Leon tP
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.380 ACP the Red Haired Stepchild?
- Thread starter Brubz
- Start date
I'm going to propose that they do not suck equally.
22lr, 25 acp, 32 acp - maximum suckage. CDW4ME rating: "Why do you hate yourself"
380 - sucks less than prior three. CDW4ME rating: "Better than nothing"
9mm/40 HP - Police carry it, meets 12'' penetration and expansion. CDW4ME rating: Minimal suckage, acceptable carry.
10mm / 45 acp HP - CDW4ME rating: You want to argue that a 180 Gold Dot at over 1,200 fps "sucks"? I think not.
WisBorn
Contributing Member
To stop a man? Or stop a man from attacking?
When looking at the data. The 380 and up have good results with stopping attacks.
To stop a man instantly. That takes a shot to the central nervous system.
To stop a man quickly then it is about tissue damage. The 10mm, 45acp 357mag are better than the 9mm or 40. But not as good as the 41mag or 44mag.
So now it's about personal choice. I want a small handgun I can put in my front pocket of my gym or golf shorts- 380 fits!
Front pocket of jeans or cargos 38 j frame or micro 9mm
OWB covered by a jacket or hooded sweatshirt- 45acp or 10mm.
Open carry wilderness hiking out west- 41mag or 44mag.
There are positives and negatives for all.
I do know that I will not carry AIWB because of my beer gut and I am not pointing a gun at my junk
Remember tissue damage!And the rules of firearm safety. NEVER POINT A GUN AT ANYTHING THAT YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY.
OP
OP
Brubz
Member
Lol, you have invented a new scale! Suckableness
WrongHanded
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I'm glad you posted this, because it highlights some very important points with such statistical analysis. The biggest issue I have with the Ellifritz study (in contrast to the M&S one shot stop data) is the way cartridges are grouped or categorized.
For example, "9mm" comprises not just a collection of various JHP loads, but also FMJ. There's no distinction between bullet performance. It would have made more sense to at the very least only use data points where the exact cartridge used was known, and where that cartridge met a certain criteria minimum (the FBI expansion and penetration requirements would be the obvious criteria).
By contrast, my understanding of the M&S data is that they categorized data not just by cartridge, but by specific load. And in that way could separate the poor performers in a single cartridge, from the good ones. Because we all know that some loads will work better than others. E.g. a 125gr JHP .357 Magnum will typically outperform a 158gr FMJ .357 Magnum. Just as a 124gr JHP 9mm will typically outperform a 115gr FMJ 9mm. In fact this is the entire reason for expanding bullets, and the wide range of load options in any cartridge designation.
Basically, I think the Ellifritz data, whilst well meaning, is useless for any practical analysis whatsoever.
So do I.
There is something missing from "the data" where 32 acp has better incapacitation than 45 acp and 380 has "good results".
As I said before, saying 380 has whatever % stops versus 9mm or 45 is missing something ... How quickly.
If a "stop" in 10 seconds or less (a time cutoff is not specified in that data), significant difference in 4 seconds versus 10 and that is missing.
trackskippy
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I think what obviously (to me anyway) seems to be lost here on a lot of people is, all the paper numbers are just that, paper numbers and basically meaningless, if you cant, on demand, place the rounds where they need to go to make things work, if and when its your turn in the barrel. What happend to 10000 people in the past, has no bearing on what you actually get. And YOU have to deal with what you get, and whatever that may be. Theres no calling "not fair" because it wasnt something you werent expecting or prepared for.
What I do find funny too is, I really cant ever remember seeing most people practicing in any kind of realistic fashion, even with full size handguns, let alone, the second and third line back ups. So where is everyone getting the skills needed to make things work?
Ive shot on a LOT of different ranges, and different courses of fire in the past, and still regularly shoot a couple of times a week, albeit, on a basically private range these days, but still, when I do see them shoot, I dont see people shooting anything much beyond static, bullseye type shooting. Yet, you keep hearing how these little guns, carried in a pocket, etc, that are about the worst choice to try and fight for your life with, are more than capable and acceptable for the task. Really makes you go hmmm.
And what people are basing things on is really a puzzle too, since they dont seem to really take things seriously enough to practice with them in any kind of realistic manner, to at least make up for any deficiencies in their choices and skills.
It just seems to me, its more important to read some articles and argue on the internet about "numbers", and base your whole thinking and theory on what some half assed study says is the best caliber for the job, with this or that percentage of "something", than being as knowledgeable as possible about what it is youre actually trying to do and accomplish, and proficient as possible to accomplish that, with what it is you choose to carry.
Or is that just too "deep", and should I shut up?
What I do find funny too is, I really cant ever remember seeing most people practicing in any kind of realistic fashion, even with full size handguns, let alone, the second and third line back ups. So where is everyone getting the skills needed to make things work?
