BushyGuy
Member
i would choose a .32 acp with 71 gr fmj over a .22lr in any bullet any day , i would even choose the .32 acp over the .22WMR i think the .32 acp is a better manstopper and penetrates deeper then either caliber at close range.
.32 vs .22LR for Self-Defense
- Thread starter The_Shootist
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I agree. When fired from a rifle, I'd have to give the edge to the .22 rimfire in terms of KE. When fired from a short barrelled handgun, you are lucky to get 90 foot-pounds. The .32 automatic has a larger, heavier bullet, and 130 foot pounds to play with.
MCgunner
Member
I never liked .32 and as the P3AT is the same size as the P32 and .380 is almost a good caliber, I can't see the need in .32 at all. I'm actually thinkin' getting a 4" NAA mini master in .22/.22mag next jumping over the P3AT which would fill a niche. I carry a P11 or a Taurus .38 ultralite mostly, but the mini master would fill a niche for me and be close to .32 (perhaps better) in performance with the mag cylinder. It's longer, though, with the long barrel, but I have several reasons to want it beyond a CCW option.
And, winter carry in Richmond? I don't remember wearing a coat last year except in the deer stand and on a couple of motorcycle trips.
And, winter carry in Richmond? I don't remember wearing a coat last year except in the deer stand and on a couple of motorcycle trips.
MCgunner
Member
Kind of apples and oranges as I wouldn't wanna have to carry my Ruger concealed even with the scope off of it. Accuracy, alone, makes it a better choice in an actual shoot out due to it's squirrel head 50 yard accuracy. I could put every shot in an eye socket with it at home defense ranges.
I watched my friend shoot his AMT 22 Mag auto with a 6" barrel at the shooting range the other day...8" of flame out the end...the cartridges are made for rifles and it was as loud as any big cal hand gun at the range. I'll stick to the PP in 32 cal. 'cus my Browning with the 7 1/4" barrel woun't fit in my pocket.
bigfatdave
Member
Why is this thread back from 5 years ago? That's some impressive thread necromancy there, BushyGuy!
If we must keep on topic ...
I want a KT P32 because I have an odd affinity for miniatures, and the occasional desire for a tiny pocket gun. If there was a conversion or identical pistol in .22, I would have one already, I've been resisting the call of the P32 by telling myself that the ammo is pricey, and that I can conceal a 9x19 pistol easily, so why get another mousegun?
I have a NAA revolver in .22mag/.22lr, and keep the nastiest little rimfire rounds I can find on hand for it ... but in the end it is more of a toy than a defensive pistol, even if it does make a great "get off me" gun. I wouldn't pack a semi-auto .22 unless I was severely limited somehow - the small ones aren't reliable enough, and the large reliable ones offer no concealment advantage, and still have the rimfire's reliability working against them.
If we must keep on topic ...
I want a KT P32 because I have an odd affinity for miniatures, and the occasional desire for a tiny pocket gun. If there was a conversion or identical pistol in .22, I would have one already, I've been resisting the call of the P32 by telling myself that the ammo is pricey, and that I can conceal a 9x19 pistol easily, so why get another mousegun?
I have a NAA revolver in .22mag/.22lr, and keep the nastiest little rimfire rounds I can find on hand for it ... but in the end it is more of a toy than a defensive pistol, even if it does make a great "get off me" gun. I wouldn't pack a semi-auto .22 unless I was severely limited somehow - the small ones aren't reliable enough, and the large reliable ones offer no concealment advantage, and still have the rimfire's reliability working against them.
smallbore
Member
I own a .32 and sometimes carry it as a backup. It's here on the desk as I write this. It's filled w/Gold Dots.
EmGeeGeorge
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.32 keltecs... have had two 32 keltecs... both of them rimlocked fairly often... hollow points and ball the same...
I have a 1903 that has never misfired/malfunctioned...
So a .32 can work, i just never had one work that was a keltec...
I have a bobcat that eats everything though... go fig.
I have a 1903 that has never misfired/malfunctioned...
So a .32 can work, i just never had one work that was a keltec...
I have a bobcat that eats everything though... go fig.
jackstinson
Member
I prefer .32 acp over .22LR in a carry gun. I love mouse guns....own dozens of them.
I've a couple Kel-Tec P32's (1st & 2nd generation designs) and a 2nd gen P3AT also. I also have a Beretta 21A .22LR and it's Taurus PT-22 .22LR clone....As well as pretty much everything else mentioned in the thread already.
Point is, I've dozens of .22, .25, .32 and .380 pocket guns to choose from. But I normally carry a 2nd gen Kel-Tec P32.
