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38 Special ammo question
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Reloadron
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I agree and yes, Starline .45 ACP does have less case volume in their .45 ACP brass the reasoning is the .45 ACP +P brass comes in about 17 grains heavier resulting in less case volume. Actually about 2 grains less case water volume. The reason being that .45 ACP ammunition can be fired in a partially unsupported chamber. This is not the case in a revolver. A typical .38 special case has a case wall thickness of about 0.010" measuring a piece of Starline and Winchester brass side by side and I don't know of any manufacturers who specifically make .38 Special +P brass ant thicker than their standard brass I can't see where even if I double the case wall thickness the volume will change much looking at the .45 ACP example. Also, SAAMI Voluntary Industry Performance Standards for Pressure and Velocity of Centerfire Pistol and Revolver Ammunition for the Use of Commercial Manufacturers is not a binding standard like for example CIP (Europe's equivalent of SAAMI) which has legal authority. There is no +P, there is one pressure for .38 Special and across the pond they cannot manufacture what we call +P. The .38 Special CIP standard is 150 MPa, 21,756 psi. That is it. Anyway adding 17 grains of weight to a .45 ACP case only yields 2 grains of actual water capacity. while a good idea in a .45 ACP it makes no sense in a revolver cartridge.
On a personal note I see no reason to push .38 Special. Looking back when was the first mention of +P or even +P+? I want to say maybe early 90s? They up the .38 Special for newer stronger guns and that's about it. If I had some other manufacturer other than Win or Starline brass marked +P headstamp I would measure it but I doubt case wall thickness would change. If you have any good published data on it I would appreciate a read.
Ron
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Illegal Possession of Hollow Nose or Hollow Point Bullets in New Jersey
Nothing surprises me anymore with states like NY, NJ CA and several other states. Actually I have heard but not researched that other states have similar laws. But note in NJ law who may carry HP bullet ammunition. Go figure huh?
Ron
I wonder if you can use these in NJ? These are supposed to do as much damage as a hollow point.
Black Hills Ammuniton--Honeybadger
When I entered LE in the late 70s, .38Spl +P rounds were out standard issue.
Believe the Treasury Load was the first +P+ factory offering and was restricted for LE use only. The California Highway Patrol adopted the Treasury load (100gr JHP +P+) for their first issued revolver, the S&W M68
The permanent wound cavity is no larger than the bullet.
I would not carry them. A prosecutor or plaintiff could have a field day with them. All downside, no upside.
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aaaaa
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in NJ or anywhere?
I guess I have 50 fancy target rounds.
I can't stand these prosecutors. The whole idea of a bullet is to prevent someone killing or maiming me and I am supposed to pussyfoot my defending myself?
They claim a big wound cavity. Not sure with handgun, but at carbine velocity says the .357 generates a 6" diameter wound cavity.
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aaaaa
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Well that thread is closed so I will put it here. Someone has tried loading a 38 Special cartridge to .357 Magnum pressure:
Bullets are also used in incidents that are not lawfully justified. The finders of fact will with all of the evidence--all that did not disappear and that can be verified. Jury simulations show that mean-looking weapons can influence juries negatively--they go to state of mind.
Gel tests show a wide temporary wound channel. That's not what one wants.
Driftwood Johnson
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Many, if not all, of the old cartridges we associate with Smokeless powder today were originally loaded with Black Powder. All of these cartridges had voluminous cartridge cases to hold enough Black Powder to make a potent load. This photo shows the cartridges I regularly load with Black Powder. Left to right they are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, 38-40 and 45-70. The old cartridge naming convention such as 44-40, 38-40, 32-20, 25-20, and 45-70 called out the caliber of the bullet with the first number, and the weight in grains of Black Powder inside the cartridge with the second number.
Here is what goes into one of my Black Powder 45 Colt cartridges. 2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg under a 250 grain Big Lube bullet.
I have never personally loaded 38 Special with Black Powder, but several of my fellow CAS shooters do it all the time.
One thing one learns early when loading cartridges with Black Powder is to stay as far away from Pyrodex as possible. It is more corrosive than real Black Powder, and requires the same type of bullets, with a soft, gooey BP compatible bullet lube.
