375 HH & 416 Rem

[ExAgoradzo]

Playing the hypothetical game here; though Inwould love either one, trip to Africa is not likely, but I know some of you like playing this game as much as I do...I'm not being a poser...

So, the 416 seems to me to be the ideal DG round for Africa: better ballistics than the 458 WM, better power than the 375, and not egregiously overpowered like anything more than the 458.

However, the 375 has several advantages: powerful 'enough', better ballistics, cheaper, can get more in the mag (depending on rifle), cheaper ammo (usually), and though 'over powered' for US has enough cool factor and not embarrrasingly over powered that if you showed up to an elk or even hog hunt you'd be laughed out of camp. 'Adequate' for ADG, but prob not the gun the PH would want (speculation there).

I own a 338 WM so this is not a necessity: off the bench it is too much gun for me for very long, but in a hunting position pleasantly firm.

This is just fun to think about. What do you guys think about these rounds?

Thanks,
Greg

 

[H&Hhunter]

For an all around North America rifle that is African DG capable the .375H&h wins hands down.

For an all around Africa rifle that will be carried in elephant country the .416 is the winner.

For an Alaska Rifle the .416 is not a bad choice in thick cover in brown bear country or for close quarters moose hunting. But as an all around longer range capable rifle that retains much stopping power the .375 is the winner.

Now when you add in the modern 350 gr .416 bullets the old .416 becomes a lot more all around capable. But it still doesn't have the reach of the world's best true all arounder the .375H&H.

 

[dubbleA]

I love both calibers. Have two 416 Rigby's and a 375 H&H.

The 375 is much more versatile if you don't plan on leaving NA. Ballistics are solid and recoil is very manageable with the H&H. Have taken numerous whitetail and hogs with it and contrary to common belief it doesn't blow them in two.


I can hotrod the Rigby some to get more than 2400fps with a 400gr but the recoil gets a little stiff after more than 10 or rounds. I have settled on the Barnes TSX 350gr. in the 416.

 

[69Precision]

For an all around North America rifle that is African DG capable the .375H&h wins hands down.

For an all around Africa rifle that will be carried in elephant country the .416 is the winner.

For an Alaska Rifle the .416 is not a bad choice in thick cover in brown bear country or for close quarters moose hunting. But as an all around longer range capable rifle that retains much stopping power the .375 is the winner.

Now when you add in the modern 350 gr .416 bullets the old .416 becomes a lot more all around capable. But it still doesn't have the reach of the world's best true all arounder the .375H&H.

+1. Range for me is the main advantage in choosing the 375. When I hunted AK a few years back, that's what I chose and could not have asked for more. I fired 4 rounds in 2 weeks:
8 ft grizzly, 160 yards, quartering toward me. Shot him in the shoulder and bullet exited opposite hip. Didn't take 1 step.
Caribou, 210 yards,shot through lungs. Ran maybe 100 yards. Bullet didn't expand at all,since it sailed right through.
Caribou #2, 360 yards, through both shoulders , dead right there.
Wolf, 422 yards. Spine, dead right there.
I was shooting the 300gr swift A-frame remington factory ammo.

 

[Garrobo]

Having hunted Africa

several time in two different countries, Zimbabwe and Namibia, my suggestion would be that if you are going after anything larger than a warthog that you bring a .375 H&H. If you are going to take a buff or ele I would suggest any of the .458's, preferably the Lott or Ackley. Since Winchester has mixed up a nice, more powerful, recipe for their .458 which actually does what it had always been advertised to do, you might even want to try one of theirs. I took a .416 Remington and rented a .30-06 on one trip and was very pleased with this combination. I did a one-shot on a buff with the .416 which dropped him like a piece of lead. If and when I go back I will be taking only the .450 Ackley which I recently finished. It's on a P-13 action and weighs 9 1/2 pounds without a scope. I'm going after a couple buff and a leopard. I will surely rent a scoped .30-06 for the cat and any bait and camp meat that will be necessary to kill. Not being a trophy hunter I like to do head shots on meat animals and buffs. This way, you never lose an animal.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I'm going after a couple buff and a leopard. I will surely rent a scoped .30-06 for the cat and any bait and camp meat that will be necessary to kill. Not being a trophy hunter I like to do head shots on meat animals and buffs. This way, you never lose an animal.

Garrobo,

Help me understand your statement above. Are you saying that you go to Africa to "meat hunt"?

Head shots on buff? I've made head shots on buff as finishers but a head shot on a buff is just about impossible from the side. Do you wait for a the buff the face you? I'd say that you've got a far better chance of losing a buff by attempting a head shot, head shots on buff are tricky.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I chose the .375 RUM for my (one day) trip to Africa, where I do intend a to go after a buffalo.

The upside? Puts down more power than even the .416 RM and .416 Rigby with decent loads, and has the trajectory of a .270. Launching 300 gr. spitzers at 2,970 FPS and 250s at 3,150, it's a sledgehammer.

Downside? High pressure round (theoretically could make for difficult extraction in hot & humid climates), and a recoil impulse heavier and sharper than the two rounds you're considering.