Rimlock has never been an issue on either of my Kel-Tec P-32's, nor any of my other .32acp pistols. My 2nd gen K-T P32 has never had so much as a sniffle nor a hiccup....not a single malfunction of any kind over a couple thousand rounds now. But then, my Beretta 21A has also been 100% reliable (with CCI Mini-Mags), it is simply a bit bulkier then the P32 to carry.
I've a couple Kel-Tec P32's (1st & 2nd generation designs) and a 2nd gen P3AT also. I also have a Beretta 21A .22LR and it's Taurus PT-22 .22LR clone....As well as pretty much everything else mentioned in the thread already.
Point is, I've dozens of .22, .25, .32 and .380 pocket guns to choose from. But I normally carry a 2nd gen Kel-Tec P32.
Rimlock has never been an issue on either of my Kel-Tec P-32's, nor any of my other .32acp pistols. My 2nd gen K-T P32 has never had so much as a sniffle nor a hiccup....not a single malfunction of any kind over a couple thousand rounds now. But then, my Beretta 21A has also been 100% reliable (with CCI Mini-Mags), it is simply a bit bulkier then the P32 to carry.
I prefer .380 as a minimum SD round. The problem with both the .32 and .22lr is penetration an expansion. Most .22lr and .32acp HP rounds do not expand, and the ones that do, like .22lr Stingers and .32acp corbons, do not penetrate well at all. Below is a bunch of gel test links. Pretty much a CCI Velocitor will penetrate as well as most .32ACP FMJ. If I was going to use a .22lr for self defense, I would use Velocitors. Would I pick a .22lr loaded with Velocitors over a .32acp? No.
I can put a .22lr bullet into the cavity of a .32acp hollowpoint. When your dealing with FMJ and the penetration is same .32 trumps .22 just like .45 trumps a 9mm
http://www.brassfetcher.com/oldindex.html
http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/tests.htm
I can put a .22lr bullet into the cavity of a .32acp hollowpoint. When your dealing with FMJ and the penetration is same .32 trumps .22 just like .45 trumps a 9mm
http://www.brassfetcher.com/oldindex.html
http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/tests.htm
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I'm gonna have to be unoriginal and say get the Kel-tec. They are very nice pistols, and very easy to conceal. In my opinion, it's one of the best self-defense guns you can get, because of it's size. .32 might look small, and people talk about it's stopping power... but you put some Gold Dots in that .32, and 1 shot should end any fight.
However, that being said, I do have a lot of respect for the .22. It's also a great round. like the .32, 1 shot sould stop any fight. If they want to fight after you shoot them, it's no problem to pop another into them. Often, just having the gun is enough to stop the fight. There are very few muggers, rapists, or murderers who would mess with someone once they see that gun, no matter how big or small it is.
Another great thing about using smaller calibers for self defense, is that you don't have to worry so much about the bullet flying through the assailant and hitting a bystander. Things like 9mm and .45's can fly through a person and still go through the wall of a house, especially if you are using hot NATO rounds. Even a good hollow point can still fly completely through a person.
Better safe than sorry, I says.
However, that being said, I do have a lot of respect for the .22. It's also a great round. like the .32, 1 shot sould stop any fight. If they want to fight after you shoot them, it's no problem to pop another into them. Often, just having the gun is enough to stop the fight. There are very few muggers, rapists, or murderers who would mess with someone once they see that gun, no matter how big or small it is.
Another great thing about using smaller calibers for self defense, is that you don't have to worry so much about the bullet flying through the assailant and hitting a bystander. Things like 9mm and .45's can fly through a person and still go through the wall of a house, especially if you are using hot NATO rounds. Even a good hollow point can still fly completely through a person.
Better safe than sorry, I says.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
If you have a need for a nostril-stuffer, go for the Kel-Tec in either .32 or .380.
okay...
I know the original poster hasn't probably looked at this thread in YEARS...but
Anyone who thinks that the 22lr (or even the 22 mag) will outperform the .32ACP from similar size pistol platforms has seriously neglected to do their research. From a 2.5" barrel a .32ACP bullet can still send a 60grn bullet at over 1000fps, and a 73 grn FMJ will do up to 900 fps. Even from a 22lr rifle, I have to say that the energy delivered from a p32 will be very even with the .22, and this does not include the extra diameter difference. Now factor in that .22 bullets are basically designed for killing tiny targets like squirrels and birds, and you will find that what results in shooting a large mamal will likely be a nasty flesh wound without adequate penetration to hit the CNS. On the other hand, the .32 round has long been used as a service pistol caliber, and has been loaded with a projectile much better suited to good penetration and tracking through meat and bone than an all-lead squirrel bullet. Of course, people have been killed with pellet guns, so any caliber CAN do the job, but I will personally take the round that is:
1.More reliable than a rimfire...and still less susceptable to rim-lock than any fully-rimmed case
2.Has a larger caliber
3.Has a higher velocity (from a pocket gun barrel)
4.Has a heavier projectile with a jacket that is designed for tougher targets
5.Because of the above factors delivers considerably more kinetic energy and penetration. The .32 trumps the .22 in every test of penetration, tissue damage, and Knock Down power that are usually used to determine the effectiveness of a defense round. Then again...it's all about shot placement.
