.357 Magnum? So much for 1 shot stops........

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The Dogs Of Capitalism

>I hate Pit Bulls... nasty breed of Dog.

I think the cute dog with the kids in The Little Rascals was a pit bull. It's mostly how they're raised; a lot of pit bull owners just tie them up in the back yard. Pit Bulls do have a powerful bite, but so do Malamutes... and Malamutes are sneaky. There's one stealing my dinner as I sit here typing.

There's a great book on the origins of many dog breeds, including the Pit Bull, called The Dogs Of Capitalism. It explains what bear-baiting was for (to test dogs' dispostions; dogs that snapped at the handler while the bear was tossing them around were disqualified from breeding) and a lot of other lore mostly forgotten now that dogs are just pets.

A lot of dogs will quit fighting if you douse them with water. Of course it's hard to carry a fire hose around all the time, so capsaicin is probably more practical.
 
My niece has a pit who is nothing but a big headed strong luvable lab dog. It's all in how they are raised.
The Pit bull is nothing more than the Americanized version of the English Bull Terrier. The Pits full name is the American Pit Bull Terrier.
And yes, Pete was a Pit on the Little Rascals.
 
Telomerase,
I once had a Malamute also. Bueatiful dog, strong, faithful, but full of mischief. Today I have another handful to deal with. Get a Chow. She's turning out to be a Malamute with a attitude. A really good dog, but they sometimes have short fuses.
 
George,

Pits have suffered a fate of many dogs that became popular, those who bred them, never culled dogs and didn't even attempt to follow the standard. Pits are supposed to be animal aggresive and well bred ones always are. Other dogs, cattle, goats, sheep, bears, and we use em on hogs all the time here. Now I don't like dogfights, never even been to one and never will, but it is what pits where bred for the fighting ring. If you and I where to match dogs in a ring, you would give me your dog to bath and I would give you mine, the reason being to make sure we didn't dust our dogs with poison to harm the others dogs and give one an edge in the fight. So the dogs must not be people aggresive. At the bull baitings and bear baitings dogs where flung into the air, the crowd would break their fall by catching them. What has become the standard thing for many inner city gangs is to fight dogs, but what happens when the registered pit you bought has no game? They found that high levels of nitrogen would cause the dogs to become aggresive and fight, with anything. Some mix that 21-0-0 fertilizer with feed and soak it in water, some use gunpowder mixed with feed. But what they do is poison the dog to the point it has no sense of what to do, it will and does attack anything. Hence many of these burned out dogs are found guarding dope and not cared for, not cared for, because their owners can't even feed them without being bitten.

You could take about any dog and do the same thing and come out with a critter acts more like a crippled grizzly than a kids pet.

As to toughness, i've watched as a 50lb pits latched onto a 300lb boar hogs by the ear and managed to hold that beast until hunters arrived to dispatch the hog. I've seen those same dogs take a cut through a kevlar vest(used to protect em from the tusks) and never even flinch at the cut or the smack from the hog. I once put a couple hundred staples into a pit that got thrased by a hog and didn't have any local anesthetic to use, so we did it without. She simply laid there and licked my hand as I worked on her. When we finished and she got up, she tried to re-join the other dogs to go hunt some more. They have more guts than a pile of rotts, shepards, and Dobies, if I had to depend on a dog to fight to the last ounce of blood for me, its gonna be a pit or a variant of same.

Now a well bred pit will go to the mat and do its best to kill under one circumstance, it feels that its owner is being threatened. My daughter would have a full blooded pit of proper breeding if I hadn't been given her 1/2 American 1/4 pit 1/4 cur for nothing.


Simple solution to break up a pit on another dog, find a slat of wood a couple inches wide maybe a foot long or so. Grasp the pit by the collar with your weak hand, feed the slat into the mouth near the back, their will be a gap between the teeth, slide it all the way back as far as you can, rotate the slat so that it puts pressure on both jaws. The dog will let go if done right, smart pit owners carry a break-stick in their pocket at all times. You can drag the dog off by the collar until you can cage him, shoot him, or do whatever needs to be done, the dog will be concentrated on the other dog.

