300 win mag, 338 win mag, 375 Ruger: Recoil and Balistics

[Huntolive]

Hello,

I'm about to get either a Ruger Guide Gun or Ruger Hawkeye FTW Hunter in either 300wm, 338wm, or 375 Ruger.

I'm looking for the "ballistics for dummies" comparisons of the 3
and
Felt recoil comparisons of the 3.

All these rifles come w/ a muzzle break and a good recoil pad.

I started hunting w/ 300wm and killed many deer with it and never had to follow a blood trail (LOL), and still have one, though I mostly deer hunt now w/ a Savage 220 20 G rifled slug gun, or a 308.

I want something for longer range shooting out to about 600 yards that will drop an elk or moose with relative ease, and also keep me safe in bear country. I doubt I will ever hunt in Africa, so I probably do not NEED the 375 Ruger, but it still intrigues me, and hey, who knows?. That said, I don't want to need shoulder replacement soon either.

I have no worries about recoil from 300 wm, I am used to it, plus these guns have muzl brk and shoulder pad.

What I want to know from facts and your experience is how much more uncomfortable and unmanageable the recoil is w/ 338 and 375 Ruger versus each other and versus 300wm ( think "will I need to get stitches on my face/ scope eye" or develop a bad flinch)
and
The advantages (if any) 338 and 375 have over 300 wm balistically in both reaching out to at least 500yards and killing power on medium sized to large game.

I am also interested in you opinions/experience with the Ruger Guide Gun vs the Hawkeye FTW Hunter

Thanks

 

[js8588]

Because of the short tube on the guide gun, I'd opt for the 375 which was optimized for a 20 inch barrel. The others are just going to be "sound and fury signifying nothing."

 

[Seamaster31]

I have rifles chambered in all three of these cartridges. While I personally disapprove of shooting at unwounded game at such distances I also would not presume to make that choice for anyone else. The 300 and 338 are reasonably similar in recoil and effectiveness if the bullet weights are approximately the same. The 300 shines with 200 grain pills and the 338 is just magic with a 210 and 225. If heavier game is the primary purpose the 338 really punches with authority with the 250 grain stuff.

The 375 is in a different class in both recoil and effectiveness with a 300 grain bullet and it is legal (and enough) gun for anything I can think of on this planet. It is not bad to shoot using normal field positions but I do like it a bit from prone. It may be a desirable cartridge for the largest bears but otherwise I do see much need for it in North America. I use 375 rifles only when hunting in Africa.

 

[Huntolive]

Thanks,
but is that really true that 338wm and 300wm are that similar in recoil? 300wm generates around 26 ft lbs, while it seems 338wm generates 35 ft lbs, so what does that FEEL like?

How bad is the 375 Ruger, I'm very tempted to go for that, but think the 338 might be more practicle to get accurate with, and the 300wm would be a cream puff with the muzl brk and recoil pad in the heavy gun, and thus have potential increase in accuracy. What does 375 kick feel like?

 

[Robert]

My 9 lbs 375 H&H is most pleasant to shoot. The 375 Ruger is a tad bit faster and flatter shoot than the H&H but fits in a standard length action. The 375 will allow for less than perfect shots, and will easily penetrate end to end on an elk. And it'll do less meat damage. It can be loaded down to 30-06 levels or hot rodded. It really is a 21st century 375 H&H.

 

[jmr40]

If you already have a 300 WM there is no reason for another. The 338 doesn't offer much, if any advantage over the 300 WM, so that leaves the 375 by default. But if your goal is to hit and kill elk or moose at 600 yards the 300 you have is the better option and is more than enough for bear protection. You probably wouldn't want to use the same loads for 600 yard elk that you'd use for a 60 yard shot at a bear, but that is why they make different loads.

