.380 or .38 Spec.
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Jim March
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Yup. The 38+P is significantly ahead of the 380, even out of a 2" barrel on the 38 compared to 3" to 4" on a 380, even when the "raw energy numbers" come out in the same ballpark.
The difference isn't so much energy level as it is the ability to design bullets without worrying about feed issues or max weight. Follow? Once you use a heavier bullet of 130 - 158 grains and a bigger JHP cavity, screw the energy numbers, there's a REASON the 38 has been geekin' baddies since Eliot Ness walked a street beat.
If Federal ever gets the E-FMJ concept working in 380, or Cor-Bon gets the Pow'R'Ball down to that caliber and one or the other tests out well, it *might* be time to revisit that.
BUT aside from ballistics, there's another big advantage to the lowly snubbie: at close range, it's an excellent fighting handgun. It can't go out of battery on hard muzzle contact, it's simple to "grab and go" with no complications, and it's extremely hard to strip it out of your grasp. In a fight that starts at 3ft range (measured torso to torso) there's no other gun I'd rather have.
10 rounds don't count for much if you're not alive after round five.
NOTE: while I'm a major proponent of the 38+P, in a snub you have to very carefully pick your ammo. There's only a few rounds I'd trust from a 2" tube, the best IMHO being the Winchester 130 +P Supreme JHP and the lead (not Nyclad!) 158grain lead hollowpoints by Winchester or Remington or apparantly Federal used to load these and they were pretty good. These are also known as LSWC-HP 158 +P, or various names like the "Treasury Load", "Chicago Load", "Metro Load", etc.
My personal snubbie is "bedside loaded" with the 158s (Winchester's variant, the easiest to find by far!), with five Winchester 130s in a speedloader because due to the shape, they're easier to load in a hurry.
The difference isn't so much energy level as it is the ability to design bullets without worrying about feed issues or max weight. Follow? Once you use a heavier bullet of 130 - 158 grains and a bigger JHP cavity, screw the energy numbers, there's a REASON the 38 has been geekin' baddies since Eliot Ness walked a street beat.
If Federal ever gets the E-FMJ concept working in 380, or Cor-Bon gets the Pow'R'Ball down to that caliber and one or the other tests out well, it *might* be time to revisit that.
BUT aside from ballistics, there's another big advantage to the lowly snubbie: at close range, it's an excellent fighting handgun. It can't go out of battery on hard muzzle contact, it's simple to "grab and go" with no complications, and it's extremely hard to strip it out of your grasp. In a fight that starts at 3ft range (measured torso to torso) there's no other gun I'd rather have.
10 rounds don't count for much if you're not alive after round five.
NOTE: while I'm a major proponent of the 38+P, in a snub you have to very carefully pick your ammo. There's only a few rounds I'd trust from a 2" tube, the best IMHO being the Winchester 130 +P Supreme JHP and the lead (not Nyclad!) 158grain lead hollowpoints by Winchester or Remington or apparantly Federal used to load these and they were pretty good. These are also known as LSWC-HP 158 +P, or various names like the "Treasury Load", "Chicago Load", "Metro Load", etc.
My personal snubbie is "bedside loaded" with the 158s (Winchester's variant, the easiest to find by far!), with five Winchester 130s in a speedloader because due to the shape, they're easier to load in a hurry.
JPM70535
Member
I completely agree with the choice of a 38 Spec. snubby over a 380 for CCW, However to go one better, why not a J frame in 357 mag.? Same envelope and a whole lot harder hitting round.
22luvr
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Jim March brings up an oft-overlooked point
Many autoloaders can be taken out of battery with as little as a 1/8" rearward travel of the slider! Yikes! The snub, which is also my favorite self-defense gun, is a true belly gun. My hammerless 340 would be hard to grab and it can be fired right from the pocket if absolutely necessary. I carry Proload .357 mag 158 gr JHP's in mine with a hollow point big enough to drink tea out of.
Many autoloaders can be taken out of battery with as little as a 1/8" rearward travel of the slider! Yikes! The snub, which is also my favorite self-defense gun, is a true belly gun. My hammerless 340 would be hard to grab and it can be fired right from the pocket if absolutely necessary. I carry Proload .357 mag 158 gr JHP's in mine with a hollow point big enough to drink tea out of.