We had a Dogo Argentino once which looks like a pit on steroids named Flash, a break stick wouldn't work when he had a hog, we'd just cut the ear off and he'd chew on it till we got home.:D Or found another hog...

Everyone here talks about the way the media trashes gun ownership all the time, don't you stop for a second to think that with no morals about that they might trash something else? I know often when a pit attack is talked about on the news here, a look at the dogs shows em to be mutts. Our latest attacks where pits, but they where rescue dogs that had aggresion problems(nitrogen poisoning) and a security guy investigating an alarm let them out of the back yard and into the streets.

Course I am totally unbiased about these dogs since I think they are about the toughest critter this side of a Grizzly and more loving and dedicated than any poodle or lab thought about being.

The brutal beast eating a little girl...:rolleyes:



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There are no more bad pit bulls than any other breed. Only bad owners. :(

The dogs simply reflect how they are treated. The best dog I ever had was a 50 Lb pit bull. :)

He was more gentle than several cocker spanials (3 total) I had had when I was growing up and when my oldest son was a child. We got our pit bull as a pup when my youngest son was about 6 years old. We had that pit bull for 18 years. My youngest boy grew up wrestling with that dog and that dog was gentle. Never hurt my son or anyone else.

They are tough and have a high threshhold for pain. They have the equipment and can be mean if mistreated; but, so can any other breed. They are not "high strung" like some other breeds and are thus generally more predictable than some.

Did you know that the dog in the old "Our Gang!" commedy movie series was a Pit Bull?

The breed has had bad press and a bad rap which is generally undeserved! :banghead:

No offense; but, IMHO, those who would condem the bred merely show their ignorance of it. :D
 
There's a rather famous case of a LEO (I believe his last name was Coates) who ended up putting 4 rounds of a .357 magnum into the gut of an extremely overwheight male. The Goblin returned fire and killed Coates with a .32 that penetrated his armpit beneath his vest. The Goblin survived.
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Real close.

(And I'm doing this from memory, so I might not be all correct either)

Tpr. Mark Coates was shot once with a .22 LR from a derringer handgun. The round struck the trauma plate of his vest and did pretty much what we would expect- that being, nothing.

Coates then drew his .357 Magnum revolver and shot the perp six times, with 5 shots being center mass. IIRC, 4 of the bullets passed within millimeters of vital structures (heart, aorta, lungs). The perp fell to the ground.

Coates then did what he was trained to do, which was radio for backup. He did not seek cover or reload first, which was a fatal error. As he lifted his left hand to key his lapel mic, the perp fired the second shot from the derringer, which struck Coates' arm, ricocheted off bone, and travelled through his shoulder (through the arm hole of his vest) into his chest where it punctured his aorta.

He then bled internally and died, screaming for help, on his cruiser video.

It is the most horrific training film I have ever seen.

And yes, the ****bag who shot him lived.

Side note: a CCW holder stopped to assist the fallen Trooper and was not shot by the backup officers who arrived minutes later. This is saying something, seeing as how they had heard Coates screaming horribly for help, and rolled up to see him laying on the ground and some trucker standing over him with a handgun (who also didn't quite comply right away with commands to drop the gun and assume a prone position). Sure, he was a Good Guy...but wow. They sure didn't know that at the time. Pucker factor!

Mike
 
Handgun rounds may be relatively weak in the firearm world, but a surefire way to drastically incease stopping power is a contact shot, if at all possible. In this case, it sounds like it was. The explosive gases will turn much of the inside of any animal into mush instantaneously.
 
The explosive gases will turn much of the inside of any animal into mush instantaneously.
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:confused:

The burning gases would do no more than a butane lighter, burn the flesh. Since it is a flash and not a sustained flame the burn wouldn't be that serious.
 
