30S fail to feed, lets talk "limp wristing"

[RussellC]

Ok, at first I thought this problem I am having with my 30S was with the ammo I reloaded or the mags that came with the gun but have come to the conclusion (one more range trip should settle those questions) that it is quite possibly something else.

My searching around here and other forums keeps suggesting limp wristing. I dont think this is the problem but one poster noted that many claim they dont but do. Well, those that dont likely also claim that as well! Not wanting to miss a possible reason for this. The problem is an occasional fail to feed type jam, maybe 2 times in 200 rounds. The bullet is pointed up, like it is trying to get in the chamber but is jammed against the mouth.

With my Glock 17, I tried in vain to induce limp wristing and could not. However, my reading suggests the 30S and perhaps 30 and 30SF as well, are more prone to limp wristing than others. I shoot with an Isosceles stance, with a pretty firm grip.

What causes limp wristing and how do you make certain this isnt the problem?
Perhaps this is the problem, what say everyone? An awful lot of people have suggested it, I just want to eliminate it as a possibility before I send it in to Glock. Also, an awful lot of people have stated they own this gun and it has never missed a beat. What says everyone?



Russellc

 

[TarDevil]

Russellc, what you are describing is what my son-in-law experiences with his Glock 22. He suffered the same malady... but it was one or two rounds per mag. I shot the gun without issues, but he couldn't get a full mag off.

I watched his grip and the gun as he shot and didn't see anything real bad, but we did work on his technique with little success.

So... I don't think it's just the 30 series. I think this issue raises it's head sporadically with Glocks. Apparently there are some more intolerant than others.

 

[wally]

The problem is an occasional fail to feed type jam, maybe 2 times in 200 rounds. The bullet is pointed up, like it is trying to get in the chamber but is jammed against the mouth.

This is not limp-wristing. Limp-wristing is an ejection failure caused by the slide moving along with the empty and catching the empty as the slide moves forward leading to a "stovepipe" type jam. If it doesn't jam, you'll often find mangled case mouths and/or empties thrown forward.


What you are describing is generally called a "bolt over base" failure where the magazine doesn't get the next round into position in time and the slide catches the extraction grove leading to a nose up jam as you describe. This is as far as I can tell always a magazine or magazine spring issue, although an "extra power" recoil spring can also cause it if you go overboard by making the slide outrun the magazine spring. Check for FOD inside the magazine that prevents the round stack from moving quickly and smoothly, feed lips splayed too far open, burrs or flash on the follower, or weak magazine springs.

In extreme cases you'll find loaded rounds ejected during recoil and the gun may otherwise seem to function normally except for the fewer than expected number of shots as the rounds are held so loosely the top round can jump out during recoil and the one underneath feeds more or less normally.

If its flash on the follower or roughness in the magazine body the issue often goes away after things have worn smooth with some use.


A poor grip can exacerbate the problem by letting the gun jump so much that the rounds inertial lets the gun and magazine leave it behind or the entire stack move down so that the top round "floats" free and comes out nose up.

 

[TarDevil]

The bullet is pointed up, like it is trying to get in the chamber but is jammed against the mouth.

My mistake for not reading your post carefully.

Wally is correct. My brother-in-law's gun wasn't going fully into battery.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I think Wally hit it spot on - "Limp Wristing" a Glock results in a specific type of malfunction outlined in Wally's post. My Wife can do it at will....it results in a stovepipe jam.

VooDoo

 

[tarosean]

What causes limp wristing and how do you make certain this isnt the problem?
Perhaps this is the problem, what say everyone? An awful lot of people have suggested it

To me, its nothing but a catch all excuse for a gun that doesnt work. If you have a few years under your belt, you will realize this is a rather new phenomenon.

I dont care if your girlfriends brothers boyfriends uncle can induce it everytime they pick it up yet it works flawlessly for the operator. That is a malfunctioning gun, period.

 

[RussellC]

To me, its nothing but a catch all excuse for a gun that doesnt work. If you have a few years under your belt, you will realize this is a rather new phenomenon.

