TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Wow, that's what I was wanting to see. Thanks Wiry.
Here's the money quote:
Oh if it just wasn't $1.60 a round......
Here's the money quote:
Oh if it just wasn't $1.60 a round......
.308 for home defense?
- Thread starter The Wiry Irishman
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The Wiry Irishman
Member
Cheaper than dirt has it for just over a dollar a round:
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM702-41903-123.html
EDITED TO ADD: My bad, that's not TAP FPD
Here's the cheapest FPD I can find on a reputable site 1.25/rd:
http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=74481
dmftoy1
Member
I wonder if you can buy that bullet from them . . I suspect not. If you could then you could reload it ALOT cheaper.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
It's the same stuff, they just changed the name and the box a while back.
TAP and TAP FPD are the same thing according to Hornady.
Thanks for the links.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
They list a .308 110gr V-Max bullet in their catalog, part number 23010 I assume that's the same bullet?
$34.88/100 MSRP
Rifleman 173
Member
ANY bullet has the chance of overpenetrating. Even the lowly .17 and .22 caliber bullets can go through a guy and down the highway to hit another person hundreds of yards away. More than likely a .308 will pentrate all the way through a bad guy and strike something beyond him be it a pole, a wall or even another person. Shooting is something in built-up areas where there is a serious risk factor. Would I, if my life depended on it, use a .308 bullet to stop a bad guy in a built-up or urban area? Yep, I'm afraid so. I wouldn't be happy doing it but if I needed to, I would do it. It doesn't matter what caliber of bullet or type of gun you use, ANY gun fired in an urban area can lead to the famous million dollar lawsuit. It's the risks that you take in times of peril.
Mark Whiteman
Member
You tend to do what you have to do with what is at hand at the time.
I decided a centerfire rifle wasn't the best in town when I saw how .308 went thru foot-thick trees. A 12ga shotgun won't do that, at least. Rifles carry many times farther than shotguns. That and a rifle is more difficult to maneuver inside the average dwelling than a handgun. So, I'd rather use my 1911 first, then a 12ga, then one of the rifles, in that order.
But like I said, if a rifle is what is at hand, that is far better than something else which is not.
And you sure as heck shouldn't be thinking about this when its time to press the go button. Good to do it now.
I decided a centerfire rifle wasn't the best in town when I saw how .308 went thru foot-thick trees. A 12ga shotgun won't do that, at least. Rifles carry many times farther than shotguns. That and a rifle is more difficult to maneuver inside the average dwelling than a handgun. So, I'd rather use my 1911 first, then a 12ga, then one of the rifles, in that order.
But like I said, if a rifle is what is at hand, that is far better than something else which is not.
And you sure as heck shouldn't be thinking about this when its time to press the go button. Good to do it now.
Firepower!
member
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- 723
I think hollow point .45 1911 would do the job. If you want to spend money get a new or yet more powerfull handgun rather than 308 rifle. I am saying this because you live if in an apartment complex, and unless there is total anarchy and things go awefully wrong I doubt you will find yourself in a close quarters combat situation. So for simple defense in an urban area a pistol would do.
However, if you are bent on getting .308 then I suggest forget the lighter ammo. Go with the most powerful so the caliber used at its optimal level. And since you live in the urban setting I suggest that you get 308 in one of those M4 style rifle made by companies such as bushmaster so it's compact and light.
However, if you are bent on getting .308 then I suggest forget the lighter ammo. Go with the most powerful so the caliber used at its optimal level. And since you live in the urban setting I suggest that you get 308 in one of those M4 style rifle made by companies such as bushmaster so it's compact and light.
blackhawk2000
member
The Wiry Irishman's post pretty much puts this thread to rest. Here's the link to the gelatin test: http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/conte...ap_14in_barrel/gelatin_110gr_hornady_tap.html
It would appear the the 110gr TAP round is not reccomended by the host site, due to LACK OF PENETRATION.
That is correct. Less than 12" in gelatin.
What have we learned again today class? Properly designed rifle rounds, fragment in the body, thereby penetrating less than most (if not all) pistol and shotgun rounds. We also learned that you should not miss the BG you are trying to shoot, no matter what you are using to shoot him with, or you will shoot through your house. Worried about overpenetration? Hit your target.
Hopefully we also learned that speculating on what "brand x" ammunition will do, even though the poster wants to know how "brand a" performs is not the answer to the OP's question. I can only pray that the "Git yerself a shotgun with 00 buck" crowd, learns to stop parroting what they learned on TV.
It would appear the the 110gr TAP round is not reccomended by the host site, due to LACK OF PENETRATION.
That is correct. Less than 12" in gelatin.
What have we learned again today class? Properly designed rifle rounds, fragment in the body, thereby penetrating less than most (if not all) pistol and shotgun rounds. We also learned that you should not miss the BG you are trying to shoot, no matter what you are using to shoot him with, or you will shoot through your house. Worried about overpenetration? Hit your target.
