38 special equals 9mm?

[Martel]

Looking to buy a revolver for the wife, and the Ruger LCR is at the top of my list. A friend owns one, and let me shoot a few cylinders through it. Awesome gun. Amazingly light and accurate. My geekyness kicked in and I started researching .38 special, since I don't know much about revolvers in general and as a hand loader I was curious.

Turns out a .38 special standard load is under 200 foot lbs of energy? And that's from a 4 inch barrel!

I have found some +p loads that range in energy from 250 ft lbs to over 400. I had no idea there was that much range in the +p loads....or am I missing something?

I have always thought of .38 special as basically (and ballistically) similar to a 9mm. Wheelgunners, is that the case?

 

[19-3Ben]

I have found some +p loads that range in energy from 250 ft lbs to over 400. I had no idea there was that much range in the +p loads....or am I missing something?

Part of the beauty of revolvers is the ability to take an incredible range of power levels in ammo. Without relying on pressure from the cartridge to drive the mechanism and the eject/feed cycle you can get light target loads all the way up to serious defensive stuff.

I have always thought of .38 special as basically (and ballistically) similar to a 9mm. Wheelgunners, is that the case?

Keep in mind that there's a lot more than KE at play. There is bullet weight, bullet shapes, sectional densities, etc.. etc...

In the end, I don't think they're different enough to matter to the guy at the end of the muzzle.

 

[Bubba613]

The old "FBI load" has a long record of putting people in the ground. That is generally my preferred load. It works just fine.

 

[R.W.Dale]

From a snub nosed revolver I'm finding that 9mm is much closer to 357 mag in performance than it is 38spl

For example from a 2" bbl speers 124g +p gold dot loading makes 1155 fps. This is within 100 fps of what most 357 loads do with this bullet weight in a 2" bbl.

38 from what I've been researching struggles to hit 1000 fps in a snubby in +p trim with this bullet weight.

But perhaps best of all 9mm from a snubby revolver has only a fraction of the cataclysmic blast and flash 357 does in short short barrels.

 

[Loosedhorse]

My .38 has only five shots, so it's worse than 9mm.

And fires a 158 gr soft lead SWCHP, so it's better than 9mm.

 

[jrdolall]

I notice a BIG difference in recoil when using +p in the 642. I don't chronogaph anything but follow up shots at 20 feet with the +p are much more difficult for me to put on target. Standard 9mm from my PF9 have less felt recoil than the +p from the 642.

 

[easyg]

I have always thought of .38 special as basically (and ballistically) similar to a 9mm. Wheelgunners, is that the case?

No, this is not the case.

All other things being equal, the 9mm Para will out-perform the .38 special.

But the .38 special is still enough to stop most men.

 

[jmr40]

A 9mm +P from a full size pistol with at least 4" of barrel is running right with 357 mag revolvers with 4" or less barrels when shooting 125 gr bullets. The 9mm will be shooting a 124 gr bullet 1200-1250 fps while the 357 mag will only get 1250-1300 fps with the same bullet weights.

38 special, even 38+p is not in the same power class as 9mm.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Martel,
Don't get so hung up on the numbers and look at results. The .38 Special when loaded with a good bullet has been stopping bad guys for over 100 years now. I guess those guys didn't know the numbers were different for the .38 Special compared to the 9mm, they just got dead...

If you like to carry a semi-auto buy a 9mm. If your a revolver guy like me but a .38 Special. Both will do their jib if you do yours. Hit what you aim at and the rest will take care of itself...

 

[19-3Ben]

A 9mm +P from a full size pistol with at least 4" of barrel is running right with 357 mag revolvers with 4" or less barrels when shooting 125 gr bullets. The 9mm will be shooting a 124 gr bullet 1200-1250 fps while the 357 mag will only get 1250-1300 fps with the same bullet weights.

You're telling a partial truth. Let's tell the rest of that story though. The 124gr. 9mm+p rounds that are 1200-1250 fps are about as fast as it gets for 9mm. That's like Buffalo Bore's territory. Even their +p+ loads in 124gr. only get to 1300fps. The 125gr. .357mag loads that are shooting at that velocity in a 4"bbl, are moderate level loads.

So what you are telling is in fact the truth, so long as you ignore that you are comparing the hottest 9mm to the midlevel .357mag.