I dont care if your girlfriends brothers boyfriends uncle can induce it everytime they pick it up yet it works flawlessly for the operator. That is a malfunctioning gun, period.

You're right. Anytime someone mentions a malady similar to this its the first response ponied up. Inasmuch as this is a carry gun, this is intolerable. I've shot guns all my life and like I said, I was unable to get my 17 to "limp wrist" and it would not have been safe to have held it any looser. I simply could not induce it. In my reading, I kept coming across that these compact .45 pistols were more prone to this.

I loaded up a couple of hundred this after noon, and I will buy 100 or so factory ammo and figure out if it is the mags. I havent had it occur with the 9 round or the 13 round YET, just the 2 10 round mags it came with. In all fairness, I have also used them more often!
I think I have put the limp wrist idea to bed and the reloaded ammo. If I sus out the mags with no luck, I guess its back to Glock. Just cant have this with my carry gun, even if only a couple of times in 200 rounds!

Russellc

 

[RussellC]

This is not limp-wristing. Limp-wristing is an ejection failure caused by the slide moving along with the empty and catching the empty as the slide moves forward leading to a "stovepipe" type jam. If it doesn't jam, you'll often find mangled case mouths and/or empties thrown forward.


What you are describing is generally called a "bolt over base" failure where the magazine doesn't get the next round into position in time and the slide catches the extraction grove leading to a nose up jam as you describe. This is as far as I can tell always a magazine or magazine spring issue, although an "extra power" recoil spring can also cause it if you go overboard by making the slide outrun the magazine spring. Check for FOD inside the magazine that prevents the round stack from moving quickly and smoothly, feed lips splayed too far open, burrs or flash on the follower, or weak magazine springs.

In extreme cases you'll find loaded rounds ejected during recoil and the gun may otherwise seem to function normally except for the fewer than expected number of shots as the rounds are held so loosely the top round can jump out during recoil and the one underneath feeds more or less normally.

If its flash on the follower or roughness in the magazine body the issue often goes away after things have worn smooth with some use.


A poor grip can exacerbate the problem by letting the gun jump so much that the rounds inertial lets the gun and magazine leave it behind or the entire stack move down so that the top round "floats" free and comes out nose up.

Wally, school me, what is "FOD in the magazine" mean?

thanks,

Russellc

 

[moxie]

FOD is an acronym for Foreign Object Damage, used by military maintainers and aircraft types, usually in the context of crud picked up by jet engines.

But FOD has become just another term for the crud itself. So a pebble on the ramp is a piece of FOD.

In other words a piece of crud or gunk in your mags as I suggested in one of your other threads on this subject.

 

[george burns]

What are you shooting out of it? and what kind of Grip are you using? Hollow points , or FMJ's how many grains etc.

 

[M1key]

Is yours a Gen3 or 4?

I own the G30 and G36 Gen3. Heavier springs in both. Swap the slides and both will function great with 230 ball, 200 +P, 230 HP. Never had a problem, but I shoot mostly 200 +P XTP handloads and factory 200 +P Gold Dot.

In my ne'er to be humble opinion, if it's a Gen 4 with that RSA it's likely too stout for the lighter slide. Not sure why Glock went this route. Most report that the 30S functions fine, but I don't see the purpose myself. Perhaps the slide doesn't have enough mass to overcome the stiff spring and short strokes.

You don't mention what ammo you are using, but I would try something else. Hotter 230 FMJ or HP or 200+P or such. If it still malfunctions, give Glock a call. Sometimes replacing the RSA fixes it.

Good luck

M

 

[RussellC]

What are you shooting out of it? and what kind of Grip are you using? Hollow points , or FMJ's how many grains etc.

George, I have another thread in the handloading forum I started when I was under the impression I was making some mistake in the reloading process. I have had the most problems with 230 grain RN! However, that is what I load the most so that is probably not fair. I had it happen only once using 185 grain flat points, so far none of the X-treme hollow points. 230 grain RN including X-treme plated, as well as FMJ win. 230 gr. RN also.

