Civil discussion about 10mm, .40 cal, .357 please

[leadcounsel]

I truly feel that the .40 is the best multipurpose self defense load for me for these reasons:

While the .357 is superior to the .40, I have 3x the capacity in my Glock 35 and have quicker reloads in the semi-auto.

I own and mostly shoot .40 caliber pistols. I'm not particularly sensitive to handgun recoil. I've never shot a .357 sig or a 10mm.

Can somebody please convince me that the 10mm or the .357 is worth the added cost of getting new guns and buying more expensive ammo.... or, can I convert my .40 pistols (Glock, Springfield XDs) to 10mm or .357

OR

Can somebody tell me that the .40 is marginally less than the 10mm or the .357Sig and to not be that concerned with this marginal difference.

Basically, is the difference in performance worth the added cost of a new pistol and more expensive ammo, or is it too insignificant (practically speaking) to worry about?

I'd like to see some ballistics comparison if you have it handy.

Thanks.

 

[BARRETT]

one place [out of 8million]
http://stevespages.com/page8f.htm

 

[vanilla_gorilla]

Is it worth it? That's a question only you can answer.

If the performance of a .40 makes you smile, you damn sure be giggling with the 10mm. IIRC, the 180 grain pill that gets 990fps out of factory .40cal loadings will go into the neighborhood of 1350fps from DoubleTap ammo. Less if you handload, and a LOT less if you buy other factory loadings.

Is it necessary? Given the two, I don't honestly think either would be a great deal more effective in a "social situation", but if you can shoot the 10mm fast and accurately, it's there.

But then again, what do I know, I'm still perfectly happy with a .45.

 

[ozarkhillbilly]

I have all three and the 10mm and .357sig are both more fun then my .40cal. While the .40cal will work for most situations so will the 9mm and that ammo is even cheaper yet. Buy what you like and shoot it alot thats what counts.

 

[Technosavant]

You can often convert a .40S&W to a .357SIG. You would have to contact the manufacturer (or someone more knowledgable about those specific guns) about the method of doing so, but I believe it will involve a new barrel.

If I could convert a gun, I would do that for starters- the money you save will buy a bunch of ammo. Or take up reloading and then shoot whatever you want for less money.

 

[Geno]

I Can Scarcely Tell the Difference

I've fired all of the rounds that you mentioned, and them some. I can scarcely tell the difference in terms of recoil. I do see differences on paper--more power, more velocity, better penetration to the degree that some are "better" for hunting.

But on a day-to-day basis, for target shooting and for CCW, I just don't see any rational basis for expending good money for a marginal increase. If you like what you own, keep it. That is the very rationale on which I based my decision to not purchase a .40 S&W. I shoot my 9MMs and my .45 ACPs well, and the power differential just isn't there for me.

Doc2005

 

[AK103K]

With the SIG's, all that is needed is a barrel swap to do the change. (you may need to get different mags, depending on what you bought first. The 357's will work in .40 mags, but not vice versa, as the 357 mags, "step down" at the neck.)

I switched from .45 to 357SIG about 8 months ago, and so far, have been very happy with the choice. The round is very accurate and easy to shoot well with. If your used to a .40 or .45, you wont have any problems. Its definitely hotter than the 9mm though.

If your going to "try" and do comparisons, it will probably be best to pick makers that load for each and compare their data. Most comparisons thrown around, especially between 9mm and the 357SIG, are not apples to apples comparisons, and usually suit the users needs to make their point, at the moment. The 9mm cant have it all ways, you give up something, and your always going to be chasing the SIG in power, even at its hottest loadings.

Realistically, I dont know that you'll get anything but a headache out of them anyway. Pick what you like the best, and shoot the best with, and I'm sure you will be fine. If your smart, and see trouble coming, you'll be the one bringing a rifle to the gunfight anyway.

 

[antsi]

I don't think there is enough difference between any of them to be worth fretting about. Any one of them will do the job if you do your job. None of them will help you if you don't.

 

[MCgunner]

What are you calling a .357? The .357 Sig is NOT superior to the .40. You can get lighter bullet loads that make well over 500 ft lbs in the .40. Also, you can shoot heavier bullets if you're a momentum kinda guy and you don't give up that much energy. The 10 and the .357 magnum are hotter, capable of 700+ ft lbs from longer barrels, but the .40 is plenty adequate for self defense. I wouldn't go hunting with it, but as a self defense gun I use less, actually. I prefer 9mm/.38 special compacts/J frames for carry. They're plenty powerful enough with a good COM hit or three.

Don't get carried too much away with horsepower. You need to be able to hit with what you are using. If you shoot the .40 well, what's the problem? You're reading too many friggin' magazines, maybe?