Going back to Buffalo Bore, their 125 gr. .357mag load hits 1591fps from a 4"bbl.
That's a gain in the range of 350fps in favor of the .357mag when you compare apples to apples.
In fact, even BB's 158gr. loading hits 1485fps from a 4" bbls. So with a load that is 34 grains heavier, they still best the 124gr. 9mm by over 200fps.

And that's not taking into account that bullet profiles can be optimized for reliable expansion because they don't have to account for reliable feeding up a feed ramp. That is a nice bonus for any revolver load.

But this is a thread about the .38spl. ON PAPER, the 9mm beats .38spl almost every time. As I said toward the top, I don't know that it makes any difference though. A 158gr. .38spl slug chugging a long at a moderate pace still can stop as bad just as well as it has been doing for over 100 years.

If you like to carry a semi-auto buy a 9mm. If your a revolver guy like me but a .38 Special. Both will do their jib if you do yours. Hit what you aim at and the rest will take care of itself...

Wise words.

 

[RalphS]

I did some chrono testing with a friends LCR shooting 38 and 38+P loads

Reloads:
158 grain lead SWC (4.5 gr. Universal) - 775 fps
158 grain +P lead SWC (5.0 gr. Universal) - 827 fps
Factory Loads:
125 grain Nyclad - 841 fps
130 grain PMC - 794 fps
125 grain Speer Gold Dot +P - 928 fps

Now compare that to some factory loads with a 9mm 3 inch barrel XD9-SC -
WWB 115 gr 1080 fps
Winchester NATO 124 gr. 1104 fps
Speer GDHP 124 gr. 1127 fps
Win Ranger T (RA9T) 147 gr. 944 fps

These guns are about the same size. The most interesting comparison is the 125 gr. 38+P Speer Gold Dot (928 fps) to the 124 gr. 9mm Speer Gold Dot (1127 fps). Based on that, I decided against the LCR and will probably get a M&P Shield in 9mm.

The results make sense since 9mm operates at higher pressures than 38 Special.

 

[Zeke/PA]

I own 3 revolvers that are .38 Special capable, an old K-38 full target,a 686 Smith in .357 and my daily carry which is a Smith 638.
I shoot reloads at the range and +P Gold Dots in my daily carry.
I just love the .38 Special, a cartridge that is not given it's just due.
IMHO, this is due to the popularity of high cap mags these days.
To each his own, I'm sticking with the silplicity and 5/6 shot capacity of the revolvers.

 

[mnhntr]

If I were a betting man I would bet my money on a 158gr LSWC at +p velocity making better work of a bad guy than a 124gr JHP 9mm. But that is just an opinion. I have seen more than my share of gunshot wounds and the 9mm does not impress me. Maybe with a better bullet it would, but factory ammo seems to be limited to JHPs and FMJs. IMO JHPs only perform to their full potential at higher velocity or higher bullet weights. I believe to acheive good stopping power in lower velocities and bullet weights such as the 25acp-9mm or 38spl you need a cutting/pentrating bullet. It is very similar to broadheads in archery. The less you have in KE the more you need a cut on contact BH as opposed to a mechanical BH.

 

[fastbolt]

38 special equals 9mm?

How well can your wife shoot either caliber choice, in any proposed handgun being considered?

I've seen CCW & LE folks who were shooting both calibers sometimes do significantly better with one compared to the other.

As long as the caliber under discussion is one of the common service-type/defensive calibers (such as .38 Spl & 9mm, in this case) I tend to put more emphasis on effectively placed hits. Which caliber & platform can the particular shooter use to good effect?

I carry smallish 9's & .38's, myself.

 

[easyg]

So what you are telling is in fact the truth, so long as you ignore that you are comparing the hottest 9mm to the midlevel .357mag.

I believe his point was this:

The 9mm, at its hottest, can reach the power of a mid-level .357 magnum, while the .38 special, at its hottest simply cannot.

 

[Jim NE]

Here's what I don't quite understand: .38 and 9mm have the same bullet dia. (basically)...and the 9mm's are loaded hotter, yet the casings on .38 Spec ammo are longer. Do they just not load .38 ammo up to capacity or what? Because of old fragile guns?