Ive shot on a LOT of different ranges, and different courses of fire in the past, and still regularly shoot a couple of times a week, albeit, on a basically private range these days, but still, when I do see them shoot, I dont see people shooting anything much beyond static, bullseye type shooting. Yet, you keep hearing how these little guns, carried in a pocket, etc, that are about the worst choice to try and fight for your life with, are more than capable and acceptable for the task. Really makes you go hmmm.
And what people are basing things on is really a puzzle too, since they dont seem to really take things seriously enough to practice with them in any kind of realistic manner, to at least make up for any deficiencies in their choices and skills.
It just seems to me, its more important to read some articles and argue on the internet about "numbers", and base your whole thinking and theory on what some half assed study says is the best caliber for the job, with this or that percentage of "something", than being as knowledgeable as possible about what it is youre actually trying to do and accomplish, and proficient as possible to accomplish that, with what it is you choose to carry.
Or is that just too "deep", and should I shut up?
dogtown tom
Member
Oh my.
WrongHanded
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I think what obviously (to me anyway) seems to be lost here on a lot of people is, all the paper numbers are just that, paper numbers and basically meaningless, if you cant, on demand, place the rounds where they need to go to make things work, if and when its your turn in the barrel. What happend to 10000 people in the past, has no bearing on what you actually get. And YOU have to deal with what you get, and whatever that may be. Theres no calling "not fair" because it wasnt something you werent expecting or prepared for.
What I do find funny too is, I really cant ever remember seeing most people practicing in any kind of realistic fashion, even with full size handguns, let alone, the second and third line back ups. So where is everyone getting the skills needed to make things work?
Ive shot on a LOT of different ranges, and different courses of fire in the past, and still regularly shoot a couple of times a week, albeit, on a basically private range these days, but still, when I do see them shoot, I dont see people shooting anything much beyond static, bullseye type shooting. Yet, you keep hearing how these little guns, carried in a pocket, etc, that are about the worst choice to try and fight for your life with, are more than capable and acceptable for the task. Really makes you go hmmm.
And what people are basing things on is really a puzzle too, since they dont seem to really take things seriously enough to practice with them in any kind of realistic manner, to at least make up for any deficiencies in their choices and skills.
It just seems to me, its more important to read some articles and argue on the internet about "numbers", and base your whole thinking and theory on what some half assed study says is the best caliber for the job, with this or that percentage of "something", than being as knowledgeable as possible about what it is youre actually trying to do and accomplish, and proficient as possible to accomplish that, with what it is you choose to carry.
Or is that just too "deep", and should I shut up?
Practicing with what you have so that you can make solid hits quickly in a real world scenario is really important stuff. And you're right that it's more important than the particular gun, cartridge, or load. But it's not the topic of discussion.
I see this happen a lot. A discussion on cartridge efficacy vs other options, frequently veers off to talk about how "only hits matter", and "a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .45". But we all know that already.
Further more, just because one person cannot handle a powerful cartridge easily and so cannot shoot it well, does not mean a less powerful cartridge is objectively better. It only means that the less powerful and therefore lower recoiling cartridge is better for them. It's intellectually dishonest to argue that because you (whomever) can shoot X the best, that X is the best option for everyone.
Further than that, if one thinks all a handgun bullet can do is crush the tissue directly in front of it. Just carry the weakest smallest cartridge/load that will penetrate between 12-18" in ballistic gel, and be done with it. Under the crush only concept, bullet expansion is simply a matter of increasing a tiny bullet by a tiny amount, which is insignificant if all you're doing is poking holes. The FBI requirements on expansion are arbitrary, as 150% of a 9mm is 0.533", but 150% of a .45acp is 0.678". Why must a .45acp need a minimum expansion 0.145" greater than that of a 9mm to be acceptable? Why can a 9mm be that much smaller in expanded diameter than a .45acp and still be acceptable? As I said, it's arbitrary.
So if you really think a .380acp is objectively just as good as anything else, just carry it.
trackskippy
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The problem with threads like this is, you cant argue one part, without arguing the other factors. Not if youre being realistic anyway. And personally, I really dont think a lot of people are.
If you argue the numbers, then its a no-brainer, assuming youre actually arguing actual scientifically collected "data" as far as the differences between the rounds are. And thats pretty straightforward, as those things can be measured and stated. And no matter what you say, the numbers as far as power, etc, are what they are, and dont lie. So a 22, 32, 380, etc, are what they are, just like a 38, 9mm, 45, ect. So, there really in no argument there, unless you just want to argue, and claim everything you say is true, the facts be damned. Sorta sounds like the past 6-8 years of life in the US when you come to think of it.
