.380 ACP = .38 Spl = 9mm in performance?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I am not comfortable with small semi autos for self defense. So, given that my choice will be a revolver I chose this ammo:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Buffalo...r standard pressure Hard Cast Wad Cutter.html

If you read McPherson's work you will find that a flat nosed bullet at more than 800fps causes more damage than a 45ACP round nose at 800-850fps.

Since expansion is "ify" with 380 and 9mm is only commonly available in autos I chose a revolver loaded with ammo that doesn't have to expand and will perform as well as 9mm HP out of a reliable revolver for SD use in this class of firearm.

Comparing anything less than the best available ammo out of any caliber in a comparison is meaningless.

Over penetration for a citizen in legal self defense is almost a non issue. Of more concern should be rounds that miss. If I have an inadequate round I will have to shoot more generating more of a risk of misses.
 
Last edited:
Geeze guys...don't you all realize that gun magazines, talk shows, television, etc are all driven by advertising dollars, promotional fees, bonuses and kickbacks?

Come on...use your brains. All this shows is that Hornady has the cash to get premium exposure for it's premium ammo.

A good friend of mine makes knives...lots of knives and very high quality ones at that. The TV show "How It's Made" was there to set up a show with him...right up to the point of telling him how much their fee was. He told them to walk at that point.

Yes...everyone featured on that show has to pay a hefty promotional fee.

Knives, guns, ammo...it all works the same way. Whoever pays the most gets the most attention and with guaranteed positive results to boot.

Believe what you see with your own eyes and can work out with simple math...don't drink the purple kool-aide.

:banghead:
 
It's all just "tinkling" in the wind, so to speak. Shot placement is king (it seems I've heard that somewhere before). Or, carry a long gun.:evil:

Yep, caliber doesn't matter, it's all about the type of firearm. I'll take the true one-shot stopping power of a Ruger 10/22 .22 LR rifle over a shot-placement-dependent S&W 627 .357 Magnum revolver for home defense any day of the week! :scrutiny:

I am not comfortable with small semi autos for self defense. So, given that my choice will be a revolver I chose this ammo:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Buffalo...r standard pressure Hard Cast Wad Cutter.html

If you read McPherson's work you will find that a flat nosed bullet at more than 800fps causes more damage than a 45ACP round nose at 800-850fps.

Since expansion is "ify" with 380

One of the points being made was that expansion is now quite reliable with .380, though. Unfortunately, penetration seems to be lacking at under 12".

and 9mm is only commonly available in autos I chose a revolver loaded with ammo that doesn't have to expand and will perform as well as 9mm HP out of a reliable revolver for SD use in this class of firearm.

A 9mm JHP with adequate penetration should still expand to over .5", however, producing a wider permanent cavity (unless you're saying that the flatter nose and sharper edges of the round that you referenced above completely makes up for the difference in diameter).

Comparing anything less than the best available ammo out of any caliber in a comparison is meaningless.

Exactly.

Geeze guys...don't you all realize that gun magazines, talk shows, television, etc are all driven by advertising dollars, promotional fees, bonuses and kickbacks?

Come on...use your brains. All this shows is that Hornady has the cash to get premium exposure for it's premium ammo.

Well, I was thinking that. Like I said earlier, it's "marketing-style hogwash," right before I pointed out that if the statements that were made were actually true, then they actually trash Hornady's product. This might seem silly, but the only reason I didn't make a direct accusation of any sort is that on another forum, years ago, I did something like that and got kicked off because the person I was making accusations against, a famous person in another industry in which people get trashed by the public all the time, turned out to be a forum member (self-censorship sucks, doesn't it?).
 
Let's just say I have a lot more confidence in a well placed shot from a 9x19 +P than I do a .380. Add to that the fact that MY .380 does good to stay on a paper plate at 25 yards benched and my 9x19 can knock a 3.5" center out of it, my .38 a 3" center. Guess I'll stick with the 9 and the .38 as a preference. :D

But to toss in a dose of reality, how many people take a shot at a BG at 25 yards? At 10 feet, it doesn't really matter if the 75 foot pattern is 3" or 10" - they will all be on target at 10 feet, as long as the shooter has done his training, right?

I can understand the drive to see how accurate a handgun can be at long distance, and I do the same with mine. But we've also got to be realistic about the most likely use of a handgun in a SD situation.

So back again to my OP - if these three rounds DO perform this way (and I have no idea what the distance was from which they were fired), then I am not too terribly impressed, even though my LCR is right now stocked with Hornady's CD in 110 grain .38 +P.
 
Hornady doesn't believe they are the same. They rate the 380 at 84 HITS, 38 special at 127 HITS, 38 special +P at 135 HITS and 9mm at 153 HITS.

