Civil discussion about 10mm, .40 cal, .357 please

[loadedround]

I am an owner of a Colt Delta Elite in 10mm and I am really found of this caliber. But to be practical the 10 mm is now in the catagory of "classic catridges" and is getting more or more difficult to get factory ammo for it and there is very little variety when found. Also I believe only two manufacturers make pistols in this caliber. Ever since the FBI dropped this round for the 40 S&W it has become less and less popular especially for people with small hands. I would not consider this round unless I was a reloader(which I am) and have access to a large quantity of cases(which I do). Think 225 Win or 8mm Rem mag.

 

[critrxdoc]

Here is the picture comparing several calibers in ballistic gel side by side that demonstrate little difference between them. Not included are the 357mag and 10mm. I agree with the other posters that the difference between the 9mm, .40, and .357sig are minimal with velocities in that order. The 10mm is in a different category with performance slightly superior to the .357mag and similiar to lower end of the .41mag. I carry a G-23 or G-17 as my CCW and feel confident with either, but a 12gauge pump with 00buck and a G-20 10mm protect my home and family.

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000581;p=1

 

[AK103K]

Mmmm, if you went by the cavities in that pic, the 9mm is nowhere near the others, by about a third. The 357SIG is right up there with the .40's and .45, and possibly a tad bigger than the .40's in the larger portions of the cavity.

If the 357SIG performs about the same in soft tissue as the larger calibers, shoots flatter, longer, which the big calibers generally dont, and still out penetrates "barriers" better, which, according to some reports it does, and was one reason for some agency's acceptance, then it sounds like they got pretty close to the desired results, an automatic .357Mag.

I havent had an opportunity to try the 357SIG out on any car doors yet, but I've shot enough of them over the years with a .45 to know its not the best round on getting through things. 9mm ball was usually always better. Sounds like the 357SIG is starting to look like the best of both worlds, barrier penetration like 9mm ball, with results similar to the larger calibers in soft tissue. If it all pans out, what more could you ask for.

Personally, the data I'd rather hear about, is actual shooting data on living things and how well it did or did not perform. All the gel, paper data, and car bodies aside, is nice and all, but confusing and mostly, well, more confusing and inconclusive.

Dead is dead, and the one that does it fastest and deadest, firstest, seems to me would be the winner. So where are all those tests?

 

[leadcounsel]

Does anyone know the exact reason why the FEDS dropped the 10mm?

Does anyone know the exact reason why the FEDS dropped the 10mm in favor of the .40?

I've heard remarks about stout recoil, smaller field agents, and too much barrier penetration... any thoughts?

 

[JohnKSa]

The FBI chose a reduced power 10mm loading to ameliorate the recoil. When S&W figured out that they could duplicate that power level in a smaller case and therefore a smaller gun, it was only a matter of time...

there is nothing to indicate it offers any advantage in effectiveness over the .40 S&W in an anti-personnel role.

jc2,
I agree with this, but only because the statement is strictly true--that is, there is no evidence to suggest that it is more effective in an antipersonnel role over the .40 S&W.

However, that is because, strictly speaking, there is little or no evidence to indicate that ANY of the service class pistol calibers (9mm, .357SIG, .40S&W, 10mm, .45ACP, .38SPl) have any significant advantage in effectiveness over any of the others in the class in an anti-personnel role.

I guess the question that springs to mind is: What do you consider reasonable evidence that a given service class pistol caliber "offers any advantage in effectiveness" over any other service class pistol caliber "in an anti-personnel role"?

The root of the matter is that there is not and has never been any universally agreed upon definition of what gives one caliber an advantage in an anti-personnel role over another caliber in the same general class. There certainly is no question at all that the 10mm (speaking purely from a caliber standpoint) shows a clear superiority in performance over the .40 S&W in any MEASURABLE parameter excepting bullet diameter. Parameters such as momentum, power factor, kinetic energy, velocity, trajectory, the ability to handle heavier bullets, etc.

You are absolutely correct in your comments regarding the size of 10mm pistols. In general, a 10mm pistol is noticeably larger and heavier than a similar capacity pistol chambered in .40 S&W.

 

[FireBreather01]

Does anyone know the exact reason why the FEDS dropped the 10mm?