I don't need one,but I do like the idea of a 375. It is the smallest gun capable of taking anything in Africa, and yet not so harsh on recoil that most people can't master. It is certainly more gun than needed for anything here, but with the right loads still effective and manageable. It shoots flat enough, (similar to 180 gr 30-06 out to about 400) to make hits at ranges longer than most people need to shoot. But 600 yards is starting to be extreme range. I'm not good enough to shoot game that far away. But if I were 375 would be way down my list.

In the same weight rifles a 375 is pretty stout recoil wise, but since most 375 rifles tend to be quite a bit heavier it does help.

In 8 lb rifles the 300 will have about 33 ft lbs recoil, a 338 about 38 ft lbs, and the 375 about 43. But from a 9 lb rifle 375 will split the difference between 300 and 338.

 

[.308 Norma]

Thanks,
but is that really true that 338wm and 300wm are that similar in recoil? 300wm generates around 26 ft lbs, while it seems 338wm generates 35 ft lbs, so what does that FEEL like?

The math doesn't lie, right?
Actually, when it comes to "felt" recoil, I think it does.
I have (had) both a 300WM and a 338WM. And while I'm pretty sure your figures of 26 ft lbs for the 300, and 35 ft lbs for the 338 are correct, I don't believe they tell the whole story.
My 300WM (which is nearly identical ballistic-wise to the 308 Norma Mag I now have and love) felt like it kick harder than my 338. I'm just guessing here, but I think that's because a 300WM has a faster recoil than a 338WM, regardless of what the ft lbs of recoil energy are on paper.

My 9 lbs 375 H&H is most pleasant to shoot.

Furthermore, that's hardly the first time I've heard what Robert said about the 375 H&H. In fact, I've heard it so many times that I now wish I'd have opted for a 375 H&H when I had my 338 Win Mag built. I don't need either one, as my 308 Norma Mag does everything I want it to and more. But back in the day, I wanted what I figured would be the optimum elk rifle that would suffice for bears if I ever got a chance for an Alaska hunt, so I had a 338 Win Mag built. A few years later, I decided (for what reason I don't know) I needed a flatter shooting 300WM.
The 300WM shot flatter alright, but I thought it kicked harder too...not enough to detour me from having my 308 Norma Mag (my retirement gift to myself) built a few years after that, but it did feel like it kicked harder than my 338WM, as does my 308 Norma Mag.

 

[silicosys4]

I'll second the more pleasant recoil of a .375.

I haven't shot a .338, so I can't speak to that,
But my #1 in .375 H&H with a limbsaver pad is very easy to shoot even heavy loads with.
I would say the closest approximation is a 30-06. I expected a lot more recoil the first time I shot it, but everyone I've let shoot it has said it recoils more like a 30-06 or .270 even, than what you'd expect from an "elephant rifle".

I would MUCH rather sit down and shoot 25 rounds of .375 H&H than my 300 WM. I have an M70 stainless classic in 300 WM and it is just painful to shoot.

 

[LoonWulf]

Thanks,
but is that really true that 338wm and 300wm are that similar in recoil? 300wm generates around 26 ft lbs, while it seems 338wm generates 35 ft lbs, so what does that FEEL like?

How bad is the 375 Ruger, I'm very tempted to go for that, but think the 338 might be more practicle to get accurate with, and the 300wm would be a cream puff with the muzl brk and recoil pad in the heavy gun, and thus have potential increase in accuracy. What does 375 kick feel like?

I shoot an 8 1/4lb Browning Abolt in .375 Ruger. 270gr speers at 2800 and change.
Recoil is slower, but significantly heavier, than an equal weight .300 shooting 208s at 2900.

To me .300s hurt, the .375 recoils significantly, but dosent hurt. I'm with the others and much more willing to eat 20rnds from my .375 prone than the equal weight .300wm Hawkeye I had.
This is mostly that since I built(assembled) the rifle, it's fitted to me and has a big, squishy, kickeez pad on it.

Stock fit and design , as well as squishy pads make a world of difference in terms of comfort. I also had a 7.5lb .300WM Savage, in a thumbhole stock with a limbsavers pad, that was very pleasant to shoot with 180s at 3100.