It also served as my bull elk rifle until I finally found a 700 BDL 8mm mag in good enough condition without a ridiculous price tag. Both rounds are, of course, overkill for even a large bull at normal ranges. Why then? In case that once-in-a-lifetime bull is standing on a distant ridge where I have plenty of time to set up the shot, but no real hope of stalking closer.

 

[Gordon]

First time in 82 I took a .300 weatherby and a .458 Winchester. Back then I could afford a buffalo and a lion. I left the .458 with the PH as a tip . Thae last trip 7 years ago took a .375 H&H and a .270 WSM. Only shot a Wildebeast with the .375 and all other plains game with the .270WSM. All the plains game were one shot kills, the Wildebeast took 2 shots. Who can afford the big dangerous game anymore except oil sheikhs ? Not anyone I know, and some ranchers I know own 9000 acres ! So a real 2015 hunt would use maybe 2-3 boxes of twenty cartridges of what we would call elk or moose medicine class rounds. That would be greater than .270 winchester up to .375 realistically. Hard to beat .300 magnums IMHO as all around.

 

[AKMtnRunner]

If you need more than your 338, best go with a 416. But if you're looking for something that's fun and starts with a 4, I suggest a 45-70 lever action.

 

[ExAgoradzo]

AK,
You are of course correct. A few years ago we went camping in Yellostone, so I talked my wife into an 1895 GBL: bear protection.... So the 'need' dept is filled no doubt. And as far as the Need for the 338, well, it was an opportunity that I couldn't pass. Five bills for the gun, some reloads and a set of dies...couldn't pass it up.

But I've been wanting the .375 for some time now and just haven't put the money together with the gun in front of me (not a great need for one in CA!). It is a dream though to have a nice AHR or at least the CZ 550 or Win M 70. Alas, too many life priorities before that. So once in a while I start dreaming about big guns and come up with some pseudo-question on THR and love reading the responses...
Greg

 

[Garrobo]

H&H hunter----I said that I am not a "trophy" hunter. I have no use for stuffed head, paws on a board, etc. My "trophies" are kept in my head. I go hunting for the Africa experience and to kill mostly culls. The "meat" goes to the camp or a local boma. A head shot on a buff, either from the side, in the ear, the nose, the eye, below the chin, etc. is great medicine with .400 or larger bullet and, yes, sometimes it is "tricky". Buffs like the dense woods. Of course, I hunt with a PA whose job it is to make a kill shot in case I **** up my first shot and can't get a second one off in time. Sometimes we do the 1-2-3-fire thingy, too. If you've hunted DG's you know what I mean. Buffs are very expensive, not to mention the time it takes to track down a wounded one. I also like a neck shot which is a great when you pull it off. I have never shot a buff over 20 yards and if you can't place one in one of these spots................

 

[Robert]

Yeah I think it is safe to say that H&Hhunter has hunted DG once or twice.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I'm going after a couple buff and a leopard. I will surely rent a scoped .30-06 for the cat and any bait and camp meat that will be necessary to kill. Not being a trophy hunter I like to do head shots on meat animals and buffs. This way, you never lose an animal.

You say you are not a trophy hunter yet you are going after a "couple of buffalo and a leopard". That is very confusing to me? If you are not a trophy hunter why are you hunting buffalo and leopard. At the current cost that is one heck of price per pound for buffalo meat. And a leopard? For the meat? Really? I hope to god you aren't planning on going over and shooting a leopard then letting that beautiful hide go to waste. The hunt you just described "couple of buffalo and leopard" is going to run about $40K with airfare. That is mighty nice of you to supply the local "boma" with $40K of buffalo and leopard meat.

You then go on to say;

I said that I am not a "trophy" hunter. I have no use for stuffed head, paws on a board, etc. My "trophies" are kept in my head

I've never seen "paws on board" on anybodies wall? What in the even heck are you talking about?

A head shot on a buff, either from the side, in the ear, the nose, the eye, below the chin, etc. is great medicine with .400 or larger bullet and, yes, sometimes it is "tricky".

A .270 in the brain of a buffalo is "good medicine" but methinks from your description that you have NO IDEA where the brain is located in a buffalo's head. The boss and horn of a buffalo bull completely covers the the brain from the side making a side brain shot almost impossible due to deflection issues. Shoot them in the eye and you've got a one eyed buffalo that is otherwise healthy. The ear hole also lies under the horn. Their brain is almost perfectly protected under the Boss. Head shots on buffalo as a primary are pretty rare and are generally only taken when a buffalo is facing the hunter and there is no other option at close range.

Of course, I hunt with a PA whose job it is to make a kill shot in case I **** up my first shot and can't get a second one off in time.

It is awesome that you hunt with a Physicians Assistant (PA). I'm sure he's a good shot. I hunt with a PH (Professional Hunter) and if he was ever to shoot an animal that wasn't trying, at that moment kill me, without my express permission we'd have a very serious problem.

Sometimes we do the 1-2-3-fire thingy, too. If you've hunted DG's you know what I mean.