What they do once you remove them from the paper world, and they encounter living tissue, while sort of predictable, is still pretty much anyones guess, as there are just too many variables to say. The exact same hit on two different subjects, can bring about totally different results.
If we all know only good hits matter, then why argue over which caliber is better? Other than just to have something to argue about?
Either a lot of people are just being obtuse, and hopefully not serious either, but what is one without the other? You need both or even multiples of things, for things to work. Unless you consider hope and luck to be a realistic part of all this too, which I often have to wonder, isnt the case .
So yea, carry what ever magic bullet you think is best. Its all up to you, not to let it down, and prove the numbers your betting on, all wrong.
If you argue the numbers, then its a no-brainer, assuming youre actually arguing actual scientifically collected "data" as far as the differences between the rounds are. And thats pretty straightforward, as those things can be measured and stated. And no matter what you say, the numbers as far as power, etc, are what they are, and dont lie. So a 22, 32, 380, etc, are what they are, just like a 38, 9mm, 45, ect. So, there really in no argument there, unless you just want to argue, and claim everything you say is true, the facts be damned. Sorta sounds like the past 6-8 years of life in the US when you come to think of it.
What they do once you remove them from the paper world, and they encounter living tissue, while sort of predictable, is still pretty much anyones guess, as there are just too many variables to say. The exact same hit on two different subjects, can bring about totally different results.
If we all know only good hits matter, then why argue over which caliber is better? Other than just to have something to argue about?
Either a lot of people are just being obtuse, and hopefully not serious either, but what is one without the other? You need both or even multiples of things, for things to work. Unless you consider hope and luck to be a realistic part of all this too, which I often have to wonder, isnt the case .
So yea, carry what ever magic bullet you think is best. Its all up to you, not to let it down, and prove the numbers your betting on, all wrong.
I follow the law. I just don't go by many rules!
I know a few people who have been shot by 7.62x39, so it isn’t “apples to apples” with 380. They said the first hit was more of “That BURNS! ***?!” Followed a moment later by “Crap. I think I’ve been shot”
I expect a similar reaction to handgun rounds.
WrongHanded
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So I just saw this and I have a question.
If you ended up in a gunfight and got shot, would you think "I've been shot", and just give up?
Not only do I not expect an attacker to stop shooting me if I give up or try to run, but I also don't expect that all civilian defenders would have the situational awareness and psychological control (given the situation) to stop shooting either.
Hey, if you get unlucky enough to end up in a gunfight, maybe you'll get lucky with your opponent and they'll flee or give up if you get just one single hit. Or maybe you'll end up facing a guy with the mentality of Michael Lee Platt.
Leon tP
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Or a guy like Emil Mătăsăreanu.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout
Yeah, I don't want to rely on the badguy quitting, it's just not dependable. If he quits great, done deal, but I'm dang sure gonna be ready if he doesn't.
orionengnr
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Seven pages in, and we still have not defined our most basic terms.
"Red-headed step child" is the actual term.
Pretty un-impressive so far.
Continue, in somewhat more factual terms.
Please.
"Red-headed step child" is the actual term.
Pretty un-impressive so far.
Continue, in somewhat more factual terms.
Please.
S&W-Keeper
Member
The .380 is better than a rock.Everybody has one,but nobody admits to having them.I have 2 a Sig P230,and a Ruger LCP.
Pistolay
Contributing Member
If the .380 ACP offering comes with a locked breech action and the barrel is long enough, as in my Beretta Cheetah 85 FS, I wouldn't mind carrying one if needed. But for single stack pocket carry I prefer 9mm, like my Walther PPS M2.
.308 Norma
Member
Not "everybody." I don't.
My wife does. She has a .380 Smith Shield EZ because the same gun in 9mm is too rough on her arthritic right thumb joint. And yes, she did try our daughter's 9mm Smith Shield EZ - it "kicks too danged hard" she said.
On the other hand (no pun intended) my wife loves her 9mm Sig P239. But her Sig P239, even though it's called a "compact," is larger, heavier and harder for my "compact" 5'1" 120lb wife to conceal on her person.
The problem is in the interpretation.
What the data is telling us is that there is at least one more factor that is affecting outcomes more significantly than terminal effect differences. And it's telling us in such a way that it takes supreme effort to ignore it and still keep focusing on terminal effect as the end-all, be-all when it comes to self-defense effectiveness.
WheelGunMan
Member
I have a few.. a Firestorm, LCP, LCP Max and a Kimber Micro.
OP
OP
Brubz
Member
A Ruger LCPII and a S&W M&P Bodyguard
Terry G
Member
I just use FMJ in my LCPII. That short barrel does not instill confidence in hollow point ammunition opening up, I also have had feeding problems with Hornady .380 feeding. It's a BUG, nothing else.
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