38 special vs. 44 special

which do you think is better?

  • .38 special

    Votes: 65 28.9%
  • .44 special

    Votes: 110 48.9%
  • neither, give me my 1911

    Votes: 50 22.2%

  • Total voters
    225
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
That's EIGHT HUNDREDTHS OF AN INCH!!
Not to nitpick, but it's only about 7 hundredths, since the .44 Spl is actually only about a .43 caliber. But I understand your argument, because I've made a similar one myself. It's not really a lot of extra surface area to get excited about between the two calibers, only about 4 hundredths of a square inch.

I recognize that modern .38 Specials can give performance approaching that of the .357 Magnum. (FWIW the FBI actually preferred the .38 Spl. over the .357 Magnum, citing few appreciable differences.) If I owned a handgun in .38 Special caliber, my prejudices about it would probably disappear.
:evil:
:D
 
I certainly agree that shot placement is your number one stopper. Heck, even a .22 kills in the right spot. Problem is, on a moving target and under severe stress, perfect shot placement is difficult. So, ballistics then, is the next best man stopper.

The facts given on size/diameter are all true, but it is energy displacement that stops a target. The most energy displaced within a target WITHOUT GOING THROUGH, defines the best performance for a self-defense shot. Just looking at the small size/caliber difference in two cartridges is not realistic/accurate when looking at target-stopping ballistics. Much more goes into the equation to reach energy displacement goals than size. Charge, angle, AND impact diameter work together to get the desired results. And, what is most important is realizing that it doesn't take a whole lot of difference at that precise moment of impact to make drastic differences in results. A .22 short will bounce off a groundhog but a .22 mag will destroy it into pieces.

It is like making adjustments on an artilliary piece. The movement of the gun longetudinally may be inches, but the impact result of the shell can be changed thousands of feet by just those couple of inch adjustments.

So, the size/diameter differences may be very small between a .44 special and a .38 special. But, I'll take that small difference where it counts and go with the .44 for a better result ballistically, that is if I cannot be exact in shot placement.
 
Where exactly is the better ballistic result? Tests show that the "smaller" .38spl penetrates deeper with a similar sized expanded bullet. If the energy advantage of the .44 was applicable, shouldn't it then push the similar sized expanded slug deeper?

If not then, the implication is that the surplus energy has been transferred into the target. I understand the rationale: Its like pressing your open hand slowly down through the surface of a body of water - there is little resistance or disturbance and you can press as deep as you can reach; as opposed to slapping through the surface as fast and hard as possible. Big impact, big splash - much more "energy transfer", if you will.

The problem with that analogy for the purpose of this comparison is that when slapping your hand through the water, you'll feel the difference too. It will hurt a lot more, meaning that the harder impact affects the projectile (hand) as well. This is what results in the deformation or expansion of the bullet. If the bullet resists expansion or deformation due to it's hardness (or a more slippery shape), that energy still has to go somewhere should result therefore in deeper penetration. The .44 expanded very slightly more (proportionately way less, actually) and penetrated a lot less than the .38. Why??

By your argument, the .44 "hits harder" - transferring more of that energy into the target. But we know that even a .44 magnum cannot impart enough energy into a human target to throw it backwards. That's simply because of the difference in mass between bullet and target - even when you factor in the kinetic energy of the relatively tiny projectile. Another factor that limits the real world effect of the largely mythical "energy dump" into the target is the relative softness of the human body and the small frontal area of the bullet. Like poking a pin into a marshmallow, no matter how hard you do it, the hole will still be the same size and the amount of damage will hardly change.

Modern expanding bullets create a parachute effect that results in a bigger hole and more energy absorbed by the target *AND THE BULLET* but at handgun velocities, the effect is simply not significant enough to be deservedly referred to as "stopping power".

As far as the 11% (?) greater surface area of the .44 goes, my calculations show that the hole made by the .38 FBI round - .636" X 15.6" deep is actually a bigger hole than the .671" X 13.75" deep .44spl hole. (4.95 cu.in. vs. 4.86 cu.in. - talk about splitting hairs!:D) That is assuming all 15.6" of the .38's hole remains inside the target. If it doesn't, as was pointed out, there's going to be an exit hole.

The point of all this? It just leads me to maintain that within a reasonable range of mainstream handgun calibers, the differences in bullet size and kinetic energy relative to terminal ballistic performance in a personal defense scenario are miniscule, subjective and more pertinent to bragging rights and arguments than real world effectiveness.