Clark
Member
With personal handloads, I have exceeded 9x19mm +P+ with .380, and I have exceeded 357 mag with 38 Special.
That gives a big advantage to 38 special.
That gives a big advantage to 38 special.
tbeb
Member
What would you feel more confident with?
The CZ83 holds double the rounds of a snub .38. Is the CZ 100% reliable with good self defense ammo like Federal Hydra-Shok or Federal Hi-Shok or Corbon or Winchester Silvertips? If it is then it's as good a manstopper as a snub .38.
For ten years I carried a lightweight, 12-shot .380 loaded with Silvertips. During the last year it jammed twice. I think recoil caused my thumb to activate the slide stop. I lost confidence in it. I now carry a snub .38 loaded with +P ammo.
Revolvers can malfunction. I've experienced this with an older Taurus and Dan Wesson and Charter Arms. Never had one problem with a S&W or a Colt or a Ruger.
I recommend you go with a Smith & Wesson airweight snub .38 (even though I know two very knowledgeable wheelgunners who pack Taurus's).
The CZ83 holds double the rounds of a snub .38. Is the CZ 100% reliable with good self defense ammo like Federal Hydra-Shok or Federal Hi-Shok or Corbon or Winchester Silvertips? If it is then it's as good a manstopper as a snub .38.
For ten years I carried a lightweight, 12-shot .380 loaded with Silvertips. During the last year it jammed twice. I think recoil caused my thumb to activate the slide stop. I lost confidence in it. I now carry a snub .38 loaded with +P ammo.
Revolvers can malfunction. I've experienced this with an older Taurus and Dan Wesson and Charter Arms. Never had one problem with a S&W or a Colt or a Ruger.
I recommend you go with a Smith & Wesson airweight snub .38 (even though I know two very knowledgeable wheelgunners who pack Taurus's).
10-Ring
Member
No brainer, 38/357 magnum!
Tbeb, revolvers CAN malfunction, but auto loaders DO, and a lot more. Any questions on that can be settled just by reading the respective forums.
That being said, I have a couple of auto pistols that are about unbeatable for reliability, both .45 1911A1 type. One is a Colt 1941 the other a Norinco.
Jim
That being said, I have a couple of auto pistols that are about unbeatable for reliability, both .45 1911A1 type. One is a Colt 1941 the other a Norinco.
Jim
English John
Member
Predictable
Everyone's answer reflects what THEY like to carry, as it should. When discussing .380 v. .38 someone will ALWAYS escalate the power level up to .38+P and then .357 Mag. The last doesn't compare to a lite .380- apples and oranges, controllability issues (but it must work FOR THEM). I have a S&W M36- 2" .38 (carry w/ Win +P), a 3" M37 (carry w/ non+P Win ST), and a FEG SMC .380 (Cor-Bon) (think of a lite PPK). I like them all, have confidence in all 3, mine are all reliable. Despite the energy figures, I think they are comparable, bullet placement is more important than differences in energy at these levels. In a problem I would prefer the .380 as tactically more efficient (well actually my SA PDP .45, or not be there). I gave the 3" Ruger SP101 to my wife (.38+P) for a "house" gun (works for her). Read all of the above posts again, try out the different guns you have, find what is reliable and what you have confidence in. You can see what works for everyone else, what works for YOU?
Everyone's answer reflects what THEY like to carry, as it should. When discussing .380 v. .38 someone will ALWAYS escalate the power level up to .38+P and then .357 Mag. The last doesn't compare to a lite .380- apples and oranges, controllability issues (but it must work FOR THEM). I have a S&W M36- 2" .38 (carry w/ Win +P), a 3" M37 (carry w/ non+P Win ST), and a FEG SMC .380 (Cor-Bon) (think of a lite PPK). I like them all, have confidence in all 3, mine are all reliable. Despite the energy figures, I think they are comparable, bullet placement is more important than differences in energy at these levels. In a problem I would prefer the .380 as tactically more efficient (well actually my SA PDP .45, or not be there). I gave the 3" Ruger SP101 to my wife (.38+P) for a "house" gun (works for her). Read all of the above posts again, try out the different guns you have, find what is reliable and what you have confidence in. You can see what works for everyone else, what works for YOU?
makdaddy03
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The more rds the merrier.