I saw a "fighting" pit get shot

in new york city, a huge pit named brutus escaped it's moronic
gangbanger owner and siezed a yuppies little doggie by the neck
people were stomping the pit with steel toe boots,the yuppie had a
broken parking meter and was walloping the pit
but the pit would not let go.the cops showed up and shot it
more then ten times and the pit died,never letting go of the little
dog which died from getting it's neck chew'd.
at the time the cops had just switched to 9mm .
makes me think slugs or 45/70 guide gun would be the way to go
 
i was hoping someone would bring up "break" or "bite" sticks

ive heard of them but am not real familiar

i just recently attended a seminar on dog and cock fighting where bite sticks were brought up but not explained too thoroughly

i was the only non-leo out of 30 or so, mostly animal control but some regular officers too. i managed to hold my own,,, :D

and also, i recently saw a thing where a woman had killed herself by holding a rifle to her abdomen and pulling the trigger

the gases were injected into her abdominal cavity so forcefully that her blue jeans split apart in numerous places from the expansion of her abdomen, uh,,,denim is pretty strong stuff so the forces involved had to be fairly substantial

still, any kind of accurate shot on a dog in a fight situation has to be tough to pull

one other thing, i remember a neglected basenji, similar in size to a chiuaua,

meanest nastiest dog you'd ever meet, not because of the breed but because of the owner

m

on a lighter note,

we used to have a dobie named natasha who was just tall enough to rest her head on the table, she was also very good at stealing your dinner when you weren't looking.

we called her our 4 legged table shark...

:D
 
Majic:
The burning gases would do no more than a butane lighter, burn the flesh. Since it is a flash and not a sustained flame the burn wouldn't be that serious.
Click to expand...
Its not the flame that does the damage, its the rapidly expanding gases. Thats also why near-contact gunshots result in powder tattooing, the pressure forces carbon into the skin, which the body attacks and then the carbon appears blue (assuming the victim survives).

Kharn
 
Another pit story, with a happy ending thankfully.

I hear a lady screeming outside. I run outside in pants only. The pitbull next door has latched onto her poodle by the ear and top of the head in my driveway.

Guns in the house, oh well. I take my belt off and get it around the pits neck. Choked that dog out best I could.

Cops arrive, they are going to shoot it. I tell them I am not letting go for fear the dog will turn on me. While choking it out, the pits eyes are on me, not the poodle. I was pumped to the max with adrenaline and feared I had made a bad move.

The pit was not succumbing to being choked out after 5 minutes. Wasn't even phased by it, but it certainly let me know with it's eyes he wanted me next. Least that how I was reading it.

Cops wanted me to let go. That didn't happen. I choked harder, losing strength rapidly. Finally the pit got weak and eventually in a few more minutes went limp, still holding onto the poodle.

Cop took his collapsable baton, used it as a break stick and the dog jaws finally let loose of the poodle. I let go of the belt and moved away quickly.

Animal control had arrived and took the pit with them. I was covered in blood up to my elbows from the poodles injuries and never noticed till one of the officers mentioned it.

The poodle recovered, the pit was back home in it's yard the next day. Apparently it needed vet care from the choking but non the worse for wear otherwise.

The pit was probably 60 pounds. I was a little surprised it didn't go down before it did from the choking it was getting. I just could not cut off enough oxygen to get it to fall over in any reasonable timeframe. It did happen [ that the pit fell over ] but I think back now, it must have been 10 minutes I was choking that dog with the cops standing by.

One tough dog, I'm no hercules but I'm no 90 pounder either. My arms and shoulders were sore for days from the workouit and adrenaline dump due to fear for my own safety after that dog started watching me. We were real close to one another for too long.

I would not attempt to do that again with a belt. I may just mind my own business. If it ever happens to my dog, I'll dispatch the aggressor dog with my knife probably.

