.308 For Home Defense?

[TexasPatriot.308]

then there's always a grenade launcher thru the .308....kinda like the atomic hand grenade.....destroys everthing within a square mile, but you can only throw it about 10 feet.

 

[Kachok]

then there's always a grenade launcher thru the .308....kinda like the atomic hand grenade.....destroys everthing within a square mile, but you can only throw it about 10 feet.

That is the MAD (mutually assured destruction) of the home defense world

 

[DeMilled]

I would have no problem using my FN FAL (carbine length, not my Izzy HB) for home defense.

My house layout works for me and there are no kids bedrooms between my bedroom and the living room/kitchen/dining room/garage. I have no worries that I'm going to shoot through five interior walls and into a neighbors house.

I have it good like that and feel no need to down grade to a smaller rifle caliber.

Over penetration has been addressed by commercial ammo. manufacturers for some time now. 7.62 NATA/308 Win. is a perfectly viable option for home defense.


http://www.ssarmory.com/7.62x51_ammunition_150gr_barnes_rrlp_fb_frangible.aspx

Electronic ear muffs would be a good idea for hearing protection, but don't worry that you're going to light the walls on fire with the muzzle flash.

 

[TexasPatriot.308]

have you a good lawyer on speed dial.

 

[DeMilled]

Well, it's sounding like it might not be the best idea, even with a suppressor and "light" penetrating rounds. I would like to have more than the 5-8 rounds of a shotgun though, but with better terminal performance than just a .45 pistol or something similar.

Have you looked at the SAIGA 12?

I have a couple and my wife and I love them.

? rounds of #1 buck in a semi auto shot gun, that you reload as fast as you can change magazines, is a pretty nifty tool to have at your disposal.

You do need to restore them to original-ish specs before they really shine.

The balance, handiness and ease of swinging it about just plain work soo well that I have to rate it tops on my list of home defense guns to shop for.

10 round, 5 round, 12 round stick mags are available.
20 round and 12 round drums are also available.

12 round drums are on my to buy list as the perfect compact package O fire power.

Google SAIGA 12 and you'll see what I'm saying.


P.S. Don't forget that you can keep a magazine of slugs on hand and stretch the SAIGA-12's range to 100M, or turn cover into concealment. Versatility is a good thing.

P.P.S. You can put a bayonet on your semi-auto shot gun. Just saying...

 

[DeMilled]

have you a good lawyer on speed dial.

Very helpful to the discussion.

Pertinent, educated, applicable and totally above board.

 

[rcmodel]

There must be a VERY good reason every SWAT Entry team in the country carries .223 M4 carbines and 12ga shotguns.

If something else worked better & safer to stop a threat, that is what they all would carry.

But they don't.

rc

 

[DeMilled]

There must be a VERY good reason every SWAT Entry team in the country carries .223 M4 carbines and 12ga shotguns.

If something else worked better & safer to stop a threat, that is what they all would carry.

But they don't.

rc

Budget considerations?

SWAT gets a lot of military gear from the government for pennies on the dollar. M4s are cool, I carried one, and I wouldn't turn down a free one.

I know what 5.56 does to a human.

I know what 7.62 does to a human.

When I want to stop a threat I am not going to reach for the smallest caliber that can do that job.

I don't mind swatting flies with a sledge hammer.

People look just a nasty with cute little 5.56 holes in them as they do with bigger 7.62 holes in them.

People are stopped faster by the 7.62 and that's what I'm trying to do.
Stop the threat. That's all.

I agree that 12 gauge is a great home defense tool.
Pump 12 gauges work well and should not be discarded.

 

[DeMilled]

And the best reason to use 30 cal., it's what Clint would use...

 

[Guillermo]

RC nailed it (again)

BTW
I have a handgun by my bedside for the "gee, what is that noise" that is probably nothing

a 870 w extended mag for "someone is in the house!!"

and a Rock River AR for when the car alarm goes off or some outside noise

 

[PabloJ]

I was looking at some low-penetrating .308 hollow point and ballistic tip loads from Hornady and Corbon.

In a handy rifle like a socom16 or something, would this be practical for self defense? You get many more rounds than a shotgun in a similar sized weapon with reasonable penetration. (Only obvious problem is noise and flash, which, if I can get the wife to agree, could be remedied with a short suppressor)

Great HD round if you reside in STONE-Walled villa.

 

[JShirley]

The people screaming about overpenetration while you're using a varmint round designed to fragment in just a couple of inches of tissue have no idea what they're talking about. Such a round would be less likely to overpenetrate a home invader than any other round capable of a decisive stop, and clearly, using varmint ammo against a bear would be idiotic.

The ones who mention blast, noise, and weight have valid points.

John

 

[Warp]

Blast, noise, weight, and cost of practice ammo.

I have an M1 and an AR. I just got both this year. They are my only semi auto magazine fed centerfire rifles. The .30-06 of the M1 can be considered ballistically identical to the .308 for this discussion, I think. I could have added the relevant accessories (red dot site mostly, but also a flashlight) to either, making it my go-to rifle and primary HD tool.

The AR is what now sits ready and waiting in the bedroom. It's lighter, recoils less, holds more rounds, is less expensive to practice with, and ought to stop an attacker/intruder very well. I'll save the big bore .30 stuff for outdoors where longer ranges and barriers are more likely. And where the blast/concussion has somewhere to escape to.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Well, it's sounding like it might not be the best idea, even with a suppressor and "light" penetrating rounds. I would like to have more than the 5-8 rounds of a shotgun though, but with better terminal performance than just a .45 pistol or something similar.

5.56 is what you are looking for.

I know what 5.56 does to a human.

I know what 7.62 does to a human.

Please expand on what you know, I'm eager to hear.

