.357 Mag Double Action control schooling?

[show_me_2nd]

Recently completed my CCW training and now realize if I carry my bone stock 3" SP101, and need to use it, I may only have time for double action pulls. So today I took it out to the range with a box of .357 soft points and ran a silhouette out to 7 yds. 1st shot single action, hit the X. The next 30 or so double action at least hit the silhouette, but most were grouped about an inch low and 4 - 5 inches left. As a reality check the last 5 shots for the day were single action and all fell in the X ring.
I haven't had this revolver out in over a year, so I didn't feel too bad, but, does anyone have suggestions for better double action control other than just practice, practice, practice? Looking for any suggestions, new grips, trigger / spring job, etc. I've put about 200 rds total through it, maybe it will get better with more use?
Thanks

 

[David E]

Recently completed my CCW training and now realize if I carry my bone stock 3" SP101, and need to use it, I WILL only have time for double action pulls.

Fixed it for you.

So today I took it out to the range with a box of .357 soft points and ran a silhouette out to 7 yds. 1st shot single action, hit the X. The next 30 or so double action at least hit the silhouette, but most were grouped about an inch low and 4 - 5 inches left. As a reality check the last 5 shots for the day were single action and all fell in the X ring.

You're flinching. Load the cylinder with some empty cases mixed in with live ammo, spin the cylinder and close it without looking. Or have a friend do it and watch the front sight.

I haven't had this revolver out in over a year, so I didn't feel too bad, but, does anyone have suggestions for better double action control other than just practice, practice, practice? Looking for any suggestions, new grips, trigger / spring job, etc. I've put about 200 rds total through it, maybe it will get better with more use?

Thanks

You need to shoot it more, of course, but dry fire will help quite a bit.

Make sure the trigger is centered on the first finger joint.

Hold the gun tighter with the support hand than you do with the gun hand.

Use .38's until you get better.

 

[PabloJ]

I would use .38s in that gun. It seems kinda small for average person to shoot .357 loads through it. The GP100 is there for regular folks to shoot .357 loads. It is large and heavy revolver well designed to soak up recoil of this cartridge.

 

[MrBorland]

does anyone have suggestions for better double action control other than just practice, practice, practice? Looking for any suggestions, new grips, trigger / spring job, etc.

Other than practice? 'fraid not. It's a software, not a hardware problem.

Get some .38s to practice with at the range, and lots of dry fire, concentrating on a smooth DA pull while watching the front sight. The standard coin-on-the-barrel drill is a decent drill for remedial DA work. If you're still flinching at the range, get rid of the target altogether and shoot into the berm/backstop, focusing on a smooth DA pull again while watching the front sight.

 

[IlikeSA]

Dry firing will help you improve your DA ability. Find an online metronome (http://www.metronomeonline.com/) and practice pulling the trigger to whatever pace you set. Think smooth pull, no setting the trigger.

After a bit of this, aim at a target and continue dry firing at the pace you've chosen, trying your best not to move the front sight. Make it a daily routine.

When you go shooting again, you'll be amazed how well you can shoot.

 

[DPris]

Sounds like you're "pushing off", unconsciously pushing against recoil at the last minute.

Among the above advice, work on bringing the trigger smoothly back to its let-off point.

And forget about using the gun single-action unless you need a precision shot beyond 25 yards or so.

Up close, DA all the way.
Denis

 

[murf]

watch the jerry miculek videos on youtube.

murf

 

[TreeDoc]

I'm in the dry fire camp. Double action pulls and don't try to stage the trigger. Springs can help some, but I have found if you do enough practice, stock springs and action will smooth out a bit. The sp is a fine revolver and can be quite a handful with 357 loads. Probably go with some 38's until your confidence is a little higher.

 

[Schwing]

You're flinching. Load the cylinder with some empty cases mixed in with live ammo, spin the cylinder and close it without looking. Or have a friend do it and watch the front sight.

This is great advice. I developed quite a flinch when I picked up my first .44 mag. I put one or 2 live rounds into the chamber, give it a good spin, and close it without looking and then pay close attention to the muzzle on the clicks that don't go bang. It will only take you a little while to see the finch. Then you just need to concentrate on pulling that trigger finger without anticipating or flinching... easier said than done but I know many shooters struggle with this from time to time, even after years of practice.