Lets face it, bullet design is very important, but the general reason that a 10mm auto is more effective than a .380 auto is that it fires a larger diameter, heavier bullet, faster, which produces more energy, better penetration, and a larger wound cavity. If none of these points help you decide on why a .32acp is better than .22lr for self-defense, then I don't know what to tell you.
I know the original poster hasn't probably looked at this thread in YEARS...but
Anyone who thinks that the 22lr (or even the 22 mag) will outperform the .32ACP from similar size pistol platforms has seriously neglected to do their research. From a 2.5" barrel a .32ACP bullet can still send a 60grn bullet at over 1000fps, and a 73 grn FMJ will do up to 900 fps. Even from a 22lr rifle, I have to say that the energy delivered from a p32 will be very even with the .22, and this does not include the extra diameter difference. Now factor in that .22 bullets are basically designed for killing tiny targets like squirrels and birds, and you will find that what results in shooting a large mamal will likely be a nasty flesh wound without adequate penetration to hit the CNS. On the other hand, the .32 round has long been used as a service pistol caliber, and has been loaded with a projectile much better suited to good penetration and tracking through meat and bone than an all-lead squirrel bullet. Of course, people have been killed with pellet guns, so any caliber CAN do the job, but I will personally take the round that is:
1.More reliable than a rimfire...and still less susceptable to rim-lock than any fully-rimmed case
2.Has a larger caliber
3.Has a higher velocity (from a pocket gun barrel)
4.Has a heavier projectile with a jacket that is designed for tougher targets
5.Because of the above factors delivers considerably more kinetic energy and penetration. The .32 trumps the .22 in every test of penetration, tissue damage, and Knock Down power that are usually used to determine the effectiveness of a defense round. Then again...it's all about shot placement.
Lets face it, bullet design is very important, but the general reason that a 10mm auto is more effective than a .380 auto is that it fires a larger diameter, heavier bullet, faster, which produces more energy, better penetration, and a larger wound cavity. If none of these points help you decide on why a .32acp is better than .22lr for self-defense, then I don't know what to tell you.
Ike Arumba
Member
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2009
- Messages
- 47
Wikipedia says the .22 WMR is capable of producing 1500 ft/sec for a 30-grain bullet out of a hand gun. That equates to 149.9 ft-lbs. of energy. The S&B 73-grain .32 auto is rated at 1043 ft/sec out of a hand gun, which equates to 176.3 ft-lbs. So it looks to me like the .32 auto is a bit more powerful. Momentum swings more the .32's way.
jackstinson
Member
I went to the NAA website to see what they show for their .22 Magnum guns:
http://www.naaminis.com/naaveloc.html
Black Widow with 2" barrel: CCI Maxi-Mag 40gr JHP avg = 988 fps for 86.7 fpe.
Mini-Master with 4" barrel: CCI Maxi-Mag 40gr JHP avg = 972 fps for 83.9 fpe (yes, less).
Mini-Rev with 1 5/8" barrel: CCI Maxi-Mag 40gr JHP avg = 848 fps for 63.8 fpe.
Mini-Rev with 1 1/8" barrel: CCI Maxi-Mag 40gr JHP avg = 788 fps for 51.2 fpe.
If you just love the noise and flash, get a .22 Magnum mini-revolver.
But .22 Magnum isn't giving any more energy out of a pocket gun than .25acp.
And look at NAA's spec's for .22 LR :
Mini-Master with 4" barrel: CCI Mini-Mag 40gr solid avg = 903 fps for 72.4 fpe
Mini-Master with 4" barrel: CCI Stinger 32gr HP avg = 1060 fps for 79.8 fpe
Mini-Rev with 1 1/8" barrel: CCI Mini-Mag 40gr avg = 708 fps for a WHOPPING 44.5 fpe! WOW!
NOTE: Yes, I own an NAA 1 1/8" Mini...it's fun to play with.
NAA's website gives these specs for the .32acp Guardian (2 1/8" barrel):
Fed HydraShok 65gr JHP = 798fps for 91.9fpe.