 

[mljdeckard]

I don't believe in overpenetration. I believe in penetration, and you want all you can get.

There is no magical round that will effectively stop the bad guy and never go through him with enough energy to injure whatever is behind. Mag-safe, varmint grenades, whatever, you're not going to stand grandma behind the bad guy, shoot him, and say; "It's ok. The manufacturer said it wouldn't hurt her." And even if this magical round DID exist, you don't know that all of your shots are going to hit. You STILL have to plan on bad things happening behind the target. They don't negate Rule Number Four.

Plan the layout of your house, do the best you can to make your likely lanes of fire aren't where people are likely to be at the times you will be defending your house. Use overwhelming force, no reduced power anything. End the fight as quickly as possible, reduce the chances you will have to have a PROLONGED fight. THIS is the best way to reduce the chances of lead flying places you don't want it.

 

[Warp]

I don't believe in overpenetration. I believe in penetration, and you want all you can get.

There is no magical round that will effectively stop the bad guy and never go through him with enough energy to injure whatever is behind. Mag-safe, varmint grenades, whatever, you're not going to stand grandma behind the bad guy, shoot him, and say; "It's ok. The manufacturer said it wouldn't hurt her." And even if this magical round DID exist, you don't know that all of your shots are going to hit. You STILL have to plan on bad things happening behind the target. They don't negate Rule Number Four.

Plan the layout of your house, do the best you can to make your likely lanes of fire aren't where people are likely to be at the times you will be defending your house. Use overwhelming force, no reduced power anything. End the fight as quickly as possible, reduce the chances you will have to have a PROLONGED fight. THIS is the best way to reduce the chances of lead flying places you don't want it.

Penetration, both in tissue and through objects, is something that should be taken into consideration when making a platform/caliber/round decision, though. It would not be prudent or wise to use a .308 or .30-06 loaded with black tip AP ammunition living in a big city apartment. If, however, you were staying in a sweet cabin in the middle of nowhere in Wyoming, well, now things are quite a bit different.

The penetration of your chosen round through your residence's walls as well as whatever else is around you is something that you should consider when picking a weapon for home defense. Failing to do so is, IMO, negligent.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

There is no magical round that will effectively stop the bad guy and never go through him with enough energy to injure whatever is behind. Mag-safe, varmint grenades, whatever, you're not going to stand grandma behind the bad guy, shoot him, and say; "It's ok. The manufacturer said it wouldn't hurt her." And even if this magical round DID exist, you don't know that all of your shots are going to hit. You STILL have to plan on bad things happening behind the target. They don't negate Rule Number Four.

I understand what you are saying but there is a difference between thinking that the round won't over-penetrate and getting something that penetrates less to make things safer for the innocent neighbors.

 

[mljdeckard]

But even if you reduce the likelihood, you can never ELIMINATE it. You still have to make all of your plans assuming that it WILL. If I am assuming the risk, I want the benefit too.

However, I should probably make clear that I don't see myself using a .308 as a home defense weapon. I recommend trained persons use an AR with appropriate ammo (like Hornadt TAP), but really for effectiveness, not for reduced penetration. Right now my primary is a shotgun with #4 buck, my backup (and my wife's primary) is an M-1 carbine with 110 gr sp ammo.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

But even if you reduce the likelihood, you can never ELIMINATE it.

Wearing a seatbelt may not save your life in a head on collision but it's nice to wear it in the chance that it may save your life.

Plus with my AK, I wouldn't want to use anything other than Hornady V-Max or military surplus for defense and I will be getting back a very rusted gun from the Police if I used surplus.

I just prefer to plan for the worse considering I'm in a residential neighborhood.

 

[-v-]

Couple of points:

Penetration is Penetration: Anything that will punch into a assailant far enough to stop him, will punch through multiple sheets of drywall, studs, etc. We've yet to figure out how to escape from the laws of physics in regard to ballistics. Birdshot wont go through much drywall and interior structure, birdshot also wont go far enough into a BG to incapacitate him, and anything that will, will also go through most interior walls with ease

If thats all you have...: If all he has is a .308 and no spare assets to buy anything better, then its pointless to say "you need X, Y, or Z" - might as well just suggest he hire a few body guards to stand watch around the house all the time, for all its practical.

As for the original question: Well, any rifle round will do the job. The thin-skinned light .308 rounds (eg Hornady's 110gr TAP) would probably be the best bet for minimizing over-penetration. Generally, anything light and fast will be close to the results you are wanting.

 

[unwise11]

In a realistic indoors home defense situation, practically I'd take my Glock 22 loaded with 15 rounds of 40 S&W, and if there is not a budged involved, give me an AR chambered in .300 BLK with subsonic rounds.. SBR upper too..

 

[Art Eatman]

Back in my jackrabbit hunting daze, I loaded 80-grain pistol bullets ahead of 55 grains of 3031 in my '06. Right at 4,000 ft/sec. That load regularly strewed rabbit pieces across the pasture.

Probably not a lot of excessive penetration--but what happens in a Bad Guy stays in a Bad Guy. I guess you could call it a Las Vegas load. A wee bit noisy indoors, though.

 

[Patocazador]

get a 20ga. shotgun.

And use # 6 shot. It will kill when used short range (inside a house) and not penetrate walls to hit something or someone else.

 

[BP Hunter]

OK, I guess I won't be needing extra mags for my newly purchased DSA STG58 FAL...

But seriously, if you can handle a SOCOM then you can handle a pump shotgun. If you can afford a SOCOM, then you can most definitely afford to buy a pump shotgun.

 

[Warp]

And use # 6 shot. It will kill when used short range (inside a house) and not penetrate walls to hit something or someone else.

1. It isn't about killing and killing is not the goal.
2. #6 shot does not penetrate far enough to reliably stop an attacker