar rounds to hunt pigs with.
Now, WRT the rounds, I was not clear. Yes, you can load a hot WinMag.
However, the increase in perceived recoil, which is significant since a standard .30-06 is just below the threshold that an average-sized man finds manageable with little effort, and a standard .300 WinMag is well above it, is only worth it if you need to have that extra energy at 400 yards, in my opinion (hence "never made sense to me" -- that means I probably wouldn't buy one, and would choose other calibers, myself, like the .300 Wby, that's all).
Again, for factory ammo, .300 WinMag is twice the price. Recoil is notably nastier in a similar gun. But for sub-elk-sized game at 300 yards or less, the difference in effectiveness between the rounds in the real world is minimal.
It's all about choosing wisely, as opposed to buying into the "Magnum good, everything else bad!" myth that seems to exist, far more than any myth about any given cartridge, or what happens when you hit brush.
I was not trying to spread myths. Sorry if I did.
P.S. I stay away from fairy tails altogether. And the fairies can stay the hell away from mine.
Jack O'Connor tried it with a lot of rounds, and he found that there is such thing as a "brushbuster" round.
He did find that the notion of "brushbusting" only works when you're shooting game that's standing in or immediately behind the bush, but that certainly is a valid pig-hunting scenario. Deflection with any bullet is too great if the game is farther behind the brush. However, if you're shooting at a pig in the bushes we have in California, a .45-70 will probably hit it, if you have a clear shot between you and the pig in the bushes, while a Spitzer will see more immediate deflection, according to O'Connor's tests. So some people use .45-70 and similar rounds to hunt pigs with.
Now, WRT the rounds, I was not clear. Yes, you can load a hot WinMag.
However, the increase in perceived recoil, which is significant since a standard .30-06 is just below the threshold that an average-sized man finds manageable with little effort, and a standard .300 WinMag is well above it, is only worth it if you need to have that extra energy at 400 yards, in my opinion (hence "never made sense to me" -- that means I probably wouldn't buy one, and would choose other calibers, myself, like the .300 Wby, that's all).
Again, for factory ammo, .300 WinMag is twice the price. Recoil is notably nastier in a similar gun. But for sub-elk-sized game at 300 yards or less, the difference in effectiveness between the rounds in the real world is minimal.
It's all about choosing wisely, as opposed to buying into the "Magnum good, everything else bad!" myth that seems to exist, far more than any myth about any given cartridge, or what happens when you hit brush.
I was not trying to spread myths. Sorry if I did.
P.S. I stay away from fairy tails altogether. And the fairies can stay the hell away from mine.
If you need more gun than a 30-06, wouldn't you be better served by a bigger, heavier bullet at similar speed than by the same size-and-weight bullet at higher speed? In other words, if the '06 ain't enough, you need a bigger gun.
The '06 is more than enough for hogs. Which doesn't make the 300 winmag a wrong choice, you know.
--Shannon
The '06 is more than enough for hogs. Which doesn't make the 300 winmag a wrong choice, you know.
--Shannon
Shoney
Member
AmrBear: Read this and weep
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=185343&highlight=brush+busting
Take some time, do some searches, and educate yourself.
You know not that of which you speak!
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=185343&highlight=brush+busting
Take some time, do some searches, and educate yourself.
You know not that of which you speak!
Karbon
Member
I'd say the 30-06, with heavier rounds is more than plenty. Plus it's easier on the shoulder, more available ammo, cheaper to shoot (practice) and more useful on other game.
I still have chills from the last time I shot my uncle's .338...
I still have chills from the last time I shot my uncle's .338...
Shoney:
There are two possibilities. Jack O'Connor spent a few days testing out rounds, then lied about the results, or you have a better chance hitting a pig in a bush -- not downrange somewhere, but right behind or in the bush -- where you aimed, with a high-SD round bullet than a low-SD spitzer.
Argue with his ghost, not me.
That oft-repeated story about the cape buffalo involved game that was downrange from the leaf, not right behind it. Note the line: "a third of the way toward the buffalo from where I'd fired." That agrees completely with O'Connor's results, which showed that, if you hit a stick more than a few feet from the game, any bullet would deflect enough to miss entirely, but that heavy, high-SD bullets are useful for hitting game in a bush.
Maybe O'Connor lied. Have you repeated his experiment? I haven't. I'm just going on the assumption that he had no particular reason to fabricate his results.
Northslope Nimrod
Member
For hogs: 1. 338 - Overkill....expensive rounds.
2. 300 win mag - Mucho for hogs - fairly spendy rounds.
3. 30-06 - Great for hogs. Inexpensive rounds. Less recoil.
2. 300 win mag - Mucho for hogs - fairly spendy rounds.
3. 30-06 - Great for hogs. Inexpensive rounds. Less recoil.
Shoney
Member
If indeed Jack wrote such an article, he was either mistaken, or someone is mendacious.
