358 Winchester 444 marlin or 45/70?

[CraigC]

The .358 would be far easier to hit with at 250yds than the other two. IMHO, the .444 is a better platform for deer-appropriate bullets, while the .45/70 really shines with +400gr slugs.

Personally, none of the above. But if forced to choose between the 3 I'd take the 358. For most of it's life 444 was twisted so that it would only handle 240 gr bullets designed for 44 mag handguns. It shot them faster than the bullets were designed for and performance on game larger than deer was poor. When Marlin re-introduced the 45-70 they planned to stop production of the 444 and they did for a while. But they did eventually bring them back with a different twist when companies started making 260-300 gr 44 caliber bullets. I still can't think of a reason to choose one over a 45-70 which would be my 2nd choice between the 3.

In fact, the .444 was designed for the 265gr bullets, that were intended only for that cartridge. The .44Mag had the same twist and worked fine with bullets up to 300gr, at a few hundred feet per second less. The .444 will obviously do better with the same bullets. There are plenty of bullets that do well at .444 velocities and were available long before they went to the proper 1-20" twist. Bullets 300gr and heavier were on the market LONG before the faster twist in the .444.

What the faster twist gains you is the ability to use bullets over 300gr. Even with a stock action, it will sling a 405gr faster than the .45-70 will push one of equal sectional density.

 

[Csinn]

45-70 is kind of obsolete unless you load for it. Are you going to use factory ammo that's safe for use in pre-1900s guns or load your own "lever gun ammo" loaded to around 50% more pressure than the trap-door safe stuff?

I will hopefully reload. Do the Henry or Rossi handle “magnum” loads?

 

[DM~]

Anyone who feels the need to ask this question about the 3 above choices, absolutely needs to pick the 358.

It's easily the best choice for the stated intended purpose, for someone that hasn't used all three cartridges.

DM

 

[N555]

I will hopefully reload. Do the Henry or Rossi handle “magnum” loads?

There seems to be 3 power levels of 45-70.
1, Original trap door safe loads, loaded to around 45acp pressure or less.
2, Modern lever gun ammo loaded to significantly higher pressure, 9mm to 30-30 level pressure.
3, last 45-70 insane for Ruger No1 and other comparable, modern,very strong action guns. Loaded up to 50,000psi, more than double the original 1885 pressure. It tosses lead at near 458winmag levels of intensity. Not for use in lever guns and will turn a trap door gun into a pipebomb.

 

[troy fairweather]

There seems to be 3 power levels of 45-70.
1, Original trap door safe loads, loaded to around 45acp pressure or less.
2, Modern lever gun ammo loaded to significantly higher pressure, 9mm to 30-30 level pressure.
3, last 45-70 insane for Ruger No1 and other comparable, modern,very strong action guns. Loaded up to 50,000psi, more than double the original 1885 pressure. It tosses lead at near 458winmag levels of intensity. Not for use in lever guns and will turn a trap door gun into a pipebomb.

There a 4th but there not much fun and you won't find any load data.

 

[WVRJ]

Others with more experience with the rounds in question will chime in, but off the cuff, the BLR is going to be the best actual hunting gun of those three IMO if 250 yard shots are a real possibility. The .444 is interesting but bullet selection is limited and the round starts to drop pretty fast past 200, while the .45-70 is the most versatile and can probably run with the .358 out to 250 yards with some of the hotter loads with lighter bullets. The BLR is going to be easiest to scope, which I'd want to do if considering shots over 100 yards.

 

[WVRJ]

One thing to keep in mind is the number of states that are going to straight wall cartridges for hunting. That would probably make me lean towards the 45-70.

 

[Csinn]

One thing to keep in mind is the number of states that are going to straight wall cartridges for hunting. That would probably make me lean towards the 45-70.

One thing to keep in mind is the number of states that are going to straight wall cartridges for hunting. That would probably make me lean towards the 45-70.

Yea true. I don’t think Oregon is yet, too busy trying to make it hard to get any gun

 

[DM~]

One thing to keep in mind is the number of states that are going to straight wall cartridges for hunting. That would probably make me lean towards the 45-70.

Why, the 45-70 isn't legal either...

DM

 

[3Crows]

Why, the 45-70 isn't legal either...

DM

Depends on the straight wall regulation, some require a maximum 1.8 inches case length, some just require a straight wall.

The Triple 4, if released by Ruger will be a great rifle as it will have the correct twist in a hammer forged barrel. But until they do or even if they do, the .45-70 is always the good choice . If routinely taking shot at 250 yards or more then some other cartridge and platform might be a better choice.

 

[3Crows]

45-70 is kind of obsolete unless you load for it. Are you going to use factory ammo that's safe for use in pre-1900s guns or load your own "lever gun ammo" loaded to around 50% more pressure than the trap-door safe stuff?