While recoil and over-penetration are oft-cited reasons for the FBI dropping the round, those issues were 'used' to discredit the 10mm for reasons of professional jealousy during a political battle that was fought within the Bureau at the time. There was one agent in particular that became associated closely with the 10mm project and he and his 'pet project' became the object of derision and somewhat of a smear campaign. The 10mm was more victim of politics than performance.

For more comprehensive information on the 10mm please see Gary's site for 10mm info galore! It's excellent. - http://www.home.earthlink.net/~gnappi/index.htm

 

[Soybomb]

Mmmm, if you went by the cavities in that pic, the 9mm is nowhere near the others, by about a third. The 357SIG is right up there with the .40's and .45, and possibly a tad bigger than the .40's in the larger portions of the cavity.

What you're talking about is the temporary cavity, not the permanent cavity. Most of the people regarded as being ballistics experts agree that temporary cavity is of little to no importance in handguns since it does generally no damage. Thats more or less a complete misinterpretation of the graph.

 

[vynx]

leadcounsel - for 2 legged threats I think the .40 is fine but for out in the woods, mtns, etc. the 10mmm seems better for protection against animals or for hunting. To me, the glock 10mm has an advantage over .357 mag revolvers in that it is lighter for a given barrel length anf has greater capacity.

But, it depends on where you go camping. And what you might encounter.

 

[jc2]

The bottom line is the .40 S&W works as well in a LE/anit-personnel role as the 10mm but in a smaller, lighter, easier to carry package. FWIW, we need to remember the FBI dropped the 10mm in favour of the 9x19. The .40 S&W was only recently adopted by the FBI.

 

[roo_ster]

From what you have written, you don't NEED another/different weapon to serve as EDC (.40) and backwoods weapon (.357mag).

I am not a .40 fan, but it will surely do the antipersonnel job just fine. No NEED to change, but you might have some fun trying out different weapons.

If you are worried about 4-legged critters in the sticks or possibly using your sidearm to harvest some protein, .40 is lacking in comparison to .357mag & 10mm, period.

.357mag has it all over the .40 (& .357sig) in terms of penetration when stoked with bullets weighing more than 125gr. Loads can be found in gun stores up to 180gr that will penetrate like crazy and are still flatter-shooting than equivalent weight .40 rounds. Mail order can get you 200gr bullets.

10mm is in the same realm as .357mag power & penetration wise, but obtainable in a semi-auto. FWIW, I have shot the small Glock 29 10mm and found it accurate & controllable. Quite a nice package.

 

[cookekdjr]

leadcounsel,

I have investigated and prosecuted hundreds of homicide cases, and hundreds (if not thousands) of other non-fatal shootings.
I can tell you without hesitation that nothing outperforms the .40in a self-defense role. Generally speaking, .357, .45 ACP, and .40 S&W all perform the same. .357 is more load dependant, and has had some notable failures. But in the shooting investigations and prosecutions I've been involved in, the three calibers all perform about the same. Some platforms may work better with different calibers (say, the 1911 platform probably works best with .45, for example), but generally speaking, any of the three perform exceptionally well.
If you shoot a .40 accurately, then stick with it. There is absolutely no reason to change calibers from a stopping power standpoint.

 

[warriorsociologist]

The bottom line is the .40 S&W works as well in a LE/anit-personnel role as the 10mm but in a smaller, lighter, easier to carry package. FWIW, we need to remember the FBI dropped the 10mm in favour of the 9x19. The .40 S&W was only recently adopted by the FBI.

I believe at the time of the adoption of the 9mm by the FBI, the .40 wasn't in the running (9mm, .45, and the 10mm were all the was considered). I thought that .40 S&W came to be a couple years later as the result of the desire to cram what was already known as the "FBI lite" 10mm load into a "9mm-size-framed" pistol? So, they shortened the case and created the .40 S&W. Here's another link to a well-compiled history of the 10mm. http://www.bren-ten.com/id7.html

FWIW, there is lots of good info there. The info specifically pertaining to the .40 is as follows:

.40 SMITH & WESSON

The .40 Smith & Wesson is easily the most popular of the 10mm Auto offspring. In fact it has become so popular that it has pushed its predecessor out of the limelight and into relative obscurity.