The Hornady Index of Terminal Standards (H.I.T.S.) is intended as a guideline to help hunters compare cartridge and bullet combinations. The index considers variables such as impact velocity, ballistic coefficient, sectional density and bullet weight.
 
Hornady doesn't believe they are the same. They rate the 380 at 84 HITS, 38 special at 127 HITS, 38 special +P at 135 HITS and 9mm at 153 HITS.

The Hornady Index of Terminal Standards (H.I.T.S.) is intended as a guideline to help hunters compare cartridge and bullet combinations. The index considers variables such as impact velocity, ballistic coefficient, sectional density and bullet weight.

But those are different criteria than penetration and expansion in ballistic gelatin. Lucky them--they get to have it both ways: 9mm is superior but .380 ACP is just as good. :scrutiny: It's marketing doublethink! :eek:
 
But to toss in a dose of reality, how many people take a shot at a BG at 25 yards? At 10 feet, it doesn't really matter if the 75 foot pattern is 3" or 10" - they will all be on target at 10 feet, as long as the shooter has done his training, right?

I can understand the drive to see how accurate a handgun can be at long distance, and I do the same with mine. But we've also got to be realistic about the most likely use of a handgun in a SD situation.

So back again to my OP - if these three rounds DO perform this way (and I have no idea what the distance was from which they were fired), then I am not too terribly impressed, even though my LCR is right now stocked with Hornady's CD in 110 grain .38 +P.

I really don't care that most gun fights occur under 15 yards. If I can hit at 25, even 50 with it, it gives me confidence. Besides, I might be in the one gunfight in history of the universe as we know it that gets in a gunfight at 50 yards. Postulate all you want about your gunfight experiences, but that don't mean one should carry an inaccurate gun if he has the choice to carry an accurate one. We used to have a 12" slip blind hanging at 100 yards, until the rifle guys shot too many holes in it. I could clang that thing from roll over prone 3 of 5 shots at 100 yards with my 2" Taurus 85SSUL. Was it designed for 100 yard shooting? No, of course not. So what, it's my gun and I get confidence in it when I know how accurate it is. I never was in a gunfight, but I know that a firearm I'm confident in really helps when I'm setting up to take a shot at a whitetail in the field. It might be a 25 yard shot (very close for a deer hunter), but I still appreciate that confidence. I simply don't have the confidence in that .380 that I have in the 9 or the .38. I carry it only when I feel it'd be better concealed, out of the necessity of dress, which really don't happen too often.

ANYWAY, my point was that my .380 isn't confidence inspiringly accurate. My test of accuracy, taking out all possible variables, is to shoot the gun off the bench at 25 yards. It's the standard. Off hand shooting at 3 feet tells me nothing about a firearm's intrinsic accuracy whether that gun will ever be used at longer ranges or not.

Besides, there's no way in heck the terminal ballistics of the best non-explosive .380 bullet will ever match a .38 special or 9x19 hollow point standard, let alone +P load. It is just plain illogical. Heck, most .380 toters carry ball because they don't have confidence in the .380s ability to penetrate AND expand at the same time. I understand that concern, Hornady magic bullets or no.
 
Last edited:
Manco:

At sufficiently high velocity (more than approx 800fps) a cylindrical flat nosed bullet will act like it is larger in diameter than it actually is measured by the diameter of the permanent wound channel. The increase in apparent diameter increases with velocity once the threshold is crossed. Also, this type of bullet tends to maintain a straight track through a target medium.

An expanded hollow point with a mushroom shaped rounded front end will act like it is smaller in diameter than it actually is measured the same way.

FMJ round nose bullets (or unexpanded HPs) at normal pistol velocities always act like they are smaller in diameter than they actually are.

The Duncan MacPherson I referenced is an aeronautical engineer who did extensive work on the dynamics of bullet penetration. His book is called "Bullet Penetration" subtitled "Modeling the Dynamics and Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma". I got my copy from Amazon. There is good plain English text and a lot of calculus.
 
Last edited:
At sufficiently high velocity (more than approx 800fps) a cylindrical flat nosed bullet will act like it is larger in diameter than it actually is measured by the diameter of the permanent wound channel. The increase in apparent diameter increases with velocity once the threshold is crossed. Also, this type of bullet tends to maintain a straight track through a target medium.

An expanded hollow point with a mushroom shaped rounded front end will act like it is smaller in diameter than it actually is measured the same way.

FMJ round nose bullets (or unexpanded HPs) at normal pistol velocities always act like they are smaller in diameter than they actually are.