Win Silvertip 60gr JHP = 805fps for 86.35fpe.
Speer Gold Dot 60gr JHP = 808fps for 87.0fpe.
Sellier & Bellot 73gr FMJ = 841fps for 114.6fpe
Sellier & Bellot's website has 73gr FMJ .32acp at 176fpe (muzzle velocity). But S&B doesn't say what barrel length.
There are some good "REAL" .32acp tests from a Kel-Tec P32 at Golden Loki.
http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/32acp/gel32acp.htm
S&B 73gr FMJ is rated there at 912fps for 135fpe (quite different than 176.3fpe).
Buffalo Bore cast lead = 914fps for 139fpe (BB's website's exaggerated figures are from a Beretta with a 4" barrel).
Corbon JHP = 1008fps for 135fpe
Fed HydraShok JHP = 824fps for 98fpe.
The old Geco FMJ rated highest at 947fps for 145fpe (if you can still find any for sale).
S&B and Fiocchi are my choices for .32acp.
http://www.naaminis.com/naaveloc.html
Black Widow with 2" barrel: CCI Maxi-Mag 40gr JHP avg = 988 fps for 86.7 fpe.
Mini-Master with 4" barrel: CCI Maxi-Mag 40gr JHP avg = 972 fps for 83.9 fpe (yes, less).
Mini-Rev with 1 5/8" barrel: CCI Maxi-Mag 40gr JHP avg = 848 fps for 63.8 fpe.
Mini-Rev with 1 1/8" barrel: CCI Maxi-Mag 40gr JHP avg = 788 fps for 51.2 fpe.
If you just love the noise and flash, get a .22 Magnum mini-revolver.
But .22 Magnum isn't giving any more energy out of a pocket gun than .25acp.
And look at NAA's spec's for .22 LR :
Mini-Master with 4" barrel: CCI Mini-Mag 40gr solid avg = 903 fps for 72.4 fpe
Mini-Master with 4" barrel: CCI Stinger 32gr HP avg = 1060 fps for 79.8 fpe
Mini-Rev with 1 1/8" barrel: CCI Mini-Mag 40gr avg = 708 fps for a WHOPPING 44.5 fpe! WOW!
NOTE: Yes, I own an NAA 1 1/8" Mini...it's fun to play with.
NAA's website gives these specs for the .32acp Guardian (2 1/8" barrel):
Fed HydraShok 65gr JHP = 798fps for 91.9fpe.
Win Silvertip 60gr JHP = 805fps for 86.35fpe.
Speer Gold Dot 60gr JHP = 808fps for 87.0fpe.
Sellier & Bellot 73gr FMJ = 841fps for 114.6fpe
Sellier & Bellot's website has 73gr FMJ .32acp at 176fpe (muzzle velocity). But S&B doesn't say what barrel length.
There are some good "REAL" .32acp tests from a Kel-Tec P32 at Golden Loki.
http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/32acp/gel32acp.htm
S&B 73gr FMJ is rated there at 912fps for 135fpe (quite different than 176.3fpe).
Buffalo Bore cast lead = 914fps for 139fpe (BB's website's exaggerated figures are from a Beretta with a 4" barrel).
Corbon JHP = 1008fps for 135fpe
Fed HydraShok JHP = 824fps for 98fpe.
The old Geco FMJ rated highest at 947fps for 145fpe (if you can still find any for sale).
S&B and Fiocchi are my choices for .32acp.
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Ike Arumba
Member
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2009
- Messages
- 47
Thanks for the leg work, Jack.
I gather that S&B's figures are for a 4 inch barrel, which I have read is the standard length for rating pistol ammo. The P32 used by GoldenLoki has a 68mm = 2.67 inch barrel. Subtracting the 17mm case length from the two yields 51mm acceleration length for the P32 vs. 84.6mm acceleration length for the standard barrel. I.e., the P32 has slightly over 60% of the acceleration length of the standard barrel. That probably accounts for the difference between stated vs. measured energy.
I would hazard a guess that there aren't a lot of .32 ACP pistols with 4 inch barrels. .22LR pistols with barrels longer than that are common.
I gather that S&B's figures are for a 4 inch barrel, which I have read is the standard length for rating pistol ammo. The P32 used by GoldenLoki has a 68mm = 2.67 inch barrel. Subtracting the 17mm case length from the two yields 51mm acceleration length for the P32 vs. 84.6mm acceleration length for the standard barrel. I.e., the P32 has slightly over 60% of the acceleration length of the standard barrel. That probably accounts for the difference between stated vs. measured energy.