Yes and no. The Hornady LR 325FTX, Federal Hammer Down and Fusion, Remington 405 JSP (labeled Not Safe For Trapdoor) are pressured beyond Trapdoor safe levels in the opinion of many, the Federal says for lever guns. HMS Bear is commonly available off the shelf and it is pretty strong stuff. The Hornady and possibly the Fusion and Hammer Down could make those 250 yards shots.

 

[CraigC]

45-70 is kind of obsolete unless you load for it. Are you going to use factory ammo that's safe for use in pre-1900s guns or load your own "lever gun ammo" loaded to around 50% more pressure than the trap-door safe stuff?

Yep, it's so obsolete that given Marlin's rather extensive catalog, the 1895 was the first model Ruger brought back to production.

 

[Rodfac]

Which one would be the best for 200-250yrd large game shooting? I’m looking at a BLR 358

I'd opt for the .358 for it's better trajectory, ammunition availability (easily formed from .308 brass) and the muzzle velocity that makes its better trajectory possible.

My #2 son has a Savage 99 in .358 that sports a 22" bbl. Known as the "brush gun" by Sav 99 fans, it's a heck of a deer and elk gun. Straight gripped and mounted with a 2.5 or 4X scope, it'll do nicely out to at least 250 yds. Example: With a 200 gr RN bullet sighted in 3" high at 100 yds, it has a 200 yd zero and is only 3" low at 250. That's a very killing proposition for any game up through elk. For deer, he uses Remington 200 gr Core Loks, or the equivalent Hornady or Sierra bullets and has a deer killer without equal. It's like a .35 Remington Marlin 336 on steroids, easily 250 fps faster at the muzzle.

Some may object to the availability of store bought ammunition, I'd recommend reloading for it. I do so for my son, and have used .358 Winchester RCBS dies with good results. I inside lube the necks, and main body with Imperial sizing lube and run them through the .358 Sizing die. It's no trouble whatsoever, and brass is as good as store bought.

HTH's Rod

 

[Ks5shooter]

All good rounds, stretching it for the 45-70 at those ranges. 444s are nice but most have the wrong twist, 358 is what I'd g.et

Yep what Troy said^^^^^

 

[Nature Boy]

Here’s a drop table for my favorite BLR .358 Win load using 225gn Sierra GameKings

 

[Chuck R.]

Here’s a drop table for my favorite BLR .358 Win load using 225gn Sierra GameKings

View attachment 1198254

Any issues with expansion with the 225s at that velocity?

I've used the Sierras in my 350Rm at 2750FPS on a 5x4 Elk at just under 300yds and they mushroomed perfectly just under the off-side hide. I'd heard that they're were a tough bullet, so I've refrained from using them in my 358.

 

[Nature Boy]

Any issues with expansion with the 225s at that velocity?

Nope

140 yards

Entry/Exit,

 

[N555]

Yep, it's so obsolete that given Marlin's rather extensive catalog, the 1895 was the first model Ruger brought back to production.

A one ounce bullet that's barely supersonic with the aerodynamic efficiency of a brick isn't most people's first choice for anything.

 

[CraigC]

A one ounce bullet that's barely supersonic with the aerodynamic efficiency of a brick isn't most people's first choice for anything.

Yep, it's so obsolete that given Marlin's rather extensive catalog, the 1895 was the first model Ruger brought back to production.

 

[natman]

A one ounce bullet that's barely supersonic with the aerodynamic efficiency of a brick isn't most people's first choice for anything.

I'll grant you that it's somewhat specialized, but if you're hunting something big in thick cover, a Marin 1895 with warm 45/70 loads is hard to beat.

 

[Lennyjoe]

A guy I know has a 1979 produced Marlin .444 for sale at $1150 and if I didn’t already have 2 45-70’s (Marlin and a Henry) I’d buy it from him.

 

[Chuck R.]

I'll grant you that it's somewhat specialized, but if you're hunting something big in thick cover, a Marin 1895 with warm 45/70 loads is hard to beat.

+1

Which is the way I look at all 3 of the cartridges mentioned.. as woods/mid range calibers.

I like a .358 bullet at about 2500FPS at 150yds and under, because they're somewhat forgiving on shot placement when it comes to wasting meat. I believe the mid-bores and large bores kill "differently". I've shouldered animals with 3000+ FPS cartridges at close distances.. and it was bad, all bad when it comes to blood shot meat, even with premium bullets. I don't get that with a larger bore limping along at a sedate 1900-2500 FPS.

And a lot of times in the thick stuff it's hard to impossible to wait for a double lung presentation especially if you're hunting on the move. I also don't need a flat trajectory on deer sized game out to 200yds.

 

[styles]

Savage 99 .358 is what you seek