 

[JohnKSa]

Converting .40 to 10mm is not possible. Converting .40 to .357Sig is usually possible, but you should contact the manufacturer of the firearm first. Beretta states that their .40 Cal 96 series pistols should not be converted to .357 Sig.

These days, full-power 10mm is not so common. Most ammo companies sell 10mm ammo loaded to .40S&W specs. This has given rise to the very mistaken impression that the .40S&W and the 10mm are similar in power.

However, in the 180 gr bullet weight (to pick an example), 10mm outperforms the .40S&W by well over 200fps, 200ft/lbs and will have 20% more momentum/power factor.

This is larger than the performance difference between the common loadings of standard pressure 124gr 9mm rounds and the 125gr .357Sig.

 

[surfinUSA]

I'm also a big fan of the 40. I like its power in a 9mm sized easy to conceal and handle gun. I also like the 10mm in the G20. By necessity it is quite a bit larger than the 40s. It has its place and is a great woods gun.

I have a 40 S&W conversion barrel for my G20 because 10mm ammo is hard to find in Miami and 40 S&W is not. The various 40 S&W rounds i've used in the G20 have worked fine with the conversion barrel and no other modifications.

I thought about getting a 357 sig conversion barrel for the G20 or one of my 40s, but I really don't need to add another hard to find, expensive caliber to my collection. The 10mm fills that space and is alot more versatile than the 357 sig.

 

[Soybomb]

Well heres 2 of my favorite defensive rounds in 10mm shot into denim covered gel, both by doubletap
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"

I haven't seen a .357 or .40 that can do that. Thats a pretty good increase in total wound volume. Is it worth it? Well thats up to you, the ammo is more expensive for sure. There is more recoil too, although its not the horror story that people make it out to be at all. My carry gun is a 9mm though, 10mm is for fun. I can't afford to practice enough with my 10 til I start reloading.

You can change a 10mm glock to shoot .40 with just a barrel swap though.

 

[ARTiger]

The hottest 10mm rounds offer significantly more velocity, heavier bullets and more energy than the hottest .40 S&W rounds. However, if you don't reload, the availability of a variety of ammo is suspect and the cost is much higher.

Is the .40 S&W plenty adequate for self defense? Certainly. Here's a hot load from Buffalo Bore in .40 S&W that few BG's would get up from . . .

(P/N 23A/20) Heavy 40 S&W +P 155gr. Speer Uni Core (1300 fps 582 ft. lbs.)
>That's a hotter round than quite a few standard .357 magnum loadings<

Personally I'd spend the extra bucks buying ammo for and getting really good shooting your .40 S&W. Maybe something like a crimson trace grip, etc.

 

[Black Snowman]

Ditto Antsi. I've got many calibers at my disposal and all my "carry" style autos are 40 S&W except for my P3AT. I think the 40 S&W is the best compromise of size and power available, and so do millions of other people. The 10mm is great for power and the 45 makes nice big holes but when all of the factors are considerd I keep coming back to the 40.

 

[C-grunt]

As I have said before here, I dont believe the .357sig is a big enough jump in power over the 9mm for ME to justify the extra cost/availability. Dont get me wrong, the .357 is a good round with lots of power. IIRC I was reading a Glock pamphlet that stated the 9mm, .40, and the .45 as having an effective range of 50 meters, while the .357 and the 10mm were 100 meters. I will have to look that up again.

As for the 10mm and the .40SW, thats a big jump.
180 grn .40SW does around 950 FPS
180 grn 10mm does around 1300 FPS

 

[leadcounsel]

This is the conversation I"m looking for.

I do some camping in the rockies so a 10mm would make me feel more comfortable than my .40... however I could always just carry my .357 Magnum...

I'm 'leaning' toward getting a Glock 10mm. I love Glocks and already carry one. If I could swap out the 10mm barrel for a .40 that would be a good purchase in my opinion due to the versatiliy.

I'll look into that option, but keep the conversation rolling.

 

[Vitamin G]

I think the 40 S&W is the best compromise of size and power available

I totally agree with you. 40 S&W compromises on both size and power.
I wanted the best of both worlds, so i went 10mm

 

[jc2]

The 10mm is not the "best of both worlds." In terms of carry, the 10mm requires a noticably larger weapon than the .40 S&W. In terms of calibre, it is the same size as the .40 S&W. In terms of power, the 10mm does offer more power than the .40 S&W which might useful on the hunting fields, however there is nothing to indicate it offers any advantage in effectiveness over the .40 S&W in an anti-personnel role.

 

[leadcounsel]

Actually, the platforms for the calibers is the same. The G20 10mm is the same as the G22 .40. Same is true with CZs and Witnesses. It's the same size gun in any caliber.

 

[doofus]

The G20 10mm is the same as the G22 .40. Same is true with CZs and Witnesses. It's the same size gun in any caliber.

