'Cause the Pinkertons wanted to shoot through car doors.
38 special equals 9mm?
- Thread starter Martel
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R.W.Dale
Member
I'm sorry I don't see anywhere I mentioned Buffalo bore? Do you?
No you can't cross compare reloading data and assume uniformity in the deviation even from one source.
For example hodgdons 38+p data represents a 7.7" test barrel. The 357 is from a 10" tube and 9mm from a short 4" tube.
No comparisons at all can be derived because of this discrepancy
CountryUgly
Member
The only thing I can add is shooting the Win. PDX1 130gr +p .38spl out of my 442 is brutal on my end so I'd sure hate to be on the other end of it. My 92fs even loaded with +P+ is a cake walk to shoot but I'd still rather not be on the business end of that one either.
Well now
I'm quite aware of the various bullet weights vs velocity and the whole "KE vs Momentum" debate, being a physics teacher.
I just find it very odd that some people seem to think that .38 is perfectly adequate and a 9mm is woefully underpowered.
Haha I don't worry too much about numbers usually (heck I've carried a 9mm loaded with Federal Premium reduced recoil hollowpoints for years) but again with the physics aspect...I was just a little shocked to see such low numbers for some .38 sp standard loads. Doing some more research and looking at some of the data you guys have posted, it looks like they are in fact closer than the 200 ft lbs I was seeing for .38 and the 450 ft lbs for 9mm.
The wife shoots my 9mm fine but I doubt she'd ever carry anything so big, and my PF-9 just had WAY too much recoil for her to handle. It's a snappy little devil.
I'm thinking I'll get the wife the first good deal I see on an LCR, whether it is a .357 or a .38. I doubt she'd ever carry .357 loads...but I might on occasion.
I'm quite aware of the various bullet weights vs velocity and the whole "KE vs Momentum" debate, being a physics teacher.
I just find it very odd that some people seem to think that .38 is perfectly adequate and a 9mm is woefully underpowered.
Haha I don't worry too much about numbers usually (heck I've carried a 9mm loaded with Federal Premium reduced recoil hollowpoints for years) but again with the physics aspect...I was just a little shocked to see such low numbers for some .38 sp standard loads. Doing some more research and looking at some of the data you guys have posted, it looks like they are in fact closer than the 200 ft lbs I was seeing for .38 and the 450 ft lbs for 9mm.
The wife shoots my 9mm fine but I doubt she'd ever carry anything so big, and my PF-9 just had WAY too much recoil for her to handle. It's a snappy little devil.
I'm thinking I'll get the wife the first good deal I see on an LCR, whether it is a .357 or a .38. I doubt she'd ever carry .357 loads...but I might on occasion.
Doghandler
Member
The only way to solve this question is to have a crony picnic with SP101s , 9mm, .38 Special and .357s. Sounds like a good way to spend a day.
R.W.Dale
Member
I have a 9mm snubby. Perhaps we can get some other thehighroadies with chronographs and 38/357 snubbies to chrony some ammo and loads so we can start a database
Snubnosed files has a plethora of 2" 38 chrony data.
http://www.snubnose.info/docs/snubby_ballistics.htm
Note how no 125 g loads crack 1000 fps even in +p format
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easyg
Member
Nobody is forcing you to open and read or participate in any particular thead.
If the topic bothers you then just ignore it and move on.
Stress kills.
R.W.Dale
Member
I know right. If we're not going to discuss and compare various cartridges and forearms on a GUN FORUM then what the heck are we going to post about?
beatledog7
Member
Nothing = anything in firearms. Everything is a compromise, which is why we have so many choices.
Yay choice!
Yay choice!
Big Lew in NC
Member
9 versus 38
New member here....
WOW I have been shooting 20 years and it's amazing to see the 9 v. 38 debate boiling at the same intensity of 2 decades ago. Going back to the original post, gun for the wife, either the 38 +p or 9 would be fine. Let me throw something else: If you are looking at Ruger (good) then look at their new 32 remington magnum chambering. It has better energy than both the 38 and 9 and low recoil and blast. I recommended that to my father-in-law for my mother-in-law. Within the original context, the 158g 38+p would work fine and so would the 124 g 9. I don't happen to like 9s in general, but they perform well and cannot be denied consideration.
New member here....
WOW I have been shooting 20 years and it's amazing to see the 9 v. 38 debate boiling at the same intensity of 2 decades ago. Going back to the original post, gun for the wife, either the 38 +p or 9 would be fine. Let me throw something else: If you are looking at Ruger (good) then look at their new 32 remington magnum chambering. It has better energy than both the 38 and 9 and low recoil and blast. I recommended that to my father-in-law for my mother-in-law. Within the original context, the 158g 38+p would work fine and so would the 124 g 9. I don't happen to like 9s in general, but they perform well and cannot be denied consideration.