There are a few tricks involved loading cartridges with Black Powder, as well as cleaning the guns afterwards. I can tell you that after a CAS match where I have fired 45 Colt in two revolvers, 44-40 in a rifle, and 12 gauge shotgun in a SXS shotgun, I usually clean the rifle at my car before going home, it takes about 5 minutes. The two revolvers take about 5 minutes each when I get home, and the shotgun takes about 10 minutes. Also, don't believe everything you have heard about how corrosive Black Powder is. Many years ago, when BP fouling combined with fouling from corrosive primers, the fouling was very corrosive. We have not used corrosive primers in decades, and the BP fouling is far less corrosive than some shooters think. I have often gone a week or more (I ain't telling how much more) before cleaning my guns after shooting them with Black Powder in a CAS match. Yes, I am that lazy. Never found any corrosion after finally cleaning the guns.
Well, sorry, but I am going to quote you. Nobody in CAS puts corn starch or anything else in their Smokeless cartridges to make them smoke more. What I believe you heard is that some shooters put grits, or other cereal in a Black Powder cartridge to fill up the empty space resulting when they shoot cartridges with a charge that does not completely fill up the case. As I may or may not have said earlier, there must be no air space in a cartridge loaded with Black Powder. The powder must completely fill the case, and needs to be compressed slightly when the bullet is seated. If somebody wants to shoot a milder load than 35 or 40 grains of Black Powder in a 45 Colt, the practice is to put in the powder, then add some grits or other cereal on top of the powder before seating the bullet. I messed around adding corn meal on top of my 45 Colt loads many years ago, but it was not worth the extra bother. These days I fill up the case and then seat a bullet.
Unique is my go to powder when I load Smokeless, but it does not smoke anywhere near as much as Black Powder. This is the smoke that a Black Powder 45 Colt cartridge creates.
fxvr5
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It's my understanding that the Treasury Load was 110 grains.
Oops, finger slipped to the 0 too fast…yes, it was a 110 JHP
Not a very pleasant round to shoot and tough on frames
halfmoonclip
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Nine forties are great, but they are also out of production. Wish Smith would make another run of them...but they are surprisingly rappy to shoot. They do use moon clips, which makes a great speed load.
Moon
halfmoonclip
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Hey Driftwood...where did you get your powder dipper? Presume you measure by volume. I made one of a .45 ACP case with a screw handle, but yours looks far more elegant.
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Driftwood Johnson
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That one is part of the set of dippers sold by Lee.
https://leeprecision.com/powder-measure-kit.html
Here are a few of the Lee dippers along with a couple I made from soldering a shell to a piece of brass wire.
However most of the time I load my BP cartridges on a Hornady Lock & Load AP Progressive press, equipped with a Lyman Black Powder Measure.
I buy old Lyman Smokeless powder measures when I find them for sale at the white elephant table at gunshows.
The rotors fit into the Lyman BP measure. I set each one for a specific powder charge that I use in a specific cartridge.
So yes, you could day I measure my Black Powder by volume, no different than measuring Smokeless powder with any conventional powder measure that also portions out the powder by volume.
Here is a batch of 44-40 being loaded with BP into shiny new cases on my Hornady press.
45-70 I load on my old Lyman Spartan single stage press. I drop the powder into the cases with a drop tube.
I load Black Powder shotgun shells on my old MEC Jr. I do use a Lee dipper to dip the powder into my shotgun hulls. I don't use modern shotgun wads with my BP shotgun loads, I use separate fiber wads from Circle Fly.
Sorry if this has caused this thread to drift.
They went shopping for a new cartridge, and a new gun, but not a revolver. While the new cartridge and gun were in the works (what would become the Colt 1911 and the .45ACP) they went back to their old SAA revolvers. There's some debate about whether or not the .45 Colt was actually more effective against the Moros than the .38 Long Colt--I've seen some sources that said nothing but 12Ga shotguns stopped them authoritatively.
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No problem. I am enjoying the drift.
Driftwood Johnson
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Howdy Again
The original barrel length of the Colt Single Action Army in 1873 was 7 1/2", and they were chambered for the 45 Colt cartridge. These were mostly issued to Cavalry units. Because of this, the 7 1/2" barreled Colt was often referred to as the Cavalry model. By the time of the Spanish American War in 1898, many of these Colts were worn and needed to be refurbished. Some were sent back to Colt, some to the Springfield Armory in Springfield MASS. Many of these had their 7 1/2" barrels chopped to 4 3/4". These were mostly issued to artillery units, so the 4 3/4" barreled Colts are often referred to as the Artillery Model.