Actually, I've long suspected that flat-nose bullets and the shapes of bullets (particularly around their perimeters) in general affect their wounding potential. Not only is there more cutting and crushing of tissue with certain shapes, such as wadcutters and semi-wadcutters, at high-enough velocities, there seems to be less of a temporary stretch cavity, meaning that more of the bullet's energy and momentum are used to create a wider permanent cavity and deeper penetration (i.e. greater efficiency). Lately, however, I've somewhat backed off this stance, having seen wounds caused by FMJ rounds that appear to be about as wide as the bullets rather than the narrower holes that I had expected. That said, if it's true that certain bullet shapes can use kinetic energy to cause permanent cavitation and tissue destruction beyond the diameter of the bullet, then this is a phenomenon worth serious consideration. Obviously we're not talking about the explosive energy of Magnum rifle calibers here, but any effective use of the kinetic energy of pistol bullets would be most welcome.

The Duncan MacPherson I referenced is an aeronautical engineer who did extensive work on the dynamics of bullet penetration. His book is called "Bullet Penetration" subtitled "Modeling the Dynamics and Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma". I got my copy from Amazon. There is good plain English text and a lot of calculus.

I'll have to check that out. Do you think that 0:47-1:13 in the following video graphically demonstrates the principles that MacPherson describes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBDzKfKX_yw

Watch how the .38 Special HP bullet (not sure how much it might have expanded, if at all in this case) forms a rather sizable temporary cavity for this caliber in addition to a barely defined permanent cavity on either side of it, while the .38 Special SWC bullet forms virtually no temporary cavity but leaves behind a relatively wide, ragged swath of destruction that is presumably all a permanent cavity.
 
Nothing, absolutely nothing, beats a well-placed round. My view is that you should always shoot the weapon that you are most comfortable with, that best fits your hand and eye, that you are the most accurate with overall. If that weapon is a .380 ACP, then good for you and bad for the bad guy.
 
Manco:

First, 38spl round nose bullets often flip to base forward and make a larger wound (both temp and perm) as they tumble.

Second, semi wadcutters are not the same as wadcutters. They perform more like round nose. The reason is the small flat forward nose creates a "bow wave" that directs the flow around the shoulder. This has been proven by marking a bullet with a felt tip before firing. After firing the mark is still intact at the shoulder.

True wadcutters compress the tissue/gel in front of them and above a certain velocity the compressed tissue/gel escaping around the bullet has sufficient energy to damage tissue/gel around the bullet body.
 
with the top loads .380 and .38special are close. with lesser loads the .38 has a bit of an advantage be it small.

9mm is the next step up.
 
Isn't Gunsite the same people who say that white dot sights make you shoot worse than totally blacked out sights?

It sounds like another case of Gunsite believing what they want to believe and expounding it as Gospel.

But hey, who am I? I am not even close to in the same league as a shooter as Gunsite staff I suppose (you never really know do you).

Im just saying they seem to do a lot more thinking than doing and more testing than training which is what they are supposed to be doing right?

Maybe they are right.

I am still going to trust my 124 grain +P 9mm and my 158 grain 38 +P over any 380 with a maximum weight of 102 grains in factory loadings.
 
Yep, caliber doesn't matter, it's all about the type of firearm. I'll take the true one-shot stopping power of a Ruger 10/22 .22 LR rifle over a shot-placement-dependent S&W 627 .357 Magnum revolver for home defense any day of the week!

Isn't the little ol' .22lr responsible for more deaths than any other caliber? I believe I read that hear also.

Hey, if it was comfortable to carry, I would haul around the 600 Nitro Express revolver that I saw on the interweb. But, it wouldn't be, so, I won't. I carry a .38. I would carry a 9mm sometimes if I could find one small enough to fit in my pocket that didn't cost an arm and a leg. I may carry a .380 in those rare instances that I can't carry anything else.

It seems to me that all of these tests don't matter much in the real world. One guy may be stopped with .22lr and the next guy won't go down when hit with a .45acp. Go figure.
 
performance is almost identical bewteen .380, .38 Special and 9mm, especially in Hornady Critical Defense.

Shot placement being king of all gunfights...

The key here is the fact that he is comparing Hornady CD ammo only against itself. If you look at the CD line in 9mm and .38 you will see how weak the ballistics are... something like 115g at around 1100 fps for 9mm and 110g at 1050 for .38+P. Needless to say, these are not the most potent loads around in these calibers. They are actually some of the more anemic loadings on the market.

If you compare any .380 load to say the 158g +P .38 FBI load, or a 124g +P Gold Dot/Golden Saber/HST/etc you will see a big difference in performance... both in the lab tests and in the real world.

Does this mean the .380 is not an effective caliber? No way. It just is what it is, not much more.
 