Brownie
 
.280,

I don't have one at the house right now, its in my dog supply box over where I hunt, or i'd take a pic of it. But if you buy a commercial one it is normally made of some type of hard plastic, I have one made of 1/2 plexiglass. It is about 10" long, the handle roughly 3" wide and 4" long. The part you slide into the dogs mouth is roughly 3.5" wide and in the front tapers down and sorta makes a rounded point to help it slip though the mouth. You can do it with contact on only one side, but it works better if it contacts both sides.

Some dogs will release without the stick by a pull on the collar and a being told to let go, but it is not how they are supposed to operate. The guys that fight these dogs and breed them for that, call it "Dead Game", which means that the dog will stay latched until he is dead. Some folks try to tell you the pit has a latching jaw, it is pure bs, but it does have some of the most muscular jaw structure of any dog.

If you need a break stick and can't find one, look up "Hog Dog Supplies" on search engine, most sights have them, some don't advertise them because police have been known to harrass them for dealing in dogfighting equipment.:fire: The way some areas LEO's treat pit owners and gun owners is pretty close to the same. You carry the stick because you know what can happen, and it is the easiest way to get the dog released.

Another pic of Maggie and Bandit
 

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Did you know that the dog in the old "Our Gang!" commedy movie series was a Pit Bull?
Click to expand...

I thought "Petie" was a American Staffordshire Bull Terrier? Aren't AmStaf's slightly larger then Pit Bulls?

Did some checking on "Pete". He was a American Staffordshire Terrier.
 
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I thought "Petie" was a American Staffordshire Bull Terrier? Aren't AmStaf's slightly larger then Pit Bulls?
Click to expand...

I have a self loading rifle here at home, to Feinstein it is an Assualt rifle.


Course I often thought the same thing, until I asked a lady at a dog show a couple weeks ago. She had what I would say without hesitation was a pitbull, and then some dogs that where larger. When I asked her what they where she said, APBT or American Pit Bull Terriers. I said then what is a Staffordshire and she pointed to one of the larger dogs, I got real confused. She claims that what happened is that people began to breed for size with pits, they are small dogs 40-50lbs. They wanted more size for a more menacing appereance, so they selectively bred larger boned and bodied dogs. As the pit began to get a bad rap because of its fighting heritage, they began to call the larger dogs Staffordshires.

Now I know pit dogs are bred on purpose to have shorter legs to help avoid a break in the ring. Most stafforshires are more long legged like the pic of Bandit above. My thoughts had always been they crossed an American Bulldog with a Pitbull to get the Stafford, but this lady claimed not. So a Stafford would simply be a pitbull that was selectively bred from dogs that had undesirable characteristics for the fighting ring.

I don't think it is possible to get the truth about the breeding of any breed. I own a registered catahoula right now that about 30yrs ago the owners bred some pitbull into the line, so this dog and a those out of this line, contain 1/8 pitbull. Another guys catahoulas contain 1/8 black and tan hound. Guys don't advertise this, but it happens in most breeds, sometimes it is simpler to step outside a specific breed to harness a trait you want and then move back towards something that looks like what you started with. Many German Shorthair breeder in order to make dogs win more field trials bred their dogs to English pointers to get more range out of the dogs. So for all we know Staffords, Pits, and Americans may all be almost genetically identical, just bred to different size standards.

My understanding from many pitbull web sites is that Pete from little rascals was indeed a pitbull. But if the lady from the dog show was correct, then he would also be a staffordshire, because they are one and the same.
 
I thought "Petie" was a American Staffordshire Bull Terrier? Aren't AmStaf's slightly larger then Pit Bulls?
Click to expand...

Bull Terrier = Pit Bull Terrier = Pit Bull = American Staffordshire Bull Terrier

As I said before - All the same breed :D

I have a book around here somewhere on that breed.

There are 2 kennel clubs that register the breed. One is the American Kennel Club and I forget the other.

One calls them the American Staffordshire Bull Terrier and the other calls them a Pit Bull Terrier, if my memory serves; but, they are the same breed. The breed was started as a cross between the Bull Dog and the English Terrier. The latter is extinct.