 

[LT.Diver]

Shoot more.
Short answer, I know, but that's all there is to it. Practice and then practice more.

 

[madwell]

When I was honing my double action skills I dry fired with a crimson trace laser. The laser gives you visual feed back on what your point of impact is doing during the trigger stroke. There are cheaper methods like balancing a coin on the end of the barrel, but the laser works great. The bonus for me was as my double action revolver skills improved I found I shot all of my other handguns better as well. Hope this helps and good luck improving your skills.

 

[Onward Allusion]

You're flinching. Practice practice practice then more practice. Once you master the double action trigger of a revolver, single action will be cake. BTW, good choice on carry gun.

As for dry firing - some snap caps and put a penny (or quarter for a better challenge) on the top strap as you dry fire.

^^^^^argh looks like I'm a few minutes late!

 

[BCRider]

.....So today I took it out to the range with a box of .357 soft points and ran a silhouette out to 7 yds. 1st shot single action, hit the X. The next 30 or so double action.....

Read around for some information on self defense use of your gun. The one thing that keeps coming up is to NOT cock the hammer. It's simply much too easy to take the shot from a slight nervous impulse or even just lack of control due to adrenaline. The vast majority of opinion in threads on this sort of topic is that you'll be hung, drawn and quartered by the law if the bullet leaves the gun due to cocking the hammer and using single action.

So, now back to the fun stuff. You simply need more practice. And since you hit the X with the single action shot I'm not convinced that you're flinching. Instead I suspect you're simply using poor trigger finger control.

One option is that you're snatching at the trigger. If so that upsets the gun and poor groupings similar to a flinch can often result. But poor groupings will be a certainty.

Another is that you're doing what is known as staging the trigger. This is where you pull back to where you suspect it'll shoot then hold it and treat it like an SA trigger pull. But from what I've seen this often results in that last little bit of travel being a nervous snatch at the trigger. And again we have a group that looks more like a shotgun pattern.

The key is to use your trigger finger to build pressure on the trigger. Just build pressure and let it move when and how it wants. When it moves just follow it and keep up the smooth and EVEN buildup until the trigger is at the rear travel limit. Somewhere along the way the hammer fell and the gun went off. But you should just ignore that. For you it's all about the sight picture and the smooth, fluid like build of pressure until you feel it stop firmly. Then ease off with the same sort of smooth release. This last isn't needed but it's good practice.

I've done this so much that I can typically shoot as well or sometimes even a little better in DA mode than SA mode. And at some of the Speed Steel and IDPA matches where I shoot my revolvers I've been accused of radar guided bullets or being boring for getting almost all down 0's. So it CAN be done.

A small gun with magnums can be hard on the hands. And that alone could be causing you to work up a flinch even if you didn't have one before. Perhaps switch to .38Spl for now to work out the bugs. THEN go for some magnums.

 

[wheelyfun66]

Bob the hammer!!

 

[RainDodger]

All of the above and in addition, there's a tip that I received when getting some professional training from Uncle Sam for the agency that employed me at one time.

I had never done much double action shooting prior to that training, and the instructor had me wrap my hand a little further into the gun, with my finger deeper into the trigger guard than I had been used to when shooting single action. It made a world of difference for me. As mentioned above, when shooting double action, I have the trigger sitting pretty close on the first joint of the finger... the one closest to the knuckle. You might give that a try for grins.

Since that time (about 25 years ago), I only shoot my revolvers double action. You can get quite good at it with lots of dry fire practice.

 

[Coyote3855]

Last weekend I saw my instructor balance a dime on the frame of S&W Model 10. He dry fired 6 times. The dime stayed on the frame. Try this in your dry fire practice.

 

[bikerdoc]

See if this chart helps,

https://www.google.com/search?q=han...-pistols%2F8486-glock-34-gen-4-a.html;682;683

 

[ATLDave]

bikerdoc, unless I misunderstand, that chart was developed for bullseye - one-handed - shooting. I'm not sure it's super applicable to modern two-handed techniques.

 

[ATLDave]

OP, you've got one of two things going on. Either your trigger pull itself is pushing the gun off target, or you're doing it in anticipation of recoil. Two easy ways to tell which of those things it is:

1. Dry-fire test. If you can dry-fire and keep the sights steady and aligned, it's not trigger pull, which means it must be flinching/anticipation. If you cannot keep the sights steady, then it's the trigger pull itself.