"There is simply no way that a 95gr. jhp .380acp can match the performance of a 158gr. jhp .38spl."


looks like your credibility just went out the window. i dont know of any 158gr. JHP.

enjoy your .38special and your fantasy.
 
im not seeing any remington JHP''s. i do find a speer GD 158gr. but they are rare as hens teeth.

:confused:
 
I get 'em from Midway. There's also a local gunshop that usually has 'em.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1601122672

All the bullet makers make 158 JHPs. Hornady XTP is a good bulet, but I like the Remingtons. They're a little cheaper and they're accurate. Plus, I like the large amount of exposed lead they have in the tip. They're actually listed as "semi jacketed hollow points". Right now, they're all out of stock/backorder, but that's nothing new in the last year and a half. :rolleyes:
 
I really don't care that most gun fights occur under 15 yards. If I can hit at 25, even 50 with it, it gives me confidence.

ANYWAY, my point was that my .380 isn't confidence inspiringly accurate.

MCgunner, I see that we are singing the same song, just a different verse. I know what you are saying about confidence, and that drives me to see how well I and my guns can shoot - even out to seemingly extremely ridiculous distances.

I do most of my training up close, but I also try some long shots every time I go out, too, just to see what my gun and I can do.

Keep it up, this has been a good discussion. Thanks to all for the constructive input.
 
Nothing, absolutely nothing, beats a well-placed round.

Except for a well-placed round that can reach the most important body parts in the direction in which it is pointed and from any angle with respect to the target. Such a level of performance increases the odds of any shot to be considered well-placed (effective) once it hits. Nothing, absolutely nothing, sucks more than to fire a bullet directly at a target's vital areas and to have it stop short, causing only a flesh wound.

My view is that you should always shoot the weapon that you are most comfortable with, that best fits your hand and eye, that you are the most accurate with overall. If that weapon is a .380 ACP, then good for you and bad for the bad guy.

If I shot a .380 ACP, I'd quite possibly select a FMJ round for defensive purposes. Expansion means little without penetration that works no matter what the geometry of the shot may look like.

First, 38spl round nose bullets often flip to base forward and make a larger wound (both temp and perm) as they tumble.

True, although that does negatively affect penetration, I would think.

Second, semi wadcutters are not the same as wadcutters. They perform more like round nose. The reason is the small flat forward nose creates a "bow wave" that directs the flow around the shoulder. This has been proven by marking a bullet with a felt tip before firing. After firing the mark is still intact at the shoulder.

So it's literally all or nothing regarding this mode of injury? The SWC round depicted in the video that I linked seems to create an extra-wide permanent wound channel of fairly consistent width. If it were tumbling, wouldn't we see have seen more variation as well as a visible temporary stretch cavity near where it began tumbling?

It goes bang, it stops the bad guy...works for me!

Yes, but your choice of caliber affects the overall odds of a stop, all else being equal.

Isn't the little ol' .22lr responsible for more deaths than any other caliber? I believe I read that hear also.

Beware of absolute numbers. If true, all it proves is that .22 LR can be lethal and that it is used a lot. What it does not tell us is exactly how effective it is in comparison to other calibers. Most likely it is not as effective as a caliber that penetrates more deeply and gouges a larger hole in targets. You could easily kill almost anything with a .22 LR to the back of the neck, but it's probably not the most effective round to use against a charging boar or bear, against which it is practically useless.

It seems to me that all of these tests don't matter much in the real world. One guy may be stopped with .22lr and the next guy won't go down when hit with a .45acp. Go figure.

They matter in ways that are difficult to predict, and the size of the target is one determining factor. Hit a bad guy in the eye with any caliber mentioned here, and he's dead, but .22 LR won't do anything useful in the context of a gunfight if it hits some fat bad guy in the gut (especially when fired out of a pistol), while a round that can penetrate all the way to his spine and other good stuff can kill him in less than a minute and drop him almost immediately if you're lucky. I don't know why this is so hard to see in the context of self-defense when people seem to understand the difference that caliber selection makes in the context of hunting.

Shot placement being king of all gunfights...

Although that doesn't mean that one should settle for .22 LR or Airsoft if one can handle a larger caliber. ;)

The key here is the fact that he is comparing Hornady CD ammo only against itself. If you look at the CD line in 9mm and .38 you will see how weak the ballistics are... something like 115g at around 1100 fps for 9mm and 110g at 1050 for .38+P. Needless to say, these are not the most potent loads around in these calibers. They are actually some of the more anemic loadings on the market.

Like I said early on in this thread, .380 ACP can perform much like 9mm as long as the 9mm load in question performs down to .380 ACP's general level. So much for this being premium ammo (at least certain loads).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top