Actually no (at least in the case of the glock). Yes, G22 and G20 are both considered standard size, but the G20/G21 are actually larger than the rest of the standard size Glocks.

G20 dimensions
G22 dimensions

 

[warriorsociologist]

Leadcounsel,

If you have small hands, you'll want to stick with the .40 or consider a single stack 10mm (1911 or a now discontinued S&W 10xx series - though they will be heavier) if you want to move to a 10mm. One of the things you do want to do before racking your brain about this is to try to find & test fire a few 10mm handguns. The grip on a 10mm / .45 caliber Glock is significantly larger than a 9mm/.40/.357sig Glock. Most men with medium to large hands will have little trouble with the larger grip frame, but it will probably take some getting used to vs. the smaller glock frames.

FWIW, I can "grip" the 10mm G20 just fine, but I rarely carry it unless I am hiking, hunting, or in heavy clothes. It is more of an "everything gun" only if you want to include some short-range med game hunting/critter defense in your repertoire (though I prefer to hunt with a wheelgun if using 10mm FWIW & you will want to check your local min. barrel length laws carefully before hand either way). Anyway, it sounds like you will continue to be well served by a .40 or even a 9mm for EDC. Think of the .40 as a "10mm special" if you will - it still works just fine & there are lots of effective .40 cal factory loads out there. Most of the time, you don't "need" the extra "flash & bang / shock & awe" of a "magnum" round as "standard" rounds will often do just fine for most purposes. As much of a 10mm fan I am, my EDC actually rotates between a S&W 642 (.38 spec.) and a Glock 19 (9mm) 90% of the time. The way I figure it, I have 3 size categories of CCW pieces that I match with anticipated conditions & my clothing for that day. The j-frame is my pocket-carry "always gun", the G19 is taken when I have a sport coat/suit/sweater/etc. on, and the G20 gets the nod when I am less concerned about comfort and want to have "a little something extra" on tap if needed (hell, it's still smaller than the M9 I have to conceal in the military). YMMV.

Anyway, back to your original question. To me, it sounds like you are looking to possible sell off what you have and move to a .357 sig or 10mm....so my suggestion is "don't do it" and stick with what you have unless you think you might want to drop in a 6" barrel in a 10mm someday and hunt with it. P.S. If you really want a fast bottle-necked cartridge & are willing to pay for it in ammo costs, get a 10mm and then buy a 6" 9x25 Dillon conversion barrel (think .40 vs. 10mm = .357sig vs. 9x23...and then 9x25 - roughly speaking.). Whatever you choose, go and test fire a few of these before you make your call.

Good luck.

 

[Vitamin G]

What I mean by "Best of both worlds" is capacity and power.

9mm = more capacity
.45acp = more power

15+1 rounds of near magnum performance, and larger wound channel, at the same grip size as a .45

I dunno why either, I have small hands, but i grip the G20 better than a did my G26 with extensions.
I also prefer 1911's.
I'm getting a G29 with my tax refund check

 

[leadcounsel]

Good points all...

I have larger hands (can palm a basketball) and am not particularly recoil sensitive. Glocks, 92FS, Xds etc. fit my hand very well. 1911s I find to also fit well, possibly a little too thin. Thin single stack guns only have the advantage for concealment purposes.

I'm really on the fence here. I could just carry my .357 Magnum for my handful of camping trips during the summer and continue to rely on the .40 for my daily carry.

Or, I could treat myself to a new 10mm (I'm in the market for a Glock and also for my first CZ -- could get the Witness instead) anyway with profits from an upcoming financial deal. Get some .40 barrels for each too....

Decisions decisions....

 

[Guns_and_Labs]

I'm really on the fence here. I could just carry my .357 Magnum for my handful of camping trips during the summer and continue to rely on the .40 for my daily carry.

The .357 Magnum can be a wonderful backcountry cartridge if properly loaded. I haven't seen any .357SIG cartridges with proper anti-critter loadings; maybe they're out there. I'd be hesitant relying on standard .357SIG or .40S&W loadings in the great outdoors. [Personally I don't like them in the city, either, but that's my own bias.]

But if Glocks fit you right, you like them, and you're looking for a purchase, a Glock 20 or 29 should fit the bill. .40 barrels are available, if you really want to swap around. I have a G29 that is frequently my backcountry carry. I'd probably prefer a G20, given the higher round count, but I live in CA and standard capacity G20 mags are not available here.

 

[Haycreek]

10mm 40 or 357

Each of the three can be good answers, just depends on what you like. I have went thru three 40 S&W, don't have one now. Personally the 45 and 357 are my favorites of the three mentioned. For everyday carry, it is a model 1911 or a [hold on to you hat] a model 37 Glock 45 GAP! I carry the 357 or 44 mag at the ranch. Nothing wrong with a properly loaded 9MM however. The thing that matters mostly is what you like and PLACEMENT !