The .375 Ruger would not be my choice for long range work, but with a 260-270 btsp the trajectory about mimics a 180 from a .30-06. it also delivers a significant whollop on arrival. I've shot rocks with mine out to 350-400yds, making hits isn't that hard, but it's alot easier with my 7mm. I'm not sure I'd take a 500yd shot without quite a bit of practice, and a good wind dope.

 

[Huntolive]

Thanks so I hear people saying the 375 H&H is smoother shooting than expected but what about the 375 Ruger?

also what about the capability and killing power out at 500 yards and bullet drop for 3 3/8 vs 300 vs 375 Ruger?

Also can anyone answer my question please about the Ruger Guide Gun versus the Ruger Hawkeye FTW Hunter which has a 22-inch Barrel depending on the caliber?

I think at this point I'm leaning against the 300 Win Mag especially since I already have one, but I'm not sure about that since another way of looking at it is that since I have one and have ammo for it I wouldn't have to fool with another caliber and Lord knows the bullets are a lot less expensive

 

[silicosys4]

Thanks so I hear people saying the 375 H&H is smoother shooting than expected but what about the 375 Ruger?

The .375 H&H and the .375 Ruger are close enough in terms of performance that out of the same rifle I doubt you'd notice the difference either way, but I haven't shot the Ruger, only the H&H. They are mostly neck in neck according to Hornady's manual, with the Ruger gaining 50-100 fps in a few loads. From what I'm reading in my loading manual, in many loads the Ruger gets the same performance as the H&H with a few grains less powder, so its more efficient, not necessarily heavier recoiling.

The .375 can be loaded with some pretty pointy bullets,

SMK 350 gr., that takes the effective range of a .375 pretty far out there even at the modest velocities a .375 H&H or Ruger would launch them, but I don't know how well the .375 Ruger bolt rifle would handle that load. I have a Ruger #1 so cartridge length isn't an issue for me.

Thats getting pretty outside of the comfort zone for the .375's, the 500yds + game with factory available ammo is more in the wheelhouse of the .30 and .338, although the .375 will do it and will do it better than you'd think, while carrying a lot of energy.

Cant speak to the quality of the different Ruger rifles. Rumor has it the Guide Gun is a better Ruger than the Hawkeye, but i'm just passing along rumors.

Edit: Sorry, Wulf, you quoted me while I was making a few edits, wasn't intentional

 

[LoonWulf]

The .375 H&H and the .375 Ruger are close enough in terms of performance that out of the same rifle I doubt you'd notice the difference either way, but I haven't shot the Ruger, only the H&H. Only about 75-100 fps separate them in most loadings, from what I'm reading in my loading manual

Some data pushes that to 200fps or more depending on barrel length.

I can't speak to the fwt or guide gun, but my abolt has a 23" barrel, and I doubt you loose very much from a 22"

Personally I skipped straight over the smaller medium bore rifles specifically because I WANTED a .375
I don't know if a .338 would really have any advantage over a .300 in lethality at 500yds, and honestly we're I going with the smaller medium bore, with intention to shoot 400+yds, I'd probably do a .340wby.
Having never used a .338 ill leave that to others.

Cost wise take a look at Speer bullets, they tend to be much cheaper than other options and are usually very accurate. The btsp that I'm using (I also have nosler accubonds) are not particularly tough tho, and would make a good medium range large thin skinned game bullet.