The .40 S&W was a collaborative effort between Smith & Wesson and Winchester. The actual concept for the cartridge had been around a while, but when the FBI decided to download the 10mm Auto the time was right. Basically the idea behind the .40 S&W was to duplicate the FBI 10mm "Lite" loading, but at the same time shorten the case enough so that the new round would fit in a 9mm Parabellum platform giving the the handgun a greater cartridge capacity. Winchester loaded a 180gn JHP bullet at 980fps while Smith & Wesson modified their 59xx series for the larger cartridge and introduced the S&W 40xx series pistols. The .40 S&W was released to the public in January of 1990 and it became an instant success and soon numerous other firearm manufacturers were racing to bring out their own .40 S&W guns.

The .40 S&W cartridge has become incredibly popular. Now the FBI, which made the 10mm Auto the preeminent law enforcement cartridge only a few short years before, has switched to Glocks chambered for the .40 S&W.

It's still worth reading the entire page though as it contains much more on this subject. ALso, in case I missed someone's post of this elsewhere, Tom Marten's page on the 10mm is here: http://www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/10/10mm-advoc.htm <-- It's of course only his opinion on this subject too & it will need to be read with "a grain of salt" ....esp. if you are not at least open to becoming a convert...

 

[agtman]

"...we need to remember the FBI dropped the 10mm in favour of the 9x19. The .40S&W was only recently adopted by the FBI."

Incorrect - but that's not really a surprise.

The correct chronology begins in the late 1980s (circa 1987-88) when the FBI was then undergoing a kind of internecine "caliber" battle between the 9mm advocates and the .45acp stalwarts, all prompted by competing hindsight analysis of the 1986 Miami firefight that resulted in dead and wounded agents.

SA John Hall, head of the FTU, suggested the Bureau take a close look at a third cartridge, the 10mm AUTO. Interest was peaked and eventually the 10mm was placed in competitive testing against the other two (the .40S&W was not yet invented).

I believe this link to Hall's 1989 article explaining this is still good. It reviews the testing protocols and the results, the bottom line being that the 10mm bested both the 9mm and .45acp in the two areas the FBI was most interested in: penetration (especially against intermediate barriers) and accuracy. Here's the link:

http://www.textfiles.com/politics/GUNS//10mmpist.txt

The .40S&W, as a auto cartridge, didn't come into being until just after the FBI's 1989 adoption of the 10mm and the issuance of S&W 1076s to field agents.

Beginning in the late 1990s (not "recently"), the FBI began officially "transitioning" new agents to the .40S&W (Glock 22s/23s), although at that point older agents still retained the authority to carry what they had previously qualified with, to include autos in .45acp and 9mm (e.g., Sigs), as well as the 10mm 1076. In point of fact many decided to keep their 1076s for as long as they could.

As late as 2001 it was said that you could identify an experienced senior agent by the 1076 he still carried. Probably by now all the field agents are armed with one of the Glock "foties," excepting those HRT/SWAT-trained personnel who also qualified with the Springfield .45.

 

[jc2]

The 1076 (10mm) was dropped after a brief flirtation in favour of the P228 (9x19). The G22/23 (.40 S&W) was only recently adopted (mid-1997).

The "full-power" version of the 10mm was never adopted. A moderate, the 190-grain Federal JHP, load was initially adopted, but it quickly morphed into what is commonly referred to the "FBI-Lite" load. Overall, the FBI's flirtation with the 10mm was very brief--just a flash in the pan. As soon as the .40 S&W hit the street, the 10mm was DRT as a LE calibre.

 

[stiletto raggio]

As for converting a .40 to a 10mm, it can be done and is done with regularity. In a 1911 platform, it only takes a barrel swap or a reamed chamber. The USP .40 has been converted with a chamber reaming, heavier springs and a steel magazine (para ord, I believe).

The standard FBI subgun is still the HKMP5 10mm, and they use HOT loads. Probably the best subgun configuration out there.

As to "stopping power," it is my firm belief--nay, a fact--that a CNS or pelvis hit is the only way to really "drop" someone immediately, but an arterial shot will kill pretty quickly, too. As always, shot placement is key, but a more powerful weapon give you more room for imperfect shot placement. Some would argue it also contributes to poor shot placement, but I disagree. I can shoot a 10mm as fast accurately as I can shoot a 9mm with the same degree of precision; my shooting platform has more to do with recovery than the round does.

Try the 10mm. If you like it, get one. If not, don't. No skin off my back.