WebHobbit
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.38 & 9mm should be the smallest/least powerful to be considered for SD.
.357, .40 & .45 are better still.
I don't know why a .380 is even thought about when you can have a .357 Magnum or 9mm in the same size/weight range.
.357, .40 & .45 are better still.
I don't know why a .380 is even thought about when you can have a .357 Magnum or 9mm in the same size/weight range.
Whichever you shoot best, of course. Many people state the .380 is about on par with the .38 special.
However you cannot deny that a 158 gr .38 out-penetrates a 90 gr .380, if your bullet fails to expand will it go deep enough to do damage?
Expansion in NON +p 38's is THE reason the 147 gr Federal Hydra Shock was developed, to be fired from a 2 inch snubby and still get results. You just can't get anything that heavy in a 380. There are some that think even the 148 wadcutter out-performs the 130 gr fmj .38.
Which one will you practice with more? Which one are a better shot with? Which do you trust with reliability? Now which fits best with your mode of dress?
Answer those and you'll have your answer.
However you cannot deny that a 158 gr .38 out-penetrates a 90 gr .380, if your bullet fails to expand will it go deep enough to do damage?
Expansion in NON +p 38's is THE reason the 147 gr Federal Hydra Shock was developed, to be fired from a 2 inch snubby and still get results. You just can't get anything that heavy in a 380. There are some that think even the 148 wadcutter out-performs the 130 gr fmj .38.
Which one will you practice with more? Which one are a better shot with? Which do you trust with reliability? Now which fits best with your mode of dress?
Answer those and you'll have your answer.
The .38 Special is a better round, no doubt.
But....if you can get a 10+1 shot .380 I'd say consider it. The CZ 83 is nice, as is the Beretta Cheetah 84. The difference in power between the .38 spl and .380 is only modest, and IMO 6 extra shots is worth the slight power you will lose per shot. Just IMO, and I could be wrong of course.
But....if you can get a 10+1 shot .380 I'd say consider it. The CZ 83 is nice, as is the Beretta Cheetah 84. The difference in power between the .38 spl and .380 is only modest, and IMO 6 extra shots is worth the slight power you will lose per shot. Just IMO, and I could be wrong of course.
Longbow
Member
' went through the same agony back in '97! CZ 83 and Taurus CH85 were my choices back then (what a coincidence, eh?! 
). I ended up w/ a Keltec P11, 6k rounds through it now and still counting! I'm very pleased with it. Its reliable, lightweight and +p rated. The size is smaller than the CZ 83 (height and lenght?) and it offers more power and it can use a S&W high cap mag. Just somethin' to consider.
). I ended up w/ a Keltec P11, 6k rounds through it now and still counting! I'm very pleased with it. Its reliable, lightweight and +p rated. The size is smaller than the CZ 83 (height and lenght?) and it offers more power and it can use a S&W high cap mag. Just somethin' to consider. Kentucky Rifle
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Guys...
The truth is that *usually I carry a .38 Special snub on my belt or a .32 H&R Magnum (I like the six shot capacty.) in the same position. However, my hip-pouch pistol is my Colt Mustang stoked with RBCD ammunition. (Same kind in my .38.) If I can get the cocked & locked Mustang out of the hip pouch, I have complete confidence in it and the ammunition. It's a good hip pouch~Galco. Stays out in the breeze when I walk, thus it gets UNsweaty. Rips open and I grab the little .380 pretty fast. However, not as fast as "off my hip". I wear the hip pouch when I walk for exercise. I sweat like mad and I don't want to sweat through my gunbelt or holster. Summers in Kentucky are like walking through an oven. (Louisville, in the Ohio Valley.)