Powders have been Bullseye, 5.1 grains at 1.26-1.275 (yes I know this is max length, but the first time this happened a shorter round) Acc #2 also around 5.1 grains, Unique around 6.1 grains. I also tried Bullseye at 4.7 when many thought 5.0 was hot enough, (Alliant show to 5.7 max in same application. Basically, these are higher mid level loads, no barn burners but not kitty poots either. Seems like more powerful loads are not as problematic, but not shot as often as some of the lighter ones, so may not be statistically relevant.

I am loading a pile up of 2 or three power levels and am going to buy the ammo I carry in it (Hornady Critical Duty, until I find HST) and shoot 100-150 of those to see if they produce the problem

I suppose it is cheap enough to replace the recoil spring, just in case. Others have suggested replacing the extractor as well...it too is cheap as well. Otherwise, I will be calling Glock to send in.

I dont know if I mentioned it, but this only seems to happen a time or maybr two during 175-200 rounds, not every mag or anything like that. I carry this gun and dont need any funny business!

Oh, the grip is the standard issue Glock 10 round, I shoot two hands, Isosceles stance. While I dont use them as often as the 10 rounders, I have a 13 round G21 and 9 round (carry purposes) which have never done this, but I havent put nearly as many rounds through them either. I will fix that on range trip tomorrow, weather allowing.

Russellc

 

[george burns]

It seems you are on top of what you are doing. I also carry mine for self defense and it is also my nightstand gun with the 13 round g21 mag in it as well.
I don't reload, so I am guessing that it has something to do with that. But I carried the 30 before the S, for almost 20 years, and it seems to me that because the new gun has been somewhat shrunk down, it may be more ammo sensitive than the standard 30 was.
I have only used 230 grain "range ammo", "various types", federal, etc, and had no problem with that or the HP loads from Federal or Hornaday.
I tend to keep the red tip 185 gr Hornaday, Critical defense or Hydra shocks, with no problems. It is probably ammo related, as I normally would question the mag, but Glock mags have never failed me, "even one that was loaded since I got the first 30, with Hydra shocks, fired perfectly.
You can try a new Extractor, but it's probably the ammo, or you just relaxed the grip a bit too much after shooting a lot, after 200 rounds of 45 it is very possible.
Many will say the Hydra shock is less than perfect, but I have never had a failure with one. And for me that is paramount.

 

[HankB]

To me, its nothing but a catch all excuse for a gun that doesn't work. If you have a few years under your belt, you will realize this is a rather new phenomenon.

I don't care if your girlfriends brothers boyfriends uncle can induce it everytime they pick it up yet it works flawlessly for the operator. That is a malfunctioning gun, period.

AGREED.

My Gen 1 G17 works fine in my hands, but when I let one of the ladies in my life shoot it, it malfunctions.

I've tried unsuccessfully to induce a "limp wrist" jam in Gen 3 G26 and G19 pistols by holding them with an unlocked wrist and a loose, "two finger" grip, and whether held upright, upside down, or sideways, they work fine.

Likewise with my BHP and 1911s.

And it's silly to say "Well, just hold it firmly and you'll be OK." Well . . . that's OK on the target range, but what if you really need the gun for defense and you're already injured? Bad situation, made worse with a gun that has become unreliable because maybe you can no longer hold it properly.

 

[Proud Southern Son]

Exactly. I shot and carried Glocks for several years. When I developed an arthritis issue in my left arm, I started having multiple malfunctions when shooting left-handed. I've since given up my Glocks and gone back to the Beretta 92 platform, and I can't induce a malfunction.
I refuse to carry a gun that depends on perfect grip, stance, ammunition, weather, etc. in order to be reliable.