 

[JohnKSa]

The bottom line is the .40 S&W works as well in a LE/anit-personnel role as the 10mm ...

You misunderstand. Your opinion was stated quite clearly in your earlier post; there is no need to reiterate.

I was asking for the evidence you used to develop this opinion.

 

[jc2]

I really wasn't replying to you. You did agree with my statement:

jc2,
I agree with this, but only because the statement is strictly true--that is, there is no evidence to suggest that it is more effective in an antipersonnel role over the .40 S&W.

I thought you summed it up rather well yourself:

there is little or no evidence to indicate that ANY of the service class pistol calibers (9mm, .357SIG, .40S&W, 10mm, .45ACP, .38SPl) have any significant advantage in effectiveness over any of the others in the class in an anti-personnel role.

The .40 S&W in particular, as well as the 9x19 (at least with current generation, premium JHPs), the 357 SIG and the .45 ACP does have record of being effective in a LE/anti-personnel role--something that noticably lacking in the case of the 10mm.

 

[cookekdjr]

I've never been involved with a case where the perp or cop used a 10mm, but I have a hard time seeing it doing better than the .40 or .45.
The reason I say this is that, once you reach a certain level of power in a handgun, you reach a level of diminishing returns. A hit from a 180 gr slug going 1200 fps isn't going to do much more than one going 980 fps (well, this is my guess anyway). The one going 980 fps is going to shatter whatever bones it hits and basically wreak havoc on all the human tissues it contacts, and almost certainly will go staright through anybody it hits. That extra 200-300 fps doesn't really get you more. The guy won't be any deader.
Now, on bigger animals, it might make a difference. But on people? I'd rather have the lower velocity lower powered rounds so that I can fire more follow-up shots if needed.
Mind you, I've never seen a 10mm used on people (or the results of it), so maybe it has some kind of magic death-ray effect. But I've seen the results of enough .40 S&W shootings to verify that it is a world-class manstopper.
Have any of y'all seen the results of a 10mm in action against people? I'd be really interested to know how it has performed. No one in my jurisdictions has used it.
-David

 

[Black Snowman]

10mm could have an advantage in a wider range of situations, but not enough of a differance to go ga-ga over. That being said I've got my 2nd 10mm on order and plan and buying a few more before I'm thorugh. Still, the RAMI in 40 is going to see the bulk of CCW duties in '07.

 

[warriorsociologist]

jc2, for the good of this discussion (and to keep it from being locked like the last "10mm thread"), could you please tell us where you are getting your contrarian information? Several people who you are (and have been) disagreeing with have "showed their cards", myself included, with respect to the data on which they are basing their claims. So far, you seem to be disagreeing "merely to disagree." Please, just tell us what you are basing your opinions on here.

 

[jc2]

I don't really know what you're talking about. The FBI briefly adopted the 1076 (as the issue weapon) with a less than full-power load (the Federal 190-grain JHP) but quickly switched to what is commonly known as the "FBI-Lite" load. Shortly after adopting the 1076 as the issue weapon (and well before switching to the G22/23), the FBI adopted the P228 as the issue weapon. The 1076/10mm was the issue weapon/calibre for only a very brief period. It was very quickly replaced by the P228/9x19 as the issue weapon (which was replaced by the G22/.40 S&W in mid-1997). The FBI's flirtation with the 10mm was very brief indeed.

 

[JohnKSa]

The .40 S&W in particular, as well as the 9x19 (at least with current generation, premium JHPs), the 357 SIG and the .45 ACP does have record of being effective in a LE/anti-personnel role--something that noticably lacking in the case of the 10mm.

Again, that is correct, but not for the reason that is implied. The 10mm has no impressive record of LE/anti-personnel performance because it has never been particularly popular, not because of any inherent deficiency in the round.

Furthermore, if you're going to agree that the service pistol class calibers are for all practical purposes identical in performance AND then also try to imply in the next sentence that the performance of the 10mm is inferior, then I have to second warriorsociologist's comments about disgreement for its own sake.

Here's the best history of the FBI issue firearms I could find. It doesn't agree 100% with the other sources on the web, but it is far more comprehensive than anything else I found and it doesn't seem to be contradicted directly by anything that looks credible.