I would hazard a guess that there aren't a lot of .32 ACP pistols with 4 inch barrels. .22LR pistols with barrels longer than that are common.
eatont9999
Member
I would go with a .32ACP any day. .22lrs tend to misfire and jam a lot more and they are a lighter bullet.
Penetration Tests
.22 Mag from a 2" Taurus (8 shots)
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1455.htm
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1541.htm
.32 from a KelTec (7+1)
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page752.htm
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page695.htm
.22 Mag from a 2" Taurus (8 shots)
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1455.htm
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1541.htm
.32 from a KelTec (7+1)
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page752.htm
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page695.htm
jackstinson
Member
There are a plethora of .32acp's with 3.5"-4.5" barrels; Colt 1908, Beretta, Bersa, Walther, Star, etc. Smith & Wesson even built a Model 952 target pistol for the .32acp. It has been used as a police and military sidearm cartridge in many countries since it's introduction in 1899. Loads of guns larger than pocket pistols were, and still are, made for the cartridge.
I have a few; Walther PP, Beretta M1935, FEG AP7, M74 (Carpati M94), Jennings M38 (the .32acp version), Davis P32. And IIRC, the "wow" .32acp Buffalo Bore specs were originally created using a Beretta Puma .32acp (4")....although that text is now missing from their site.
NAA has "hyper-velocity" .22 specs for their gun's also. Although the Aquila Supermax isn't among the ones they tested (a fun round though). Steve's Pages has loads of good .22 and .32 tests using various barrel lengths. KTOG has good links for Kel-Tec size pistols. There are many many websites with test info on .22LR, .22Mag, and .32 to make some basic comparisons. Google is your friend.
woad_yurt
Member
Test: Supermaximums vs Stingers vs Velocitors....
A while back, I took these three and a couple of others and did some informal 2X4 testing. I had 3 revolvers, with 3", 4" and 6" barrels. I shot all ammo from all 3 guns at 12" range (muzzle to wood distance.)
The Aguila Supermaximums penetrated most, slightly more than the Velocitors, and all of the rest, Stingers included, weren't even close. The longer the barrel, the more the Velocitors gained ground on the Aguilas. Still, with the 6" barrel, the Aguilas went 3/64" (approx) deeper. The results were very consistent, too.
Velocitors were best at longer distances with a rifle as the Aguilas lost more oomph downrange.
So, after all of that, when I want some .22LR power, I go with Aguila Supermaximums in my revolvers and Velocitors in my rifles. Oh yeah, for self defense, use solid points whenever possible. Gotta get in there, you know?
A while back, I took these three and a couple of others and did some informal 2X4 testing. I had 3 revolvers, with 3", 4" and 6" barrels. I shot all ammo from all 3 guns at 12" range (muzzle to wood distance.)
The Aguila Supermaximums penetrated most, slightly more than the Velocitors, and all of the rest, Stingers included, weren't even close. The longer the barrel, the more the Velocitors gained ground on the Aguilas. Still, with the 6" barrel, the Aguilas went 3/64" (approx) deeper. The results were very consistent, too.
Velocitors were best at longer distances with a rifle as the Aguilas lost more oomph downrange.
So, after all of that, when I want some .22LR power, I go with Aguila Supermaximums in my revolvers and Velocitors in my rifles. Oh yeah, for self defense, use solid points whenever possible. Gotta get in there, you know?
jad0110
Member
Wow, thread resucitation alert!
An old post mentioned 32 vs 380 in tiny pocket guns, specifically the Keltec P32 and P3AT and why one would choose the 32 over the 380.
#1 Ammo availability. 32 is still fairly easy to come by in my area. 380 is almost non existant.
#2 Controllability. I've got pretty big hands, and find the snappy recoil of the tiny P3AT very difficult to hang onto. I'm always afraid it's gonna jump out of my hands and hit me face. Or worse, result in an ND in not-so-safe direction. I don't recall ever having fired a 32 ACP of any type, but assume controllability would be noticeably better.
As for the original question, I'd go 32 given the better reliability (typically) by itself.
An old post mentioned 32 vs 380 in tiny pocket guns, specifically the Keltec P32 and P3AT and why one would choose the 32 over the 380.
#1 Ammo availability. 32 is still fairly easy to come by in my area. 380 is almost non existant.
#2 Controllability. I've got pretty big hands, and find the snappy recoil of the tiny P3AT very difficult to hang onto. I'm always afraid it's gonna jump out of my hands and hit me face. Or worse, result in an ND in not-so-safe direction. I don't recall ever having fired a 32 ACP of any type, but assume controllability would be noticeably better.
As for the original question, I'd go 32 given the better reliability (typically) by itself.
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