More powerful rounds can penetrate hard barriers more effectively but that capability does not make them significantly more effective at "stopping" a living, hostile, 180lb-plus aggressor. Once you have 12" or more of penetration and anything thicker than an ice pick, adding more in factors of a few hundredths of an inch will make little difference.

Carry what floats your boat, learn to use it well and never assume that the caliber of your handgun by some potent "over .40" magic will make you any safer or more lethal than the guy with a .38 Special (let alone a .38 Super:D).
 
Last edited:
this one puts me on the fence...I am a big fan of medium bore calibers (.38 spl, .38 spl +p, and .357 mag up front with 9mm & 9mm +p bringing up a close 2nd place) and the majority of my handguns encompass those calibers; I am starting to dabble in the .44 family a bit & see the potential of the .44 spl as a defensive load; out of my big S&W 629 PowerPort, the cowboy loads & various defensive hollowpoint loads are nice & serene to shoot;

my friend inherited his grandpa's Magna-Ported Ruger Super Redhawk & a bunch of reloaded ammo; among the handloads were some Elmer Keith replicas; he was working part time at a golf course & was asked to dispatch a wounded deer that crossed the road and fell on the greens after being hit by a car; he took a head shot & described the entry hole as typical and the exit hole @ 1.75" diameter (bullet & skull fragments exiting); made me stand up & respect the potential of the .44 spl

I'm still on the fence...38 spl +p for CCW & intermittent HD; .357 mag for walking the hunting grounds; 9mm for HD & car; .44 mag for hunting; .44 spl fo intermittent HD & sleepovers at hunting camp...I guess that I like them both :evil:
 
I do need to get back to work :barf:; but, if you are comparing .38 FBI loads to a simple .44 Special load, no wonder your results are so close.;)

There is no magic standard handgun bullet except for a perfect placement hit, whether it is a .22 or a .45. So, I certainly agree with you 100% on that.:D AND, ballistics has been debated for many years and no one was ever happy,:banghead: hence the numerous calibers we have currently and the new ones popping-up every so often. But, comparing a simple .38 load with a simple .44 load with the same bullet design on the same target, the .44 unloads more energy displacement. It has to, it's bigger with more propellant. If you want to use an FBI load on the .38 for comparison, then use a major load (no FBI load that I am aware of for the .44 special) on the .44. A true comparison should be apples to apples, shouldn't it?

I have learned from your discussion that we now have very effective .38 loads for self-defense that closely resemble the .44. But, they had to beef them up to get there, didn't they?
 
Great White Hunter John “Pondoro” Taylor suggested the Taylor Knockdown formula (TKO), sometimes called “Taylor Index”, which integrates calibre and momentum to generate a relative value that is a guide to the potential of a round to incapacite a target.


TKO value = [ Weight (gr) x Terminal Velocity (fps) x calibre (in) ] ÷ 7000

This obviously does not take into account any factors such a bullet shape, construction, design or tendency to tumble, mushroom or fragment. In this respect the basic TKO offers a indication of the minimal performance one could expect from a round. It is, however, still a useful tool for comparing loads and gaining some idea how a round may perform if it fails to mushroom. I don't think the TKO is exact enough to let you say that, for example, a round with a TKO of 15 has twice the likelihood of stopping someone as a round with a TKO of 7, but a load with a higher TKO will usually be a better choice for defensive applications.

158X900X.357 DIVIDED BY 7000 = 7.25
240X900X.430 DIVIDED BY 7000 = 13.27

Give me a .44 special over a .38 with comparable bullet type any day.
 
I'm not really sure why anyone even feels this is up for debate.

It's easier to pack 5 .38s into a package that can be easily carried and concealed than it is to pack 5 .44s. That's why there's a 642 in my pocket today.

The rule of thumb for defensive pieces, is to carry as much gun as you can handle and conceal. Since I don't have to worry about concealing it, the handgun in my between-seats console in my car is a .44 special.

More is, um, more. Duh.

John
 
"which caliber is better in a revolver designed for combat? and for what reason?"
This was the orginial question, which is why I picked the .44, it mentioned nothing regarding concealment.

"It's easier to pack 5 .38s into a package that can be easily carried and concealed than it is to pack 5 .44s. That's why there's a 642 in my pocket today."

There is no argument that a j frame 5 shot .38 is easier to carry concealed that a 5 shot L frame or Bulldog .44 spl.
 
Yep. So, if you can reasonably carry more, do so.

OTOH, if one were choosing between 6 .357 Mag rounds and 5 .44 Special rounds, that would be a harder choice. In that case, I'd go with the .357 if hunting, and the .44 if defense was my mission.