KJS
Member
Yeah, a 158 grain bullet moving at 755 ft/sec for 200 ft/lbs of energy. Though a published review I saw of the LCR showed that such a load moved at only 590 ft/sec out of the 1.9" LCR barrel and produced I think 120 ft/lbs of energy only. Well, I'm quite sure that was the speed. You can play with energy equals mass times velocity squared to check if the calculation is right.
In any case, the LCR takes a pretty slow round & make it a really slow round.
I too have often wondered why so many think 9mm is some wimpy load barely adequte to take down a small rodent, yet the LCR is a well-reviewed gun owned by a great many people who feel it's fully sufficient to protect against big bad guys.
A few tests have shown the 158 grain to penetrate to 18+ inches in ballistics gel.
That would seem to me to be a danger of overpenetration
For my own personal CCW needs, i carry a CM9 for pocket and a M&P 45C when I dont tuck my shirt in.......
But..... I tried a LCR the other day and have been reading up on ballistics of 38
For me the CM9 is nice but is MUCH slower to draw from the pocket than the LCR
There is a Gold dot 135 g 38 +P that seems to have some punch
I may be picking up an LCR soon
That would seem to me to be a danger of overpenetration
For my own personal CCW needs, i carry a CM9 for pocket and a M&P 45C when I dont tuck my shirt in.......
But..... I tried a LCR the other day and have been reading up on ballistics of 38
For me the CM9 is nice but is MUCH slower to draw from the pocket than the LCR
There is a Gold dot 135 g 38 +P that seems to have some punch
I may be picking up an LCR soon
Old judge creek
Member
Caliber wars are the biggest waste of bandwidth on the net IMO.
Reality is that the 38 Special was the darling of Police Departments across the US for a century. It worked well for them then and will still get the job done, and then some.
Are there better stoppers out there? You betcha! I'd prefer the 45 ACP over any handgun SD caliber - period.
That said, I armed my late wife with a J Frame S&W because she could handle it and shoot it with great accuracy. As well, she could carry it (as she did on occasion) in her jacket pocket.
Many women are far better off IMO with a simple DA wheel gun. Often the movement of the slide on an auto intimidates their becoming relaxed and at ease with "their gun" as they go through the learn of process of self defense. (otherwise, I would have given my wife a Glock 19)
Is the 38 better than the 9mm? I dunno, the 9mm is a great round. Heck, Germany lost not one but TWO World Wars with the 9mm. (I am not a huge fan - couldja guess?) All kidding aside, I don't believe one truly excels over the other.
Frankly, I personally would not want to be without a J Frame 38 in my battery. Mine get more pocket use than any other handgun I own because when I go outdoors to see what the problem is, I can slip one into my pocket and it, unlike my Glock 30, is not noticeable. That's important to city dwellers. On my ranch, when I step outside to see whats the matter, I usually have either a 45 in my hands or a shotgun... thats a whole different world.
My youngest son, has a CCW for his Glock 19. He almost has me convinced that I need to add one to my battery as I get older and my hands become more arthritic. I just might do that... my point being, your choices need to factor in who will be the user and what their needs might be. No handgun or caliber is useful if you cannot shoot it well.
Reality is that the 38 Special was the darling of Police Departments across the US for a century. It worked well for them then and will still get the job done, and then some.
Are there better stoppers out there? You betcha! I'd prefer the 45 ACP over any handgun SD caliber - period.
That said, I armed my late wife with a J Frame S&W because she could handle it and shoot it with great accuracy. As well, she could carry it (as she did on occasion) in her jacket pocket.
Many women are far better off IMO with a simple DA wheel gun. Often the movement of the slide on an auto intimidates their becoming relaxed and at ease with "their gun" as they go through the learn of process of self defense. (otherwise, I would have given my wife a Glock 19)
Is the 38 better than the 9mm? I dunno, the 9mm is a great round. Heck, Germany lost not one but TWO World Wars with the 9mm. (I am not a huge fan - couldja guess?) All kidding aside, I don't believe one truly excels over the other.
Frankly, I personally would not want to be without a J Frame 38 in my battery. Mine get more pocket use than any other handgun I own because when I go outdoors to see what the problem is, I can slip one into my pocket and it, unlike my Glock 30, is not noticeable. That's important to city dwellers. On my ranch, when I step outside to see whats the matter, I usually have either a 45 in my hands or a shotgun... thats a whole different world.
