mljdeckard
Member
There is no such thing as a round that makes it so you don't have to worry about overpenetration. You still have to assume ALL rounds will go through whatever is behind the target.
.308 Home Defense
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cal30_sniper
Member
There is such a thing as some rounds penetrating much further than others though. Penetration is a very real home defense consideration for most. It's a slightly moot point for the OP, because he lives out in the country, and knows the layout of his own house in an emergency situation. Not so for anyone that lives in town. You don't want your .308, 7.62x39, or .223 going through 3 walls and shooting somebody in the house next door or across the street. That's what makes 12 gauge and pistol caliber carbines such an excellent choice for home defense. They have lots of knockdown power, but are not very good at going through walls.
allaroundhunter
Member
Just a quick (but important) piece of info. Those 3 rifle calibers that you mention will ALL over penetrate less than JHP pistol rounds and 00 buckshot (and some #4 buckshot) when one uses a round designed for defensive use.
Ergo, that whole statement that I quoted is very false.
As a side-note: This is my 2,400th post....and probably the 2,399th time I have corrected someone saying that pistol and shotgun rounds penetrate less than rifle rounds....
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mljdeckard
Member
^^EXACTLY. AGAIN, there is no such thing as a round that will effectively stop an attacker that won't also possibly overpenetrate walls. You have to be careful with your shots no matter what round you are using. And even if such a magical round existed, you might miss your target. No round negates rule #4.
cal30_sniper
Member
Frangible rounds are available for rifle OR pistol for home defense use. Whether a JHP pistol round would penetrate more than a frangible rifle round would be an interesting test. That being said, a 5.56, 7.62x39, or .308 is going to penetrate much further than a 9mm, .40, .45, or 12 gauge with comparable bullet choice (i.e., FMJ to FMJ, SP/HP rifle to JHP pistol, Frangible rifle to Frangible pistol. Bullet design will have some effect, but you're not going to negate the fact that you have a smaller diameter, sharper bullet traveling at 2 to 3 times the velocity when you're using a rifle caliber.
Another fact to consider, since he is out in the country, is if that bullet leaves his house into open air, the rifle calibers have the added danger of traveling much further (and still being very lethal when it gets there). Pistol or shotgun rounds start out slower, and slow down much faster than a rifle round.
You have to be careful shooting anything, but the lethal range of a stray rifle round is much greater than that of a stray pistol or shotgun round.
Another fact to consider, since he is out in the country, is if that bullet leaves his house into open air, the rifle calibers have the added danger of traveling much further (and still being very lethal when it gets there). Pistol or shotgun rounds start out slower, and slow down much faster than a rifle round.
You have to be careful shooting anything, but the lethal range of a stray rifle round is much greater than that of a stray pistol or shotgun round.
mljdeckard
Member
I will not rely on ANY frangible round to effectively stop an attacker.
barnett
Member
If you want a rifle for home defense, get a .357mag lever carbine.
mljdeckard
Member
(My M-1 Carbine is my wife's primary and my backup.)
cal30_sniper
Member
Here is an interesting test that was done that shows the overpenetration of pistol versus rifle caliber bullets that mljdeckard and allaroundhunter were talking about. Keep in mind however, that this pits varmint style Frangible rifle ammo against JHP and FMJ pistol ammunition. Hopefully nobody in their right mind is going to be using FMJ ammunition for home defense, rifle or pistol caliber. Also note that this test does not take into account encounters with wood, brick, stone, or other thicker building materials.
http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/ammunition.html
Also keep in mind that the OP was asking about reduced recoil, 170grn, soft-point, .308 Winchester loads. If you have kids, dogs, or neighbors anywhere within a mile radius that you don't want getting shot accidentally, I would not suggest using that as a home defense weapon. That's why I suggested a Mini 14. Loaded with light, thin jacketed bullets, it shouldn't be too bad on overpenetration.
As far as using frangible rounds on an attacker, you're trying to immobilize an intruder, not drop a grizzly bear. A .223, .40 S&W, 10mm, .357 Magnum, or similar round with thin jacketed bullets is going to deliver a world of hurt on anyone at close range without traveling three football fields and going through two walls to kill a neighbor. You can't ever remove the danger to things that may be behind your target, but you can drastically reduce that area and the chance you have of lethally hitting something back there. Freak occurrences, ricochets, and accidents are always a possibility, but you've got to consider reasonable reductions to those possibilities. A .308, as well as 7.62x39 and most .223 ammunition, is not such a reasonable choice.
http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/ammunition.html
Also keep in mind that the OP was asking about reduced recoil, 170grn, soft-point, .308 Winchester loads. If you have kids, dogs, or neighbors anywhere within a mile radius that you don't want getting shot accidentally, I would not suggest using that as a home defense weapon. That's why I suggested a Mini 14. Loaded with light, thin jacketed bullets, it shouldn't be too bad on overpenetration.