John
 
Not to prolong the debate (it is an interesting topic, though, if we can remain calm and objective), but TKO values and other measurements of "stopping power" in handguns look good on paper to show how much more powerful one round is vs. another. It tells you how hard the projectile will smack a hard target like a bowling pin or a steel plate. Living targets are soft and tissue is quite elastic, so while some of these differences look good on paper, they make little difference in the actual impact on an assailant.

No handgun round can knock a man off his feet by sheer force of impact!

While some sissies will collapse at the slightest graze or flesh wound, the only real way to physically stop an attacker instantly is with a CNS hit. Once your caliber is capable of that, nothing bigger or faster (handgun-wise, of course) will make much difference - the rest is all up to you. Failing a hit to the CNS, the other variables like bullet sectional density, shot placement, physiology of the assailant and the speed/accuracy of your follow-up shots have a far, far greater impact on the outcome of the encounter.

This is not as simplistic as repeating the old "a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .45". The point I am making is that the differences in size, velocity and kinetic energy of the rounds being discussed are far more impressive on paper and in our minds than in real world terminal effectiveness against human assailants.

More is more, yes - but more of what and how much more? The Remington 158gr. FBI round is not the hottest +P load available for the .38spl, yet it still out performs the 200gr. .44 in ballistic gel. Superior sectional density, maybe?
 
TKO values

As originally used by John "Pondoro" Taylor, these were actually intended to apply to the potential knockout of a big/dangerous game cartridge against big/dangerous game. If you try to use TKO for any other applications, you find that it "goes South" very quickly. Namely the suitability of different cartridges for lesser game, plus the fact that a 5-ounce (2200 grain), 2 3/4 inch baseball thrown at 100 mph (147 fps) trumps just about every cartridge you can come up with. :eek:
 
Last edited:
I'm not really sure why anyone even feels this is up for debate.

It's easier to pack 5 .38s into a package that can be easily carried and concealed than it is to pack 5 .44s. That's why there's a 642 in my pocket today.

very true but thats not what is under debate but rather which of the guns would be more effective in your hand should the need to use it arise.
 
The Remington 158gr. FBI round is not the hottest +P load available for the .38spl, yet it still out performs the 200gr. .44 in ballistic gel.
actually the remmi +p load is one of the best performing 38 loads in jello.and do I get to use +p 44 specials.
 
when jello is drafted into combat i will vote for the .38. otherwise i vote 1911 for the properly trained. than either 44spc or 357-- facts support both. it comes down to preference. though if combat means dressed for battle type clothing, i may go for the penetration of the 357.
 
actually the remmi +p load is one of the best performing 38 loads in jello.and do I get to use +p 44 specials.

My point exactly. It is not the hottest, doesn't pack the most kinetic energy, yet it expands well and goes deep in the dessert. Deeper than many bigger, faster, hotter rounds out of some .40+ caliber guns. Don't have figures for .44sp +P but if you need more oomph and size to stack up against the FBI .38spl, here again are the results for 200gr. +P Gold Dots out of the "untouchable" .45ACP:

Cartridge : .45ACP Speer Gold Dot 200gr +P (Load # 23969)

Firearm : Recoil-operated semi-auto with 3.8" barrel length.

Calibration : '591' ± 0.500 ft/sec at 8.7 ± 0.05cm BB penetration.

Velocities not recorded due to failing light (chronograph malfunctioned on calibration shot).

Shot 1 penetrated to 12.3 ± 0.031” and expanded to 0.668 ± 0.0005”

Shot 2 penetrated to 12.4 ± 0.031” and expanded to 0.665 ± 0.0005”

Shot 3 penetrated to 12.1 ± 0.031” and expanded to 0.659 ± 0.0005”

Shot 4 penetrated to 12.3 ± 0.031” and expanded to 0.667 ± 0.0005”

Shot 5 penetrated to 13.0 ± 0.031” and expanded to 0.661 ± 0.0005”

I'll remind you that the humble little .38 expanded to .636" and penetrated 15.6"
 
Claude, if you mix the lemon and banana and grape jellos just right, you can get a nice "jungle camo" look that ought to make it more "palatable" for use in ballistic testing. Tastes great too!
 
Last edited:
the only real way to physically stop an attacker instantly is with a CNS hit

Well, that's true, but let's just go the distance.

There are three ways to stop any machine. There are:

Structural failure
Hydraulic failure
Electrical failure

Relating these to humans, you can break stuff till they can't move, poke holes till there's more red out than in, or turn out the lights. Turning out the lights can be hard, because the head is armored and will probably be moving, so mostly we try to poke big holes and break stuff.