2. Live-fire test. Fire some .357mag rounds. Note the pattern. Fire some (2-3 cylinders) of .38 wadcutter rounds. Disregard the first few shots so as to give your mind time to learn that the .38WC rounds have trivial recoil. Does the pattern improve? Move back onto target and/or tighten considerably? Go back to .357. Does the pattern get worse again? If the pattern doesn't vary with recoil, then it's trigger pull. If it's only bad with high-recoil rounds, then it's a flinch/anticipation.

Extensive dry-fire will fix the trigger issues. The flinch requires a different approach (dry-fire is good, but will never fix a true flinch).

 

[brbdwyr]

....... does anyone have suggestions for better double action control other than just practice, practice, practice?
Thanks

No. There is no better advice.

 

[show_me_2nd]

Many thanks for all the suggestions! I guess my wife will just to used to hearing click click click. .38 spls are also sounding good as I'm looking at the red welts on my right hand. (But those may have come from the 50 rds of .40 s&w I put through a rental Glock 22 yesterday) the nubbies on the grip are sorta harsh.

 

[hemiram]

Used to be "Cheese Grater" grips were always on S&W revolvers. I never liked sharp checkering, but I would probably sell something that chewed up my hands and get something with grooving instead.

As far as .357 DA control thing goes, it's hard to say what's best for you. When I was a decent shooter, I dry fired to the point my GF and mom would both yell, "Enough!". I got used to shooting wadcutters, then .38special, then +P, and finally full power .357 loads. I was able to shoot a 4" or so group one handed dead center on a torso target at 20 feet by the time I moved away from the right down the street LGS/Range, and I could do it with both hands. Now, I'm lucky to be putting them on the target at all, and with two bad shoulders, I pay a big price the next day if I try. 9mm and .45ACP is more my liking these days.

 

[BCRider]

Just want to bring up the idea that while practice is always good practicing the wrong technique isn't good.

You want to make sure you've got a good solid grounding before you begin your 100K dry firing sideline career.

Last weekend I saw my instructor balance a dime on the frame of S&W Model 10. He dry fired 6 times. The dime stayed on the frame. Try this in your dry fire practice.

Getting a dime to balance on anything is a neat trick. Instead of that perhaps balance a spent .38 or .357 on the flat top of the sight blade. Or if your sight blade doesn't allow for that then balance the casing on the top rib behind the sight with the head up. Now dry fire a bunch of times. Doing this with the case head upwards makes it less stable. So it's a better skill test for you. When you get it right the clicks of the hammer fall should make the casing slowly walk straight back along the rib until it's stopped by the step up to the top strap. When you can do that without tipping it over the side or walking it off the rib you're good to go.

 

[tomrkba]

1) Watch various revolver videos, as previously mentioned.
2) Read Grant Cunningham's The Gun Digest Book of the Revolver.
3) Buy a revolver chambered in 22 Long Rifle. This will give you the basics of managing the double action trigger. Ruger offers an SP101 in 22 LR at this time. Shooting a 22 does not teach you how to manage recoil, follow through, and trigger reset for the next shot. These skills are essential for rapid fire with a revolver chambered in a center fire cartridge. I know this from experience. The last revolver class I attended corrected my problem (slapping the trigger after reset) and my rapid fire group size shrank by 50% or more.

There is no substitute for training under the watchful eye of a revolver instructor. Instructors with mostly semi-auto experience are generally not sufficient; they likely do not know all the little tricks that are slowly disappearing from the general body of knowledge. Find someone such as Mas Ayoob or Grant Cunningham. They will be able to fully analyze your technique and correct you as required.

 

[woodwrkr]

I qualified for my enhanced CCW using a 686+ with magnum hand loads, everything inside the 8 ring, and I'm like BCRider. I begin the DA trigger pull relatively slowly and build the pressure, or increase the speed of the trigger pull as I pull the trigger through smoothly and I don't "stage" the trigger pull at the final take up stage, I begin slowly and pull through smoothly and rapidly at the end of the trigger pull. This helps to keep from throwing the sights out of alignment either at the beginning of the trigger pull or during the final take up stage.

Concentrate on the front sight!!!

And also, keep your eyes open all the way through the shot firing. You should be able to see the sights stay in alignment through the entire trigger pull and see the front sight go up during recoil and come back down into alignment with the target.