My youngest son, has a CCW for his Glock 19. He almost has me convinced that I need to add one to my battery as I get older and my hands become more arthritic. I just might do that... my point being, your choices need to factor in who will be the user and what their needs might be. No handgun or caliber is useful if you cannot shoot it well.
mr.trooper
Member
Gunshots wounds will NEVER be boiled down into an equivalency. Thinking that way is to do yourself a disservice.
He meant 327 Federal. I wouldn't call that "low blast" though.
He meant 327 Federal. I wouldn't call that "low blast" though.
Ok, thanks. And agreed!
Yeah
.327 Federal Magnum may be a great cartridge, but again, we're interested in more than just the amount of energy it produces.
Also, someone said "energy equals mass times velocity squared" earlier....which is not the case. Kinetic energy = 1/2 mass x (velocity squared)
Momentum is simply mass times velocity. Which is more important? Both!
The .327, being a "fringe" cartridge, is not that interesting to me, as I MUCH prefer to stick with popular cartridges. As a hand-loader you might think that strange, but I can only load for so many calibers and I want to be able to supply my friends with practice ammo. Further, it simply is not as energetic nor does it posses the momentum of the immortal .357. AND, it operates at an insane pressure of 45,000 psi, compared to the 36,000 psi 44 mag and the 35,000 psi .357.
That creates all sorts of limitations, especially
with cast lead bullets, that do not exist with the .38 or even the 9mm. I suppose one could just use a drastically reduced load....
Nah, I'll stick with the beforementioned.
Methinks one could compare this to a 9mm vs .45 acp debate; it may be that the difference in energy (or momentum) is mitigated with proper bullet design, and the 9mm is at such a disadvantage because so many armies use 9mm FMJs (as they must by international treaty) and have limited success. For me it is clear; the 9mm is a superior cartridge, factors being equal, because of the higher pressure. And as I said, I think I'd be happy with .38 +p, and when the time comes to pick up a revolver it will probably all come down to what I can find a good deal on.
.327 Federal Magnum may be a great cartridge, but again, we're interested in more than just the amount of energy it produces.
Also, someone said "energy equals mass times velocity squared" earlier....which is not the case. Kinetic energy = 1/2 mass x (velocity squared)
Momentum is simply mass times velocity. Which is more important? Both!
The .327, being a "fringe" cartridge, is not that interesting to me, as I MUCH prefer to stick with popular cartridges. As a hand-loader you might think that strange, but I can only load for so many calibers and I want to be able to supply my friends with practice ammo. Further, it simply is not as energetic nor does it posses the momentum of the immortal .357. AND, it operates at an insane pressure of 45,000 psi, compared to the 36,000 psi 44 mag and the 35,000 psi .357.
That creates all sorts of limitations, especially
with cast lead bullets, that do not exist with the .38 or even the 9mm. I suppose one could just use a drastically reduced load....Nah, I'll stick with the beforementioned.
Methinks one could compare this to a 9mm vs .45 acp debate; it may be that the difference in energy (or momentum) is mitigated with proper bullet design, and the 9mm is at such a disadvantage because so many armies use 9mm FMJs (as they must by international treaty) and have limited success. For me it is clear; the 9mm is a superior cartridge, factors being equal, because of the higher pressure. And as I said, I think I'd be happy with .38 +p, and when the time comes to pick up a revolver it will probably all come down to what I can find a good deal on.
Martel,
One thing that makes the 9mm vs 38spl stopping power a moot point is the fact that many shooters are like your wife in that they hate the recoil of 9mm out of lcr-sized~ guns (like the pf9). My wife hated the Ruger lc9 we had (not just the recoil but the trigger too... She was right on both counts IMHO).
The problem with 9mm semi autos for recoil sensitive shooters is that youre pretty much stuck with a round putting out 300ft/lbs of energy or more (out of say, a 4" barrel which isnt far off the lc9/pf9 barrel length). Even if you can find substantially weaker ammo, you can't be sure it will cycle reliably because the recoil springs are tuned for regular power loads.
The beauty of a 38spl revolver is that because it doesn't rely on bullet energy to function, there's a HUGE energy range for ammo that functions flawlessly. For practice you can find factory Remington ammo that only makes about 170-180 ft/lbs out of a 4" barrel, and if you get the 357 you can go as high as 400++ ft/lbs of energy. And this doesn't take into consideration the infinite possibilities available from reloaders making lighter rounds.