 

[RussellC]

Exactly. I shot and carried Glocks for several years. When I developed an arthritis issue in my left arm, I started having multiple malfunctions when shooting left-handed. I've since given up my Glocks and gone back to the Beretta 92 platform, and I can't induce a malfunction.
I refuse to carry a gun that depends on perfect grip, stance, ammunition, weather, etc. in order to be reliable.

Your 92 is a 9mm. I am talking about a .45. I couldnt get my Glock 17 9mm to "limp wrist" no matter how hard I tried to induce it. If you have any Glock .45 FTF or 30s limp wrist info, please share.

As to the 92, it has a long history with our military, and like them, I am rather "meh" about the 92. Just not something I am interested in gunwise.

As to my 9mm Glock 17 I tried everything to induce the effect and could not. Any more loose of a hold would not have been safe!

Most Law Enforcement and many, many military have and do chose Glocks, for the very opposite reasons you state for leaving them. Doesnt depend on ammo, stance, perfect grip and are statistically one of the most, if not the most reliable handguns made.

 

[wally]

As this thread has developed I've become confused as to what exactly your failure is. A photo of it will be the only way to clarify.

 

[TestPilot]

"Limpwristing" is grossly exaggerated.

For the "My girlfriend and cause a malfunction every time" there is something else going on.

Even for light framed guns like Glock, I have to use a very unrealistic grip to induce it.

For a gun that is not broke, it takes more than lack of resistance passively retarding slide movement. That can be replicated through experiments, which I have done.

There is something actively retarding it. I believe it is the shooter anticipating pain flinching the gun rearward.

 

[GLOOB]

You have already admitted to shooting factory ammo without an issue, and that is it your handloads causing a problem, no? And it's happening with the 10rd mags in particular? Is the slide always locking back? I would try changing the powder charge a little, as well as experimenting with the OAL. If you're not at the max, yet, try upping the charge, a little.

Apologies, if I am mistaken.

 

[jeepnik]

One point, you may not be limp wristing. It's possible, I've seen it several times, that the geometry of your hand makes it difficult for you to reliably cycle a particular semi auto. Nothing wrong with you or the gun, you just aren't compatible.

Now you can continue to work with the 30, or just move on to something that does work for you. There are so many handguns out there that trying to make something work that just won't isn't worth the headache.

 

[SwampWolf]

I will add that I'm not at all interested in carrying a pistol (no matter the brand or type) for use in self-defense if it is particularly sensitive to being held "just so" before it can be relied upon to function correctly. Too many variables can happen in a "typical" self-defense scenario that might prevent securing the "proper" grip for me to depend on a "finicky" pistol in that regard.

 

[RussellC]

You have already admitted to shooting factory ammo without an issue, and that is it your handloads causing a problem, no? And it's happening with the 10rd mags in particular? Is the slide always locking back? I would try changing the powder charge a little, as well as experimenting with the OAL. If you're not at the max, yet, try upping the charge, a little.

Apologies, if I am mistaken.

Nope. Factory ammo is no better. I went to the range with 150-200 of my loads, factory ammo was 100 rounds Winchester 230 grain RN, Fedral 230 grain round nose, Hornady Critical Duty, boxes of 20. The critical duty caused the most trouble.

I also took with me a new OEM recoil spring assembly, a new extractor, extractor plunger, spring and bearing. I put in the new recoil spring and started in with the Winchester, which I have shot before. It began to FTF more than ever! Double checked the spring assembly, it was the correct one. I returned the original spring to the gun and it went back to its normal performance. I will photograph it the next time I am at the range.

I will be shooting along, and it happens, slide not all the way forward and there is a bullet jammed in there, angling up from the mag. If mag is removed, many times the bullet is still sticking out, angled up towards the chamber but still attached to mag by the back of the cartridge. Once in a while it is loose from the mag. To remove requires removing the mag, and using something to flip the bullet out, stuck in described position. Switching to the Critical Duty Hornady, with the red rubber looking tips, it was really bad. I think that was with the "New" recoil spring assembly. I Didnt try any more of that ammo with the original spring assembly.