 

[Charlie Martinez]

I went on a grizzly/moose hunt to British Columbia with a buddy in the 80's. He had a 300 Win Mag with heavy 30 cal bullets (at least 180's or heavier) & I had a 7mm Rem Mag. with 175 grain Remington Core Lockt ( Rem Core Lockts have always worked for me).
He downed his moose from about 350 yards with one shot. It went down like a rock. Mine was shot at about the same distance (maybe a bit further) & it took 3 shots before it stopped & laid down. Do I think it had anything to do with caliber? Maybe. But I wouldn't bet on it.
All my shots were good kill shots, right in the lung cavity & that is the honest truth. My moose had no chance after the first shot but he ran. However I believe my buddy (by pure stroke of luck) hit his moose in the spine & down it went.
What does this all mean? Caliber is important but not so much for killing potential but for your ability to handle it well. Once you reach the big game calibers the truth is they all work. A 338 Win Mag. , a 300 Win Mag, a 7mm Rem Mag & a 30-06 or 270 will all do the job with the right bullets but only if you do yours. Shoot what you're the best shot with, aim & hit the right spot & you'll be fine.

 

[ExAgoradzo]

I have shot a 300 WM in a Rem 700. No sweat.
My 338WM is heavy M70. No sweat.
My 375 HH is a Sako. Def handleable.

For what you’re talking about (I own 3 rifles that I can shoot supported 300, one is a M70 in 30-06 which I can reach unsupported the 175 yard 9” gong reliably—the other two are my -270 Win and my AR 15) the 300 WM seems like the best choice. If it were me, I’d get the 7mm RM and be done.

Then I’d buy a nice heavy 375 HH just because. I have hit the 250ish gong supported but have not shot it unsupported past 100 yards often enough to know how well I’d do, but 100 yards is far enough for that gun for me...

Greg

 

[Seamaster31]

I guess some feel recoil differently. Try using the recoil charts for the 300 and the 338 using the same bullet weight. With similar bullet weights they feel pretty much the same to me.

There is a marked difference in recoil between my M70 SE in 375 H&H and my Ruger African in 375 Ruger. The Ruger rifle is lighter, the recoil pad is different, etc. and the result is more felt recoil for everyone that has shot both my rifles. I have never heard anyone (other than on the internet) say that the recoil of a full-house 375 H&H load is soft or fun.

My Ruger is a bit more pleasant to carry all day than the heavier M70. Both have stout recoil when fired from a shooting bench, and both are reasonable when shooting from a sitting or standing position. I sight in at the bench and practice mostly by shooting them off of the sticks. The felt recoil on my 375 Ruger is fairly strong but it does feel pleasant when compared to the 416 and larger rifles.

 

[Varminterror]

I guess some feel recoil differently. Try using the recoil charts for the 300 and the 338 using the same bullet weight. With similar bullet weights they feel pretty much the same to me.

They should - they are the same case, firing the same bullet weight.

But the two shouldn’t be firing the same bullet weight. The two bore diameters exist because they offer access to two different spectra of bullet weights. A 220 grain bullet is reaching the top end of the 300win mag’s practical capacity, really happier around 200-212, where the 338wm is just starting to hit its stride with the 225’s.

As others have stated - the heavy 375Ruger really isn’t friendly for 600yrd shooting, but it’s a hammer wherever you can manage its trajectory. Between the other two, for big bodies, the 338wm makes more sense, and is certainly a better stopper, but the 300 will be better for 600yrds. Flip a coin, either are capable, and neither is a wrong answer. For my mind, if brown bear are on the menu, the 338 is the choice. If elk would be far more common table fare, however, the 300 makes more sense.

You could do what I did - have two barrels cut for the same action. Choosing just one is un-American.

 

[LoonWulf]

Edit: Sorry, Wulf, you quoted me while I was making a few edits, wasn't intentional

All good, I assumed you were talking about hornadys manual, which for the .375R is slower in general than other sources, but I wasn't sure.

 

[js8588]

I didn't want to be "that guy", but if African DG is off the menu...

The new 6.5 PRC will do for any animal in North America up to and including 5-600 yards.

It's 264 Win Mag done right (correct barrel twist and fits in a shorter action).

It will also kick less than your other choices.

 

[MachIVshooter]

In a shorter barrel, the .375 will suffer the least. .300 WM and .338 WM really need 24"-26" barrels for good performance.