KR
The truth is that *usually I carry a .38 Special snub on my belt or a .32 H&R Magnum (I like the six shot capacty.) in the same position. However, my hip-pouch pistol is my Colt Mustang stoked with RBCD ammunition. (Same kind in my .38.) If I can get the cocked & locked Mustang out of the hip pouch, I have complete confidence in it and the ammunition. It's a good hip pouch~Galco. Stays out in the breeze when I walk, thus it gets UNsweaty. Rips open and I grab the little .380 pretty fast. However, not as fast as "off my hip". I wear the hip pouch when I walk for exercise. I sweat like mad and I don't want to sweat through my gunbelt or holster. Summers in Kentucky are like walking through an oven. (Louisville, in the Ohio Valley.)
KR
First, let me state for the record that I choose a S&W 642 as my BUG, even though I'm an "auto-man"... I chose it over the 9mm or .380 for light weight, simplicity of operation, etc.
BUT... I see this all the time in discussing semi vs. revo
If you are in a struggle that is close enough to move the slide out of battery, you are also close enough that your revolver can be rendered inoperable by simply grabbing the cylinder... and it doesn't take much pressure to stop it from turning.
Either scenario is SUPER remote anyway, but the revolver is NOT "smaller" and "harder to grab" than a semi-auto of comparible size. In fact, my 642 is BIGGER and has MORE to grab than my wife's MK9.
It's just not fair to say that the semi can be "taken out" by a little slide movement without pointing out that a revolver is NOT "discombobulation-proof" in an up close and personal struggle situation.
If "Slow" chose a revolver on that logic, and then (Goodness forbid) found himself in that situation, he'd be thinking "I'm glad I have this revolver that can't be rendered inoperable at contact range" (or something like that ) Slow (and everyone else) needs to be aware that, if Bad Guy gets a grip on the cylinder of your revolver, it won't fire!
BUT... I see this all the time in discussing semi vs. revo
If you are in a struggle that is close enough to move the slide out of battery, you are also close enough that your revolver can be rendered inoperable by simply grabbing the cylinder... and it doesn't take much pressure to stop it from turning.
Either scenario is SUPER remote anyway, but the revolver is NOT "smaller" and "harder to grab" than a semi-auto of comparible size. In fact, my 642 is BIGGER and has MORE to grab than my wife's MK9.
It's just not fair to say that the semi can be "taken out" by a little slide movement without pointing out that a revolver is NOT "discombobulation-proof" in an up close and personal struggle situation.
If "Slow" chose a revolver on that logic, and then (Goodness forbid) found himself in that situation, he'd be thinking "I'm glad I have this revolver that can't be rendered inoperable at contact range" (or something like that
) Slow (and everyone else) needs to be aware that, if Bad Guy gets a grip on the cylinder of your revolver, it won't fire!Omaha-BeenGlockin
Member
Just chiming in-----skip the Taurus and take a real close look at a S&W Airweight .38.
The last few I've seen have been pretty reasonably priced---CDNN has a Model 38 in their catalog for $339.99 right now. And the larger 2'' snub blued 6-shot Model 10 .38 Special for $289.99.
They also have trade-in 4'' Model 10's for $139.99--cheap insurance there.
The last few I've seen have been pretty reasonably priced---CDNN has a Model 38 in their catalog for $339.99 right now. And the larger 2'' snub blued 6-shot Model 10 .38 Special for $289.99.
They also have trade-in 4'' Model 10's for $139.99--cheap insurance there.
cratz2
Member
Well, I prefer autoloaders once they prove reliable with my choice of carry ammo. I just prefer the thin, smaller overall size of the smaller pistols over a snub revolver. Has nothing to do with number of rounds or ease of reloading as I don't carry a spare mag.
The CZ83 is a very nice gun. I've shot one on several occasions and have been quite impressed. The only 380 I own is a Jennings.
So don't really consider that a carry gun. I carry a P32 every waking moment and I will be getting one of the 3ATs once I think all the issues are worked out with them. Then I'll more than likely carry that in place of the P32.
I have nothing against Taurus as my most reliable long term pistol is a Taurus PT99 but between a Taurus 38 and the CZ83, I'd carry the CZ83 but I'd prefer something a bit lighter. I think either of them would serve you very well.