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Hey! Does anyone know why the patients are allowed to commit internet masturbation at “the Home”?????
Well, it's pretty easy to try it. I don't currently have a .45-70, however.
He took a deer silhouette, and shot at it with everything from .22 centerfires to 12 gauge slugs.
He put the target at different distances from the obstacle -- I forget what he used as "brush" -- and found that, past a few feet, deflection made it unlikely the target would be hit at all. But within a few feet of the obstacle, the bullet would likely hit despite deflection, maybe sideways, but it would hit the target.
And 12 Gauge slugs worked best, .220 Swift worked worst. Small, fast spitzers deflected more, and big, slow blunt bullets deflected less, and therefore would generally hit the target right behind the obstacle. All bullets were deflected enough to miss a deer-sized target more than a few feet from the brush, and no bullet could go through anything somewhere downrange and keep going straight.
Seriously, is that such a big deal?
He took a deer silhouette, and shot at it with everything from .22 centerfires to 12 gauge slugs.
He put the target at different distances from the obstacle -- I forget what he used as "brush" -- and found that, past a few feet, deflection made it unlikely the target would be hit at all. But within a few feet of the obstacle, the bullet would likely hit despite deflection, maybe sideways, but it would hit the target.
And 12 Gauge slugs worked best, .220 Swift worked worst. Small, fast spitzers deflected more, and big, slow blunt bullets deflected less, and therefore would generally hit the target right behind the obstacle. All bullets were deflected enough to miss a deer-sized target more than a few feet from the brush, and no bullet could go through anything somewhere downrange and keep going straight.
Seriously, is that such a big deal?
GooseGestapo
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I'm old enough to have read a lot of O'Connor, and I know that there has been a lot more, "Scientific" research done since then.
A lot of O'Connors analysis had to do with the construction of the bullets he had available, and possibly skewed his results.
FWIW: Most of the scientific research literature I've seen (Most of it was military in origin), concluded that high sd's combined with high rate of twist reduced the amount of deflection. Same principle applies to gyroscopes and term called "precession" and deflection.
Hence, the 5.56 shoots "pointed" heavy bullets with high rate of twist. Also have hardened steel penetrator tips.
Reckon Uncle Sam knows something about bullet deflection and penetration?
Results actually favored the 6.5's with 156gr bullets, and yes the available ones were vintage RN's because thats what was in vogue at the time, and now we know that a flat nose penetrates straighter.
Not trying to throw gasoline on the fire, but Ross Seyfried did some similar testing back in the '80's and concluded that the 7mm with 175gr spitzer did the best on a "cage" built of hardwood dowels of what he tested, and he included the 160gr Hornady RN in .264" (6.5" have slightly higher sd's, and normally 1/9 or faster twists)
BTW: In my time in the "fields" the Rem 7mag with 150 and 175's had a good reputation as a brush buster.
3,000 fps and 1/9" twist
Not exactly "Conventional Wisdom".
As to the original question: .300vs .338
To me the question of recoil is a "wash".
Recoil is roughly equal, the .300 has higher velocities, the .338 heavier bullets.
In same make/model rifle, percieved recoil will be close.
Get what you want.
Yes, both are more than neccessary for shooting pigs.
My favorite pig guns are lever actions: .30wcf, .35Rem, .45/70.
Fast handling, and rapid follow ups shots (pigs run in herds, you know!).
A lot of O'Connors analysis had to do with the construction of the bullets he had available, and possibly skewed his results.
FWIW: Most of the scientific research literature I've seen (Most of it was military in origin), concluded that high sd's combined with high rate of twist reduced the amount of deflection. Same principle applies to gyroscopes and term called "precession" and deflection.
Hence, the 5.56 shoots "pointed" heavy bullets with high rate of twist. Also have hardened steel penetrator tips.
Reckon Uncle Sam knows something about bullet deflection and penetration?
Results actually favored the 6.5's with 156gr bullets, and yes the available ones were vintage RN's because thats what was in vogue at the time, and now we know that a flat nose penetrates straighter.
Not trying to throw gasoline on the fire, but Ross Seyfried did some similar testing back in the '80's and concluded that the 7mm with 175gr spitzer did the best on a "cage" built of hardwood dowels of what he tested, and he included the 160gr Hornady RN in .264" (6.5" have slightly higher sd's, and normally 1/9 or faster twists)
BTW: In my time in the "fields" the Rem 7mag with 150 and 175's had a good reputation as a brush buster.
3,000 fps and 1/9" twist
Not exactly "Conventional Wisdom".
As to the original question: .300vs .338
To me the question of recoil is a "wash".
Recoil is roughly equal, the .300 has higher velocities, the .338 heavier bullets.
In same make/model rifle, percieved recoil will be close.
Get what you want.
Yes, both are more than neccessary for shooting pigs.
My favorite pig guns are lever actions: .30wcf, .35Rem, .45/70.
Fast handling, and rapid follow ups shots (pigs run in herds, you know!).
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