The math doesn't lie, right?
Actually, when it comes to "felt" recoil, I think it does.
I have (had) both a 300WM and a 338WM. And while I'm pretty sure your figures of 26 ft lbs for the 300, and 35 ft lbs for the 338 are correct, I don't believe they tell the whole story.
My 300WM (which is nearly identical ballistic-wise to the 308 Norma Mag I now have and love) felt like it kick harder than my 338. I'm just guessing here, but I think that's because a 300WM has a faster recoil than a 338WM, regardless of what the ft lbs of recoil energy are on paper.

Yes, recoil velocity is just as much a factor as free recoil energy. Prior to suppressing my .375 RUM, I had occasion to shoot it side-by-side with a CZ in .416 Rigby. The CZ was a bit heavier, but recoil energy calculations were similar. The .375 RUM recoil, however, is about 30% faster, and that translates more ferocious felt recoil.

They should - they are the same case, firing the same bullet weight.

.300 WM is a longer case than the .30-06 length .338 WM. 2.60 vs. 2.49.

 

[Varminterror]

300 WM is a longer case than the .30-06 length .338 WM. 2.60 vs. 2.49.

Splitting hairs for the sake of it... same case, slightly shorter to fit the longer bullets in the same action length, both run the same bullet weight at about the same velocity with about the same charge weight. Put them in the same rifle weight, the physics is simple.

 

[horsey300]

I haven't run a 375, but I have run a 7stw, .300wm, and .338 wm, my conclusion? I'll never own a .338, sold my .300 and next time I go for a bore bigger than .284 it will start at .375. Neither .300 nor .338 offer enough pros over the 7s to justify them, my stw recoils the same as my .300 did, but gains ballistic ground to justify. If I need anything bigger it'll NEED to be .375 and between the 2 guns, I'd pick the heavier.

 

[Varminterror]

I haven't run a 375, but I have run a 7stw, .300wm, and .338 wm, my conclusion? I'll never own a .338, sold my .300 and next time I go for a bore bigger than .284 it will start at .375. Neither .300 nor .338 offer enough pros over the 7s to justify them, my stw recoils the same as my .300 did, but gains ballistic ground to justify. If I need anything bigger it'll NEED to be .375 and between the 2 guns, I'd pick the heavier.

This tends to be my sentiment - but going for a 416 instead of a 375. My first "DGR" was a 416 Rem, then a Rigby, and a 458wm and lott, then a 375, and the snowball kept rolling, but I simply LOVE 416's. The 338 and 300 have an advantage in this particular scenario where 600yrd shots on elk are on the menu, which is pleasantly served by a 7mm mag of various flavors (although I still tend to favor a 300 over a 7rm, for some reason). If I lived in one of those "5 gun battery" imaginary worlds, I'd have a 22LR semiauto for small game, a 5.56 AR for coyotes, a 6 Creed stick shift for deer, a 300wm for long range elk, and a 416 Rigby for everything else - including short range elk. I'd rather carry the 416 for bear, moose, bison, etc than the 300, so the only thing the 300 is really buying is range.

 

[Bill Raby]

Just be sure to get rid of the muzzle brake. 375 does not recoil enough to need it. Ever notice that the 458 and 50 caliber hunting rifles rarely have them even though they have a lot more recoil? If you think you need a muzzle brake, what you really need is more practice.

 

[MachIVshooter]

both run the same bullet weight at about the same velocity with about the same charge weight. Put them in the same rifle weight, the physics is simple.

No argument there. Just pointing out that they're not the same cartridge case, can't make .300 WM out of .338 WM cases, would have to shorten .300 WM cases to make .338.

 

[edwardware]

The .375 can be loaded with some pretty pointy bullets (like ) SMK 350 gr., that takes the effective range of a .375 pretty far out there even at the modest velocities. . .

I've done this, and Sierra gave me starting data. That said, something like 2/3rds of the bullet is inside the case by the time you reach magazine length.

Might be better with a lighter, faster TTSX, LRX, or similar.