Hopefully we also learned that speculating on what "brand x" ammunition will do, even though the poster wants to know how "brand a" performs is not the answer to the OP's question. I can only pray that the "Git yerself a shotgun with 00 buck" crowd, learns to stop parroting what they learned on TV.
Irishman-Yeah, I have a couple of FNFAL's, AR15's, ect....but, I would never us one of them for home defense! They stay in the safe unless they are at the range. If you want more fire power than any hangun, get a simple 12ga pump shotgun. FOOD FOR THOUGHT: despite the other mentioned reasons not to go with the FAL, no matter how justified your home invasion shooting may be-the LE dpt is going to have your weapon for a period of time. I don't trust them to take care of my expensive guns. Also, the shotgun is a lot more politically accepted-unfortunately something we must consider. With thin walls, you could load the 12ga with a variety of different loads that will do an excellant job of protection, without undue risk to the neighbors. Hope this helps!!!!!
blackhawk2000
member
:banghead:
Yeah get a SG! Those don't overpenetrate at all. I know this, because I think it's true! Or better yet get a pistol! Everybody knows pistols are superior manstoppers!
Yeah get a SG! Those don't overpenetrate at all. I know this, because I think it's true! Or better yet get a pistol! Everybody knows pistols are superior manstoppers!
kashton
Member
I think you should stick with a 12 guage shotgun
Mark Whiteman
Member
There's always grenades...kill radius measured in feet. You might even be able to get the house put back in order on one of those home remodeling shows on DIY Network...
Titan6
member
I don't use a meat cleaver at the dinner table even though it will take apart a steak like nobodys business.
The Wiry Irishman
Member
Pistol rounds will go through more than a few walls with enough force to kill someone, doesn't matter if they're hollowpoint or not:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
Buckshot of various sizes isn't as bad, but it will still go through 2 or 3 walls:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=329898&page=3
And you've all seen the gel test of 110gr TAP I posted. With a little research it becomes clear, as many people have already said on this thread, that the key to stopping over-penetration is hitting your target.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
Buckshot of various sizes isn't as bad, but it will still go through 2 or 3 walls:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=329898&page=3
And you've all seen the gel test of 110gr TAP I posted. With a little research it becomes clear, as many people have already said on this thread, that the key to stopping over-penetration is hitting your target.
Richard.Howe
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- 887
Good idea. Unless you really want to find out what a lawsuit feels like.
So, just be sure to never miss your target, and you should be good to go. If you do miss, pack up and move to Bermuda real quick-like.
blackhawk2000
member
You're in the same boat with a pistol or SG, if you miss. What's your point?
And why would the lawsuit go anywhere? You have the gelatin test to show that it doesn't even penetrate the reccomended 12". This is repeatable. Seems to me a decent lawyer could easily show that you were thinking of others by using .308 TAP. A good shoot, is a good shoot. Doesn't matter what you use.
And why would the lawsuit go anywhere? You have the gelatin test to show that it doesn't even penetrate the reccomended 12". This is repeatable. Seems to me a decent lawyer could easily show that you were thinking of others by using .308 TAP. A good shoot, is a good shoot. Doesn't matter what you use.
The Wiry Irishman
Member
That missing with anything will lead to bad overpenetration, and that hollowpoints won't reduce overpenetration. I haven't been able to track down any sort of Box O' Truth - like test for 110 TAP or a similarly constructed bullet, but I'd suspect it would slice through quite a few walls before it broke up and stopped.
My main goal wasn't to make a point, however. There's been a lot of speculation on this thread, and I thought it would be a good thing to introduce some facts. Pistol rounds, hollowpoint or not, are terrible over-penetrators unhindered through drywall. Large shot is as well, but smaller buckshot isn't near as bad. Both will stop fairly reliably in gel, which can be extrapolated to stopping fairly well in a human target. A properly constructed rifle bullet has light penetration in gel. From a facts standpoint, the only thing up in the air is the performance of frangible, ballistic-tip rifle ammunition unhindered through drywall.
How these facts are interpreted what bearing they have on a person's choice for home defense weapon will of course vary. My purpose in starting this thread was not to advocate a particular weapon or ammunition or change anyone's mind, it was to bring the facts to light.
blackhawk2000
member
Sorry, I was responding to Richard Howe's comment about missing. I'm on your side.
The rifle for HD threads are always loaded with speculation. It also appears very few people actually read the replys, and keep saying the same things over and over, ignoring the data links that are posted.
The rifle for HD threads are always loaded with speculation. It also appears very few people actually read the replys, and keep saying the same things over and over, ignoring the data links that are posted.
Richard.Howe
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- 887
Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, friend. My point is, shooting through a piece of drywall with a 9mm, a .223, and a .308 puts one in very different boats...not the same one.