As far as using frangible rounds on an attacker, you're trying to immobilize an intruder, not drop a grizzly bear. A .223, .40 S&W, 10mm, .357 Magnum, or similar round with thin jacketed bullets is going to deliver a world of hurt on anyone at close range without traveling three football fields and going through two walls to kill a neighbor. You can't ever remove the danger to things that may be behind your target, but you can drastically reduce that area and the chance you have of lethally hitting something back there. Freak occurrences, ricochets, and accidents are always a possibility, but you've got to consider reasonable reductions to those possibilities. A .308, as well as 7.62x39 and most .223 ammunition, is not such a reasonable choice.
oldpapps
Member
"LouisianaGunner12
.308 Home Defense
Federal makes some reduced recoil .308 loads that sends a 170 grain bullet going 2,000 FPS.
....Could it be practical for home defense?
....an M1A with an 18" barrel that I am very comfortable with.
....live out in the country."
Quick answer - Yes the .308 can be used for 'home defense'.
My thoughts and opinions.
I have looked back at your other entries. I see nothing listed concerning the subject of 'Reloading'. So many possibilities may be addressed with the tailoring of loads for special uses. Think about it.
Any weapon can be used for defense, sticks and rocks work too. It is a matter of finding the best tool for the job.
Up front, as you "live out in the country", do a test. Open a window, including the screen, put on hearing protection and pop one shot from your .45 out the window. I would suggest that you let everyone know what you are doing first and if the boss says it's OK, then continue. Now think about what you may expect if you were firing a .308/7.62 out that same window.
With the above in mind, I feel at a M1A is an excellent weapon. The few draw backs are:
Weapon weight - matters not, you are at home.
Slower recovery between shots - big whoop, it does so much more.
Cost of ammunition - only counts for practice stuff (think about reloading), for business work, doesn't matter.
Just touching on the pluses:
Energy, penetration, enjoyment...
Carry/use your .45 in the house and out. Carry/use your M1A outside and you are well protected. Remember, the greatest rifle setting in a case, is not protecting anything.
.308 Home Defense
Federal makes some reduced recoil .308 loads that sends a 170 grain bullet going 2,000 FPS.
....Could it be practical for home defense?
....an M1A with an 18" barrel that I am very comfortable with.
....live out in the country."
Quick answer - Yes the .308 can be used for 'home defense'.
My thoughts and opinions.
I have looked back at your other entries. I see nothing listed concerning the subject of 'Reloading'. So many possibilities may be addressed with the tailoring of loads for special uses. Think about it.
Any weapon can be used for defense, sticks and rocks work too. It is a matter of finding the best tool for the job.
Up front, as you "live out in the country", do a test. Open a window, including the screen, put on hearing protection and pop one shot from your .45 out the window. I would suggest that you let everyone know what you are doing first and if the boss says it's OK, then continue. Now think about what you may expect if you were firing a .308/7.62 out that same window.
With the above in mind, I feel at a M1A is an excellent weapon. The few draw backs are:
Weapon weight - matters not, you are at home.
Slower recovery between shots - big whoop, it does so much more.
Cost of ammunition - only counts for practice stuff (think about reloading), for business work, doesn't matter.
Just touching on the pluses:
Energy, penetration, enjoyment...
Carry/use your .45 in the house and out. Carry/use your M1A outside and you are well protected. Remember, the greatest rifle setting in a case, is not protecting anything.
GBExpat
Member
What does that test?Any individual shot with a .223 Rem. frag round is going to know that they just got shot and are going to need immediate medical care unless they are suicidal... Sorry.
Personally I have seen .223 Rem. frag rounds go through one layer of sheet rock... fragment into smaller bits of metal and get stuck in 2nd layers and even smaller tiny fragments go into a 3rd layer, that is after a stud did not get in the fragments way.
7.62X39= bullet in your neighbors bedroom for sure... Why take the risk? (Thread only for those that have to worry about such things.)
AlfieB
Member
Your solution is frangible bullets in standard loadings. Most M1A's don't like anything but2,600 -2,800 fps loadings.
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