While the 1076 pistol was only issued for a period of less than 5 years (sources vary on the exact number with a range from 2 to 4 years), the FBI's "flirtation with the 10mm" round could not really be described as brief since it is still ongoing. The 10mm round is still standard issue to FBI SWAT and HRT teams in the H&K subgun.

http://www.sondereinheiten.de/forum/viewtopic.php?p=109755

Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)
Issued the 7.65×27mmR (.32 S&W) Colt Pocket Positive revolver in 1935-1949.
Issued the 9×33mmR (.357) S&W .357 Magnum revolver (4” barrel) in 1937-1970.
Issued the 9×29mmR (.38 Special) Colt Official Police revolver (4” barrel) in 1938-1984.
Issued the 9×23mmSR (.38 Super Auto) Colt Super Automatic pistol in 1938-1958.
Issued the 9×29mmR (.38 Special) S&W Model 10 Military & Police revolver (4” barrel) in 1950-1991.
Issued the 9×33mmR (.357) S&W Model 19 Combat Magnum revolver (4” barrel) in 1958-1991.
Issued the 9×29mmR (.38 Special) S&W Model 38 Bodyguard Airweight revolver (2” barrel) from 1972 until the 1990s (backup).
Issued the 9×29mmR (.38 Special) S&W Model 10-6 Military & Police revolver (2.5” barrel) in from 1974 until the 1990s (backup).
Issued the 9×29mmR (.38 Special) S&W Model 60 Chief’s Special revolver (2” barrel) from 1979 until the 1990s (backup).
Issued the 9×29mmR (.38 Special) S&W Model 13 Military & Police revolver (3” barrel) in from 1982 until the 1990s (backup).
Issued the 10×25mm S&W Model 1076 pistol from 1991-1992 (9,500 acquired).
Issued the 9×19mm SIG-Sauer P226 pistol in 1992-1998 (more than 10,000 acquired).
Optionally issued the 9×19mm SIG-Sauer P225 pistol and 9×19mm SIG-Sauer P228 pistol (agent’s choice) in 1992-1998.
Issues the 10×21mm (.40 S&W) Glock 22 pistol and 10×21mm (.40 S&W) Glock 23 pistol from 1998.
Issues the 10×21mm (.40 S&W) Glock 27 backup pistol.
Issued the 9×19mm H&K MP5SFA2 semiautomatic carbine and 9×19mm H&K MP5SFA3 semiautomatic carbine in 1989-1994.
Issued the 10×21mm (.40 S&W) H&K MP5/40SFA2 semiautomatic carbine in 1994-2003.
Issues the 5.56×45mm Rock River Arms LAR-15 DEA Rifle semiautomatic carbine from 2003 (with EoTech 552 reflex sight and Sure-Fire light).
Issues the 18.5×76mmR (12-gauge) Scattergun Tactical Response Model 90102 FBI pump-action shotgun (14” barrel) and 37×122mmR Federal Model 203-A Gas Gun grenade launcher.

Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)
Regional SWAT
Issued the 9×19mm S&W Model 459 pistol.
Issued the 9×19mm SIG-Sauer P226 pistol in 1988-1998 (1,500 acquired).
Issued the 9×19mm S&W Model 5946 pistol in 1988-1998 (1,000 acquired).
Issued the 7.62×51mm Remington Model 700 bolt-action sniper rifle (10× scope) and 7.62×51mm H&K G3A3 battle rifle.
Issues the 11.43×23mm (.45 ACP) Springfield Bureau Model pistol from 1998 (1,200+ acquired).
Issues the 10×25mm H&K MP5/10A2 submachine gun and 10×25mm H&K MP5/10A3 submachine gun from 1994 (1,400 acquired).
Issues the 5.56×45mm SIG SG551 SWAT assault carbine from 2003.
Issues the 9×19mm H&K MP5A2 submachine gun, 9×19mm H&K MP5A3 submachine gun, 9×19mm H&K MP5SD3 suppressed submachine gun, 5.56×45mm Colt CAR-15A2 R777 assault carbine, 5.56×45mm Colt AR-15A2 R603 (M16A1) assault rifle, 7.62×51mm FN SPR A5 bolt-action sniper rifle, 12.7×99mm McMillan Model 87 bolt-action sniper rifle, 18.5×76mmR (12-gauge) Scattergun Tactical Response Model 90102 FBI pump-action shotgun (14” barrel), and 37×122mmR Federal Model 203-A Gas Gun grenade launcher.

Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)
Hostage Rescue Team (HRT)
Issued the 9×19mm FN-Browning HP Mk 2 pistol in 1983-1995 (optionally the 9×19mm SIG-Sauer P226 pistol from 1986).
Issued the 11.43×23mm (.45 ACP) Les Baer SRP Bureau pistol in 1995-1998 (75 acquired).
Issues the 11.43×23mm (.45 ACP) Springfield TRP pistol from 1998.
Issues the 10×25mm H&K MP5/10A2 submachine gun and 10×25mm H&K MP5/10A3 submachine gun from 1994.
Issues the 9×19mm H&K MP5A2 submachine gun, 9×19mm H&K MP5A3 submachine gun, 9×19mm H&K MP5SD3 suppressed submachine gun, 9×19mm H&K MP5SD6 suppressed submachine gun, 5.56×45mm Colt CAR-15A2 R777 assault carbine, 5.56×45mm H&K HK33A3 assault rifle, 5.56×45mm Colt AR-15A2 R705 (M16A2) burst-fire rifle (3RB), 7.62×51mm H&K G3A3 battle rifle, 7.62×51mm H&K PSG1 sniper rifle (with 6× scope), 7.62×51mm Remington Model 700 bolt-action sniper rifle (M40A1 configuration with 10× scope), 12.7×99mm (.50 BMG) Barrett Model 82A1 sniper rifle, 12.7×99mm McMillan Model 87 bolt-action sniper rifle, 18.5×76mmR (12-gauge) Scattergun Tactical Response Model 90102 FBI pump-action shotgun (14” barrel), and 37×122mmR Federal Model 203-A Gas Gun grenade launcher.​

 

[warriorsociologist]

I don't really know what you're talking about.

What part?

 

[jc2]

Furthermore, if you're going to agree that the service pistol class calibers are for all practical purposes identical in performance AND then also try to imply in the next sentence that the performance of the 10mm is inferior,

I never implied or attempted to imply the "the performance of the 10mm is inferior." Those are strictly your words, John. What I said (and you not only quoted but agreed with) was:

there is nothing to indicate it offers any advantage in effectiveness over the .40 S&W in an anti-personnel role.

While the FBI does indeed maintain a H&K submachineguns in 10mm, this thread (and indeed, this forum) is about handguns. If you want to nitpick, the FBI had a very, very brief flirtation with the 10mm handgun.

The FBI begin to receive a few 1076s in 1990. By May 1991, they had all been sent back to S&W. In the interim, the FBI purchased ~7,000 SIGs in 9x19 (P226s and P228s--the bulk being P228s). Eventually (late 1992), about 2,500 (not the 9,500 of the initial contract) 1076s made it back into FBI hands, but by then the 10mm was DOA as a LE calibre. The FBI's use/involvement with the 10mm (and role in its demise as LE calibre) is generally greatly exagerrated on the internet.

 

[JohnKSa]

What you said and what I quoted in my response so you would be CLEAR on what I was referring to was this:

The .40 S&W ... does have record of being effective in a LE/anti-personnel role--something that noticably lacking in the case of the 10mm.

That easily qualifies as "attempting to imply the the performance of the 10mm is inferior."

The FBI begin to receive a few 1076s in 1990. By May 1991, they had all been sent back to S&W. In the interim, the FBI purchased ~7,000 SIGs in 9x19 (P226s and P228s--the bulk being P228s). Eventually (late 1992), about 2,500 1076s made it back into FBI hands, but by then the 10mm was DOA as a LE calibre. The FBI's use/involvement with the 10mm (and role in its demise as LE calibre) is generally greatly exagerrated on the internet.

What is this supposed to mean??? I posted a complete issue history for the FBI, the FBI HRT and FBI SWAT. What's the point of summarizing a tiny piece of it and then tacking on your opinion as if it is supported by a rehashed section of my post?

The FBI's adoption of the 10mm was a huge boost to the 10mm cartridge. Their subsequent drop of the 10mm was an equal change of fortunes but in the opposite direction. The veracity of both statements can be easily verified by looking at the number of 10mm handguns introduced and then subsequently dropped from catalogs during the time period, and also by the number of publications about the 10mm during the FBI's "flirtation with the 10mm handgun".