The CZ83 is a very nice gun. I've shot one on several occasions and have been quite impressed. The only 380 I own is a Jennings.
So don't really consider that a carry gun. I carry a P32 every waking moment and I will be getting one of the 3ATs once I think all the issues are worked out with them. Then I'll more than likely carry that in place of the P32.I have nothing against Taurus as my most reliable long term pistol is a Taurus PT99 but between a Taurus 38 and the CZ83, I'd carry the CZ83 but I'd prefer something a bit lighter. I think either of them would serve you very well.
Kahr carrier
Member
38 special in a Smith j frame.
RustyHammer
Member
Was going to go with the .38 in S&W revolver ... but then you said CZ-83. That's probably the only .380 acp I'd take over a good .38.
Twice as many rounds in a reliable platform ... I vote CZ-83 w/JHP ammo.
Twice as many rounds in a reliable platform ... I vote CZ-83 w/JHP ammo.
makdaddy03
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Dont forget the Makarov 380acp.
But once you move to a CZ 83, you move into a different class weapon (belt and holster versus pocket). When you do that, you might as well start looking at K-frames and 9x19s.
The PPK/s is really at the upper end (size-wise) of the pocket .380s (and don't forget the Colt Detective Special at the upper end of revolvers). I've never had a pocket-size .380 that wouldn't jam on me, and I've never had a pocket-size (J-frame or D-frame) that jammed on me. (That being said, there's been times I've stuck a PPK/s stuffed--with FMJs--in my pocket.)
The problem with the .380s (and particularly the pocket-sized models) is that you are really looking a the worst of all possible combinations--either a lightweight (95-grains give or take) with zilch expansion and real potential for overpenetration or an even lighter weight bullet that might expand but not even give you minimal penetration (<10").
I've never met a LEO who has had to use (or had firsthand knowledge of one being used) who had anything good to say about the .380. In fact, it is almost universally condemned by those who have had actual field (life or death) experience with it.
The PPK/s is really at the upper end (size-wise) of the pocket .380s (and don't forget the Colt Detective Special at the upper end of revolvers). I've never had a pocket-size .380 that wouldn't jam on me, and I've never had a pocket-size (J-frame or D-frame) that jammed on me. (That being said, there's been times I've stuck a PPK/s stuffed--with FMJs--in my pocket.)
The problem with the .380s (and particularly the pocket-sized models) is that you are really looking a the worst of all possible combinations--either a lightweight (95-grains give or take) with zilch expansion and real potential for overpenetration or an even lighter weight bullet that might expand but not even give you minimal penetration (<10").
I've never met a LEO who has had to use (or had firsthand knowledge of one being used) who had anything good to say about the .380. In fact, it is almost universally condemned by those who have had actual field (life or death) experience with it.
Haycreek
Member
CZ 83 vs 38 snubby
The CZ 83 is the best 380 around, longer barrel, exceptional accurate, a natural pointer, reliable. I perfer the CZ 83 over a 38 snubby. Those of you that have a CZ and are familiar, know that this handgun is good. The CZ 82 is the Czek army officers handgun, and they know that is letal. The CZ 82 and CZ 83 is a modern inprovement of the Makarov. This handgun is very smooth in DA/SA and out to 15 and 25 yards is more accurate than many 1911's. Sure, Bigger is Better most of the time, all things equal, but a CZ 83 ISWB is a good carry. That all said, I carry a Glock 23 or a Kimber Gold Match most of the time.
The CZ 83 is the best 380 around, longer barrel, exceptional accurate, a natural pointer, reliable. I perfer the CZ 83 over a 38 snubby. Those of you that have a CZ and are familiar, know that this handgun is good. The CZ 82 is the Czek army officers handgun, and they know that is letal. The CZ 82 and CZ 83 is a modern inprovement of the Makarov. This handgun is very smooth in DA/SA and out to 15 and 25 yards is more accurate than many 1911's. Sure, Bigger is Better most of the time, all things equal, but a CZ 83 ISWB is a good carry. That all said, I carry a Glock 23 or a Kimber Gold Match most of the time.
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