Firing my reloads, about 2 every 100-200 rounds. Factory was somewhat more frequent, both Winchester and Federal, both 230 grain RN.

Next, I changed the extractor, still using the original Recoil assembly I put back in when the new one caused increased problems. No real change. Then I changed the Extractor plunger, spring and bearing. At this time the range was closing, but I got about 50 Winchester RN to function fine, about 30-40 of my reloads, with no incidents. I have loaded up a bunch of 230 grain RN, Precision Delta, with 5.4 grains of HP-38, at 1.265, more Precision Delta 230 RN with Power Pistol, 7.1 grains at 1.265, 10 pieces of the same with 7.7..yep pretty hot...just to try, and some 185 grain Hornady XTP (no red rubber tip kind) 8.0 grains of Power Pistol at 1.213. I will buy 150-200 of what ever 230 grain RN is at walmart or the range, and try again.

So, I have Eliminated the possibility of the Handloads, based on performance anyway, plus I have taken a micrometer to them and are just as good and consistent as factory ammo, in fact closer, measurement wise.

Either I got a defective new recoil assembly, or it and mine need more break in, which is odd for Glocks. This is the other reason I want to put a few hundred more rounds through it.

Now, as to magazines, It happens the same frequency with either of the 10 round mags that came with the gun. It also happened with the 13 round G21 mags. Also have a 9 round mag but didnt have it with me to try. Based on this, I dont think it is mags or springs...that notwithstanding, I am, calling Wolff Springs for some of their +10% jobs if it continues. Thought I would also get replacement followers, but as with springs, seems unlikely they would all be bad.

As to sending it back to Glock, I am going to call them Monday....frankly, I dont think they will fire the gun enough to make it happen. Maybe if I go to length to explain it is my carry gun, but my fear is they will put a mag or less through it and say its fine.

Final option, I have been considering buying a KKM barrel (famous for great feeding) seems ridiculous, but I would like a threaded barrel. I am buying a Glock 21 sf on wednesday from a dealer I know, and have discussed this problem with him. He is willing to trade for a new 30s as well, The difference I would pay is less than the barrel, if I buy the 21 aswell, which I am. Color me disappointed.

Oh, and Gloob, the slide isnt locked back, it is forward, just not all the way as a bullet is wedged in there!

Russellc

 

[RussellC]

SwampWolf and Jeepnik, it isnt that. Something is wrong with this particular gun, trust me.
If you are familiar with Glocks, in a proper running one this is non existent. However, I have a Glock Armourer, ex-police officer and a lot of other LEO and or Military folk, and I can let them run this latest batch through to eliminate this possibility. If you saw it gum up with the critical duty rounds, you would cringe. To think this is what I have kept in it! I now have Federal HST 230 grain HP which I bought a couple of extra boxes of just to try.

Next option is to buy another one and trade this one in. (yes, dealers idea, he knows about my troubles with it)

Russellc

 

[RussellC]

"Limpwristing" is grossly exaggerated.

For the "My girlfriend and cause a malfunction every time" there is something else going on.

Even for light framed guns like Glock, I have to use a very unrealistic grip to induce it.

For a gun that is not broke, it takes more than lack of resistance passively retarding slide movement. That can be replicated through experiments, which I have done.

There is something actively retarding it. I believe it is the shooter anticipating pain flinching the gun rearward.

Not this either, I have been shooting a long time and am in my 50s. No flinching, something is wrong with this gun. I will try shooting it from a rest to quell this idea. I appreciate all comments, but this isnt an inexperienced shooter, and I am not flinching. It is a Glock .45 for crying out loud, likely the easiest shooting .45 ever. I regularly fire 200-400 rounds per range visit with no pain, so I am not anticipating what does not exist. Most .40 guns strike me as way snappier. Any other Glock guns I have owned or fired even trying, I can not induce this effect. Nevertheless, I will do it in a rest, having someone else shoot it, the works. I am telling you, something is wrong with this gun!

Russellc

 

[jeepnik]

Has anyone else given it a try?