The dog that I had was registered as an American Staffordshire Bull Terrier. He was a purple ribbon dog. He was 50 pounds of solid musscle. My brother owned the bitch and had her bred with a champion. There were eight pups in the litter. Mine was the runt. The others grew to 80 and 90 pounds.

The book I have said that they usually run 35-50 pounds but some have been bred larger and it seems that the larger dogs have become pretty common.
 
Kilt a deer once with my Mod. 96 Beretta. Federal .40 cal hollow points.
About 20 paces. The Hydro Shock passed completely through Bambi.
Deer walked about 150 yards, laid down. Then got up and walked another 100 yards and laid down and bled out. Deer will sometimes go along ways when hit very hard. What suprised me was that the Hydro Shock went straight through the critter. I would have thought that it would not have done that even tho it didn't hit any bone. Bullet passed through between the ribs going in and out.
Grampster
 
A GA Trooper, Coats (?), placed five well grouped shots from his .357 magnum into a mans chest, only to be killed by a .22LR which made its way into the right spot to cause him to bleed out in minutes. Both died, iirc. Both took minutes.

Just goes to show that it is where they end up, not necessarily how big or fast they are.

(RIP Trooper.)
 
some things i learned at the seminar,,,

first off,,,thanx for the info on the bite stick, greatly appreciated

#1 example, true story:

local ACO picked up 19 fighting cocks in a raid.

the only place to keep them is at a private kennel at an exorbinant price that will kill the animal control officers budget in about 2 weeks or so

can't place them on a farm cause theyll kill the other chickens

can't euthanize because they are evidence

can you feel the tension??

we'll call that one "caught between a cock and a hard place"

#2 - pitbulls impounded for fighting cannot be placed, they must be euthanized

so to teach a pit bull (or any other dog for that matter) to be vicious or fight is an automatic death sentence for them

#3 - at least in hartford, ct. when a dog loses a fight the owner will take it to one of the parks and hang it from a tree by its leash and let it strangle to death for the kids to find and the police or ACO to cut down and dispose of.

someone here mentioned it takes a while for a pitbull to strangle

#4 on a much, much lighter note

a fair portion of the ACO's in my area are quite good looking and intelligent late twenties and early thirties in age female type officers

and i noticed more than two unadorned left ring fingers...

we had to sit in "the circle of love" all facing each other so i spent the day surrounded by beautiful women in uniform, forced to talk to them all,,,

sigh,,,

its so tough with having the new girlfriend and all,,,i was too used to being single...

:evil:

unfortunately they decided "civlians" would not need to attend further meetings due to search and seizure legalities

:(

but i did come away more informed on the subject

i was truly shocked when i heard the hanging story.

i might accidently shoot someone i caught doing that

accidently, accidently, fingers slip...

or "i went temporarily insane with rage your honor"

and it would be the truth

oh, one more (snicker) the local cops call the staties "the high hats" in reference to the smokey the bear hats and possibly other less obvious reasons

I LMAO when i heard that one,,,

:D
 
I also know of a case where a .357 sig bullet, fired at point blank with a hp, simply got lost in the gut of a fat guy. It hit, then went off at an angle and travelled through the fat layers until exiting at his side. A few stitches, some antibiotics and he was fine.
Click to expand...

Finally an excuse. "It's not fat. It's body armor." :D

And I have to chime in that with Pit Bull's their behavior is a combination of factors. In most cases they're just fine if they're treated decently and not deliberately made mean (which an unfortunate # of people do). My neighbor has 2 PB's and they're the sweetest natured things you ever met. My dog is a Lab-Dalmation-Pit Bull mix and he's even nicer. "Bob The Big Dumb Dog" is his name.

The other factor is people who breed without care. Some of them are so inbred they're born insane, just like some people. (hey, I'm from the South, I know about these things :neener: )
 
Good Line

I have never Laughed so hard Browns Fan. I love your 3 S Rule. I don't think I would practice that for just any situation but there are some that would warrant that.
 
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