This pair of Colts are not antiques, they are 2nd Gen Colts. They represent Cavalry Model and Artillery Model barrel lengths. And yes, a 45 Colt loaded with about 40 grains of Black Powder and a 250 grain bullet would have been much more effective against anything than a 38 Long Colt loaded with 18 grains of Black Powder and a 150 grain bullet.
It definitely has more impressive ballistics. The problem is that reports said even the Krag rifles, certainly far more powerful than any pistol of the time, came up wanting against the Moro attacks.
Here's a quote--regrettably the website where I originally found it no longer exists:
Singly, Hassan rushed the American line with only his barong, cutting up a soldier and two officers before being brought down. "It was determined that thirty-two Krag bullets hit Hassan before a last bullet from a sergeant's revolver [an old Peacemaker] plugged him dead between the eyes."
Here's another source that mentions the same incident.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_uprising
The only thing I've seen reported as being successful against the Moro attacks were shotguns.
In other words, there seems to be widespread agreement that the .38 Long Colt didn't work, but a lot of people assume that the .45 Colt, when it was returned to service did better. From what I can tell, there is no evidence to support that assumption. Reports indicate that nothing worked very well other than shotguns or head shots.
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I could not find that cutaway cartridge image when I started this thread, but just stumbled across it so figure I will post it. It may not be accurate but it is what got me started on this in the first place. So here it is, but I would think something is filling the gap because I would think it is not good for the powder to be loose inside the case.
Palladan44
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Generally speaking, the faster burning the powder (for caliber) the less "position sensitive" it is. But, slower powders (for caliber) generally give a better case fill, so the "position" of the powder becomes less of a variable anyways (WW-296 in a 357 Mag) That cutaway shown is even a pretty generous case fill compared to most fast powders used in .38 specials......maybe Unique could fill it that much for a standard .38 special. At a glance that looks like at least 6 grains of something in that case, which is a lot for a .38 with almost any powder.
Every powder has "position sensitivity" to some degree. In .38s, the faster powders will be sitting pretty flat across the bottom of the case, and most ignitions will have a pretty similar powder position when firing. Most shots are fired flat and level to the target. Shooting straight up in the air or straight down....maybe be slightly different burn characteristic. I've found W-231 Ball powder to be a great powder for .38 special target loads.
What is highly position sensitive IMO is low end 2400 loads for .38+P or 357. Blue Dot also, and a few others.
Extreme spread velocities coming in at high numbers....is a possible indicator of a position sensitive powder, among other possibilities.
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I think for bear one would do well to have a pump 12-gauge filled with rifled slugs and/or a high caliber rifle. For a handgun (I am thinking revolver), I am not sure what would be best but perhaps a 44? Would a 357 Mag be enough to stop a bear?
Palladan44
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There are plenty of threads on this, im assuming we're not going to go here. Let's not ruin this thread with a "dangerous game" discussion that has no end.
wcwhitey
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Illegal Possession of Hollow Nose or Hollow Point Bullets in New Jersey
Nothing surprises me anymore with states like NY, NJ CA and several other states. Actually I have heard but not researched that other states have similar laws. But note in NJ law who may carry HP bullet ammunition. Go figure huh?
Ron
I travel and carry through New Jersey often, yes hollow points are a no no in that state. Hornady Critical Defense or Critical Duty with the nylon nose piece is not considered a hollow point, that is the get around. If you are carrying a snubby where expansion is a sometimes deal a good SWC or Full Wadcutter is an option. If you reload RimRock makes a very nice 158 grain SWC with an extra wide nose, nice sharp shoulder and excellent frontal area.
https://rimrockbullets.com/xcart/tsh-38-357-mag-158-gr-swc-wn-per-200.html
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Sorry, I suppose I get sidetracked too easily.
Reloadron
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Thank you for that information. I was NYC born and grew up there. Living in Ohio now. My wife and I make yearly trips back to the big apple and I actually sanitize the truck before we go back.
Making sure there is no ammunition or even reloading components, let alone a gun along for the ride. Not so much for NJ but for NY. Anyway thank you for the informative read. Ron
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