Yes, they will all over penetrate, but when they hit another target, their residual energies might be a little...uh...dissimilar. That matters to me with kids in the house and neighbors next door.
But you're right, these conversations go off into the land of speculation pretty quickly. To ground my concerns, have a look below:
12ga 00 Buck 2-3/4" Hornady Light Mag: 1633 ft-lbs, 9 pellets = 181 ft-lbs energy, per pellet
9mm 124gr @ 1150fps = 363 ft-lbs energy
45acp Double Tap 230gr @ 1010fps = 520 ft-lbs energy
.223 50gr @ 3300fps = 1210 ft-lbs energy
.308 110gr @ 3165fps Hornady TAP = 2450 ft-lbs
Now, we know from B-O-T that none of these bullets are likely to "explode" upon impact with gypsum board. Energy isn't a complete predictor of terminal effect on soft tissue, but it isn't irrelevant, either.
That being the case, we all just need to do a little risk analysis between the effects on a BG, and the effects of a stray bullet that missed the BG. It would be silly to use 22lf Super Colibri (11 ft-lbs energy) for fear of over-penetrating walls, and it would be equally silly to use a .308. We all just have to figure out where our personal "sweet spot" is, and live with it (and its consequences).
Me? With a single-story home, I use a 45acp 230gr factory load at 830fps. My last house was brick veneer, had the kids upstairs, and my bedside gun was a .223 Colt AR. I'd likely pick something else if I lived in the country.
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The Wiry Irishman
Member
I'm still trying to track down a test, but I tend to agree with you. If you look at the gel test of the 110gr TAP I posted, you'll notice that fragmentation doesn't start until about an inch into the gel block, implying that the bullet requires about an inch of travel through continuous resistance to start to break up. When the bullet strikes something thin and brittle like drywall, the drywall will crack and stop providing significant resistance almost instantly, so the bullet would exit largely intact. With repeated short contacts like this, a ballistic tip bullet would eventually start to break up, but how many walls would it take? More than a pistol bullet?
I dont' know, but I'd like to find out. What was idle curiosity when I started the thread has almost turned into an obsession. If I can't find a test online before my rifle comes in, I'm planning on buyine some 110gr TAP and some drywall and finding out for myself. If it comes to that, I'll come back and post some pictures when I do.
You're also right on this point. I think we can all agree that in the event of a miss, either a .45 or .308 will penetrate into the next apartment (in my case) with enough force to kill whomever may be on the other side. Given that, the key factor becomes what you are least likely to miss with. For most people, that's a long gun. For me, I'd go for my pistol first. In the last five years, I've put maybe 1000 rounds through rifles of various kinds. My round count for pistols is probably 30,000 at the very least. Also, I'm very familiar with my pistol, and my rifle, when it comes in, will be almost alien to me because 1) it's new and 2) my shooting has been so pistol-centric.
But as you said, its a risk anaylsis between what happens when you miss and when you hit. If indeed evidence proves a ballistic tip .308 will penetrate significantly more walls than another HD option, then then, for some people at least, the risks of a miss start to outweigh the benefit of the added effectiveness of a hit.
Really, though, all discussion about this is hypothetical until someone can prove this ammo penetrates more, less, or about the same as other options.
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HK G3
Member
If only some rich guy were willing to donate a house for people to, in the interest of science, fire various rounds into the walls to observe the penetrance and kinetic energy of those rounds...
Couldn't someone just buy chunks of drywall, and just set them up at a range, with ballistics gel behind them, and start firing various rounds into them? The only way to truly know any answers to this is to actually fire through the materials in question. There have been a lot of really surprising results when you actually do the test. Prior to that ballistics gel picture, most people were convinced that the Hornady TAP round would over penetrate, but the actual test chastised the round for being underpowered!
This is clearly a very important area of RKBA. Everyone would benefit from having conclusive and unbiased data on what each round is capable of, and could therefore choose the best HD option given their living situation. Who knows, maybe shotguns would go out of style?
Couldn't someone just buy chunks of drywall, and just set them up at a range, with ballistics gel behind them, and start firing various rounds into them? The only way to truly know any answers to this is to actually fire through the materials in question. There have been a lot of really surprising results when you actually do the test. Prior to that ballistics gel picture, most people were convinced that the Hornady TAP round would over penetrate, but the actual test chastised the round for being underpowered!
This is clearly a very important area of RKBA. Everyone would benefit from having conclusive and unbiased data on what each round is capable of, and could therefore choose the best HD option given their living situation. Who knows, maybe shotguns would go out of style?
The Wiry Irishman
Member
See the links to boxotruth.com that I posted earlier. That's exactly what he does. There's plenty of other sites where you can find something similar. Drywall tests are almost as ubiquitous as gel tests. Problem is, no one has found a drywall test of the ammo in question.
My apologies if your remark was intended to be sarcastic. Its hard to tell in print.
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