I have extensive experience hunting African and North American DG. Not only have I never done the "1-2-3 fire thingy". I wouldn't have any part of a PH who was in the habit of or would have the gall to even broach the subject of party shooting on one of my hunts. A PH's job is to provide local knowledge, guiding service, camp management, game conservation, herd management, problem animal control, anti poaching and to provide shooting back up in case of a life threatening dire emergency. It is NOT a PH's job to shoot your game for you. In fact every PH I've ever known or have spoken to would be revolted by the idea of shooting a clients game. So to answer your question NO I don't "know what you mean"....

And in closing, no I'm not buying your story.

 

[Dane17]

I went on my first Cape buffalo hunt in South Africa last October. Not wanting to deal with the hassles of transport I borrowed a gun there. It was an fn 375 H&H bolt gun. All the PHs had side by sides. The recoil really wasn't bad. It performed well on the buffalo I was lucky enough to shoot while quartering away. It got up briefly then fell again for good in about 30-40 yards.

I can't imagine my PH taking a shot unless it was to save my life as I would have been very upset after the work I put in and he would have been out the large trophy fee.

Interestingly, he loaded so that a soft point would be shot first then 2 hard points in the theory that follow up shots would likey be to the head in a charging animal.

I can say after my experience in Africa in planning for my first Alaska brown bear hunt I am set on 375 H&H or ruger despite having a 45-70 gun that I love and hunt hogs with regularly.

Obviously my big game experience is not vast, but hopefully it provides some insight.

 

[horsemen61]

Love these kinds of threads for me ehh one of both please

 

[ExAgoradzo]

I'm with you horsemen, but for me part of the allure is the chase of the gun itself. I think God hasn't let be be rich (by U.S. Standards...where I go in Haiti is another story!) because I would want one of each of a lot of things...! I keep trying to think of some other angle but H&H Hunter keeps bringing back to reality...get the granddaddy of them all, some day. But till then, I'll just keep dreaming.

Greg

 

[witchhunter]

I bought a set of .375 H&H dies off ebay for 13.00. That justifies an express rifle doesn't it?

 

[HankB]

I may not have H&H Hunter's experience, but I have hunted Africa several times, taking a couple of buffalo, lion, hippo, and a few plains game animals with my .375 which worked just fine. (Of course, my .30/06 worked fine on plains game like kudu, gemsbok, zebra, and wildebeest, so there's something to be said for shot placement.)

As much as I like my .375, I really can't argue the fact that a .416 will hit harder, but in the case of my animals, I don't think they would have gone down any faster. Not having one I can't say for sure, but I've read that the .416 Remington struggles to make an honest 2400 ft/sec out of most rifles without high pressures. (2350? Game won't tell the difference.)

Head shots? The only head shot I took was on the hippo - bullet went right through the middle of the brain case, hippo just sank without so much as a shudder - no cartridge could do better.

 

[splithoof]

So, what do you experienced hunters think of the .416 Ruger?
I thought it would be fun to find one of their stainless bolt rifles in that, even though I may never take it to the Dark Continent.

 

[js8588]

Don't spend a fortune and get both, but with a twist: 375 Ruger (in a Ruger Guide Gun of course) and a 416 Rigby in a CZ 550 Safari (I'd go Lux but you may prefer American).

The 375 Ruger is top of the class in the non-insane 375s. Presents a real improvement in velocity over factory loaded H&H and does it in a shorter barrel.

The Rigby has yet to be surpassed by Ruger, Remington, or anything else, sans Weatherby and the CZ does it in classic style at working-joe prices. Do it.

 

[Robert]

I love my Winchester Safari Express in 375H&H. I have put 3 rounds into an area the size of my palm at a paced off 500y from a seated position in the dirt. While the 416 will hit hard I don't know how much range you can ring out of it like the 375. My longest shot was on a dinner plate sized rock at a range finder measured 535y from standing, hit it dead center.

Yeah the Ruger does it in a standard size action with a short barrel at higher speeds but say 375Ruger and 375H&H to someone and see which they are more interested by

 

[H&Hhunter]

So, what do you experienced hunters think of the .416 Ruger?
I thought it would be fun to find one of their stainless bolt rifles in that, even though I may never take it to the Dark Continent.

I am not one for new fangled rounds and with that in mind. I really like the .416 Ruger. Considering the whole package for the price in such a compact easy to carry, easy to shoot rifle you really can't do much better. For an all around practical DG rifle the .416 Ruger gets a thumbs up from me.

 

[OYE]

Choosing between the 375 H & H and the 416 Rigby is a hard choice. Been thinking about it quite a while. One of our local 375 advocates has done some pretty impressive shooting as well. He's late 30's and well over 6 feet and in great shape though. Turned up with a detached retina a while back during a shooting session. He's lost interest in them. Made our choice a lot easier.
OYE

Symptoms (from the Mayo Clinic):

•The sudden appearance of many floaters — small bits of debris in your field of vision that look like spots, hairs or strings and seem to float before your eyes
•Sudden flashes of light in the affected eye
•A shadow or curtain over a portion of your visual field that develops as the detachment progresses

 

[H&Hhunter]

If he got a detached retina from a .375 I'm guessing he was getting ready to have a detached retina anyway.

 

[OYE]

I'd say so too.