You customize the recoil to a level you're comfortable with, and practice with and carry that ammo. That Remington target stuff is nowhere near 9pm power, but it's still strong enough to make a deep (fatal) hole in an attacker. A weak bullet that you practice with and can actually get on target is ALWAYS better than one you're afraid to shoot or hate to shoot.
And when she gets used to firing the low power stuff like a champ, move her up to regular power or even plus p. Maybe one day shell be shooting 357 out of it
Btw I would recommend getting the 357 one... The extra weight of the gun makes it recoil a little softer and IMHO just feels better in the hand. It also means your ammo choices are that much more unlimited.
One thing that makes the 9mm vs 38spl stopping power a moot point is the fact that many shooters are like your wife in that they hate the recoil of 9mm out of lcr-sized~ guns (like the pf9). My wife hated the Ruger lc9 we had (not just the recoil but the trigger too... She was right on both counts IMHO).
The problem with 9mm semi autos for recoil sensitive shooters is that youre pretty much stuck with a round putting out 300ft/lbs of energy or more (out of say, a 4" barrel which isnt far off the lc9/pf9 barrel length). Even if you can find substantially weaker ammo, you can't be sure it will cycle reliably because the recoil springs are tuned for regular power loads.
The beauty of a 38spl revolver is that because it doesn't rely on bullet energy to function, there's a HUGE energy range for ammo that functions flawlessly. For practice you can find factory Remington ammo that only makes about 170-180 ft/lbs out of a 4" barrel, and if you get the 357 you can go as high as 400++ ft/lbs of energy. And this doesn't take into consideration the infinite possibilities available from reloaders making lighter rounds.
You customize the recoil to a level you're comfortable with, and practice with and carry that ammo. That Remington target stuff is nowhere near 9pm power, but it's still strong enough to make a deep (fatal) hole in an attacker. A weak bullet that you practice with and can actually get on target is ALWAYS better than one you're afraid to shoot or hate to shoot.
And when she gets used to firing the low power stuff like a champ, move her up to regular power or even plus p. Maybe one day shell be shooting 357 out of it
Btw I would recommend getting the 357 one... The extra weight of the gun makes it recoil a little softer and IMHO just feels better in the hand. It also means your ammo choices are that much more unlimited.
R.W.Dale
Member
One of the main reasons I'm such a proponent of a 9mm revolver jives with pooches post. Most of what we precive as recoil from a 357 snubby is the overwhelming flash and muzzle blast 357 produces in a short bbl.
9mm in a snubby even though you get 7/8ths of the performance of a 357 feels much more like a 38 because you don't get that obnoxious blast and flash. Getting practice ammunition for $10per 50 doesn't hurt either.
I really lament there not being more choices in 9mm wheelguns. If ruger came out with a 9mm lcr I would buy one TOMORROW!
9mm in a snubby even though you get 7/8ths of the performance of a 357 feels much more like a 38 because you don't get that obnoxious blast and flash. Getting practice ammunition for $10per 50 doesn't hurt either.
I really lament there not being more choices in 9mm wheelguns. If ruger came out with a 9mm lcr I would buy one TOMORROW!
wankerjake
Member
I'd buy an SP101 in 9mm tomorrow
Deaf Smith
Member
Ask yourselves this guys...
Will a bad guy, being shot, be able to tell the difference between a 127gr +p+ JHP Winchester T series 9mm at 1240 fps (I chronoed from my Glock 26), and a 158gr LSWHP Buffalo Bore .38 Spl. at 1100 fps from a Ruger Speed Six (I again, chronoed from MY Speed Six)??
I think not!
As long as your gun is reasonable powerful, it is YOU and how well YOU can shoot that makes the difference. And it's not how many shots your gun holds, it's how well you can place 'em that matters.
So get out and practice and not worry so much about 9mm .vs. .38 or .40 .vs. .357 , or such.
Deaf
Will a bad guy, being shot, be able to tell the difference between a 127gr +p+ JHP Winchester T series 9mm at 1240 fps (I chronoed from my Glock 26), and a 158gr LSWHP Buffalo Bore .38 Spl. at 1100 fps from a Ruger Speed Six (I again, chronoed from MY Speed Six)??
I think not!
As long as your gun is reasonable powerful, it is YOU and how well YOU can shoot that makes the difference. And it's not how many shots your gun holds, it's how well you can place 'em that matters.
So get out and practice and not worry so much about 9mm .vs. .38 or .40 .vs. .357 , or such.
Deaf
R.W.Dale
Member
I'd buy an SP101 in 9mm tomorrow
I probably would too.
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