Mr. Ocelot, what the OP actually said was "which caliber is better in a revolver designed for combat? and for what reason?"

To which I replied (if you look at my original post) that the .38 was easier to conceal, but if concealment wasn't an issue, the .44 was better at stopping people. Y'all let me know if you need additional clarification.

John
 
I carry and shoot both. I trust either to save my bacon.

Both are plenty effective, as long as I can place my shots. I've never seen any research on the (dubious) study of "stopping power" that leads me to believe I wouldn't be protected with either.

That said, the .44spl is FUN to shoot out of a steel frame, and I find it just a hair more accurate (though not enough to make a difference in combat) than the .38. It's got an entertaining "thump" without being abusive, and muzzle rise is negligible.

Oh, and it costs roughly twice what .38 does for practice ammo :eek:

Also, bear in mind that in smaller and lighter guns, the .44 can get a little fierce, more so than the .38.

If I have the option of carrying a medium-to-full size framed gun, I'll go with .44. If I need something concealable, I'll stick with the .38.

I'll stir the pot by noting that .44spl and .38S&W were Elmer Keith's favorite cartridges.
 
In similar sized guns, it comes down to 6 38's VS 5 44's. Gun weight and handling qualities are pretty much the same. I carry Gold Dots in both guns, both have 3" barrels. My philosophy is pretty basic......I think bullet placement matters more than anything else, but I also know in a "Dynamic Critical Incident" :what: my fine motor control is going to leap out a window and leave me behind. Based on that, I'll take a bullet with a little more thump. I have a little more confidence in it, and sometimes that's enough.

BTW, for practice, I'm using a 200-grain Laser-Cast .431 over a full case of Trail Boss, and it's PERFECT. I never have/never will play Cowboy Games, but this powder is perfect for the low-pressure big-bores. It's accurate, hits hard, and yet it's still mild enough (in my Rossi 720, seen here with my other carry revolver, a Smith 65-5) to shoot all day. 44SplWithM-65.gif

I like them both, though carrying the Rossi in summer is going to be tough, it's a bit bigger. I bet I carry it anyway!

Papajohn
 
My philosophy is pretty basic......I think bullet placement matters more than anything else ...
Ah, grasshoppa, you speak wisdom.

(And are also obviously working da' night shift again in coastal MO. ;) )
 
I knew (he is dead now) "a legend of a LEO", he switched to the 44 spl and reloaded his own stuff (was in many shootings while a LEO) He really preferred the 44 spl to the 38.

The 44 spl is/was what brought the 44 mag around because of the hot loads that were made up for them in the big double action revolvers back then.

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/fabulous_44_mag/index.html

Elmer Keith was on the leading edge and a person that impressed "A legend of a LEO" The little short barreled light guns are hard to hold onto and don't last long with the stuff he was shooting ;)

So back to the 44 spl vs the 38 in the short barreled hide outs. I still think the 44 has the advantage. Good discussion thanks.

:)
 
JShirley said:
The rule of thumb for defensive pieces,
is to carry as much gun as you can handle and conceal.
That's it, right there.
End of story. Nuff said.

PapaJohn said:
I thought you were goin' ta bed, Mr Desert Biologist...................
That's Dr. Desert Biologist to you, Dr. PJ. :neener:

And, yes, bed cometh within minutes, .38 spl near the pillow ... :cool:
 
There once was a true story published in a magazine, about a NY cop, who shot a bad guy with his service 38, and was himself shot by the bad guy's 9mm. He recanted how he vividly remembered laying on the floor and the bad guy stepping right on him as he walked down the aisle and exited the convenience store. He couldn't believe it - he knew he had hit the bad guy.
It turns out he was right. He killed the bad guy with 3 hits right in the chest, and 2 others in shoulder and lower abdomen if I recall, and his partner had also hit the bad guy like twice, and the guy dropped dead... after walking out of the store, across the street and about 200 yards further. He was full of drugs. Both cops lived and praised bulletproof gear.
And said they never felt safe carrying 38s again.
The U.S. Army had some similar experiences with the Moros in the Phillipines. They found the 45 Colt to be an answer. The 44 Spl is a whole lot closer to the Colt than the 38 is.
Certainly there are more effective rounds than the old round nose 38 police load. But like they say in football, a very very good big guy, is going to beat a very very good little guy.
Me, I just like throwing something bigger. Even thought the odds are real heavy I will never have to face down anything more intimidating than a feral cat or maybe a coyote. In fact I hope I don't.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top