Thing is, 9mm luger has been out there a long time, too, and there must be old warn out fragile 9 mm's as well.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Here's what I don't quite understand: .38 and 9mm have the same bullet dia. (basically)...and the 9mm's are loaded hotter, yet the casings on .38 Spec ammo are longer. Do they just not load .38 ammo up to capacity or what? Because of old fragile guns?

Thing is, 9mm luger has been out there a long time, too, and there must be old warn out fragile 9 mm's as well.

Way back when it was thought that autoloaders could withstand higher pressures than the revolvers of the day. And at the time this was probably true comparing period revolvers to the p08 Luger.

38 spl has a saami pressure rating of only 17k psi. 9x19 is loaded to 35k psi. The same as 357 magnum

 

[Ditchtiger]

---

 

[jbr]

Carrying either is better than carrying neither! I believe the 9 is overall a more powerful choice but i agree with Fastbolt - Which ever she shoots better - is probably the better choice for her.

 

[exbrit49]

Oh no! Not again

I swear this is becoming a monthly topic~!
Cant we find some more scintilating discussions?

Fed up with the onging "Mine is better than yours!"

 

[Certaindeaf]

This is interesting..

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=660680

 

[ArchAngelCD]

From the Hodgdon Load data site:
9mm 124gr Sierra FMJ 1162 fps Max load
38 Spl 125gr Hornady XTP 1068 fps Max load
38 Spl +P 125gr Hornady XTP 1228 fps Max load
357 Mag 125gr Hornady XTP 1996 fps Max load

The above data shows that the .38 Special +P will generate more velocity than a 9mm with the sane bullet weight and the standard pressure .38 Special comes close. As for the 9mm coming close to the .357 Magnum, not likely in this lifetime!!!

DoubleTap ammo:
125gr .38 Special +P 1175 fps 4" barrel
124gr 9mm +P 1295 fps Glock 19
125gr .357 Mag 1600 fps 4" barrel

Again, a 9mm running up with a .357 Magnum, not going to happen... BTW, revolvers will show a lower velocity because of the cylinder gap whereas a semi-auto has no such gap.

 

[R.W.Dale]

From the Hodgdon Load data site:
9mm 124gr Sierra FMJ 1162 fps Max load
38 Spl 125gr Hornady XTP 1068 fps Max load
38 Spl +P 125gr Hornady XTP 1228 fps Max load
357 Mag 125gr Hornady XTP 1996 fps Max load

The above data shows that the .38 Special +P will generate more velocity than a 9mm with the sane bullet weight and the standard pressure .38 Special comes close. As for the 9mm coming close to the .357 Magnum, not likely in this lifetime!!!

DoubleTap ammo:
125gr .38 Special +P 1175 fps 4" barrel
124gr 9mm +P 1295 fps Glock 19
125gr .357 Mag 1600 fps 4" barrel

Again, a 9mm running up with a .357 Magnum, not going to happen... BTW, revolvers will show a lower velocity because of the cylinder gap whereas a semi-auto has no such gap.

First off experienced handloaders understand that the velocity claims in load manual have essentially no bearing in the realm of reality.

Secontly your 357 magnum load shows RIFLE velocities.

THIRD $50 a box non saami doubletap loads that aren't safe in all firearms aren't an especially valid means of comparison.

No 38 spl load at the same bullet weight loaded to approximately half the pressure is going to best 9x19 in a similar platform. If it is its loaded to a great deal more pressure than 17k psi

 

[ArchAngelCD]

We all know load velocities can not be obtained by reloaders but all are from the same data so they are all wrong but correct when comparing each to the other.

The .357 Magnum 125gr data is not from the rifle load data, it's from the pistol data using W296/H110. The rifle data on the sight lists a 125gr bullet from a 18'5" barrel @2276 fps.

Again, I know that won't happen but all the calibers won't happen and are correct when comparing each against the other. (since they are all too high)

So you think DoubleTap ammo is not safe but buffalo Bore ammo is? Really??? I didn't tell anyone to buy either. I just used their data so we weren't comparing Buffalo Bore to CCI or MagTech to DoubleTap.

 

[Weevil]

If the .38 spl has been doing such a great job of stopping people for a 100 years then why'd they come up with the .357 magnum?