.40 S+W Best all around round

[BHP9]

Perhaps the worst Cartridge in to be designed in the lastt 100 years

1. Chambered in mid-size auto's. Results in excess recoil which results in shooters not doing their best with it and results in mid-side handguns being battered mechanically at relatively low round counts.

Pictures abound on the net showing the early battering and wear this cartridge causes with mid-frame size guns. One of the reasons its predecessor the 10mm was such a failure was its destruction of even full size framed handguns.

2. Kabooms due to bullet setback. It has been reported in the major gun press that bullet set back as little as 1/10 of an inch in the cartridge will cause pressures to skyrocket and this coupled with guns like the Glock that have generous throating results in an expoded weapon. There are plenty of graphic pictures proving this statement. http://cmty.prodigy.net/sportsrec/glock/gz-glock-dir.html

Combat Handguns magazine reported last year that even high quality guns like the High Power and rugged guns like the Ruger P85 and other guns like the Glock all blew up with Factory 40 S&W ammo. A Shocking story beause most of the time most gun rags most often bend over backwards to publish positive things about guns and cartridges.

The Ruger when it blew up in 40 S&W with factory ammo, according to Combat Hanguns magazine sent its extractor through the head of a nearby shooter resulting in a fatality. This is One very good reason I do not stand anywhere near anyone shooting a 40 S&W no matter who manufactured the weapon.

3. The 40 has neither the high capacity or low recoil of the 9mm nor does it have the massive frontal area of the .45 acp. It is in my opinion the very worst of both worlds.

Even excellent modern designed pistols like the Walther P99 had no problems when chambered for the 9mm but the 40 was a different story, with problems relating to feeding and also early battering of the gun. Pictures on the net show this battering. If you do a lot of shooting the 40 is definately not the cartridge to choose unless you handload it way, way down.

 

[DeltaElite]

Mental note........
The 10mm is a failure. LOL
According to a 9mm fan. ROFL

 

[agtman]

"One of the reasons its predecessor the 10mm was such a failure was its destruction of even full size framed handguns."


Wow. Could you post some pictures of this devastation? 'Cause all the "full size framed handguns" in 10mm I shoot are still running fine - one approaching 4000 rds with no "destruction" in sight.

"If you do a lot of shooting the 40 is definately not the cartridge to choose unless you handload it way, way down."



The .40 is already loaded "way, way down." In point of fact, it's a very watered-down 10mm, especially with the 170 and 180gn bullets. That was the initial idea - let's cut back on the length of the 10mm's case, thereby creating a shorter cartridge, and hopefully get low-end 10mm "stopping-power" out of 9mm-sized pistols.

 

[Handy]

Let's not kid ourselves: 10mm IS a commercial failure. Not as big as .41AE, but only slightly more popular than .41 Magnum. Did the reports of cracked Delta frames contribute? Possibly.


And BHP9 wasn't comparing .40 to 10mm, he was saying that .40's SAAMI operating pressure is too high, in his opinion. The extractor story published in a national magazine lends some credence to this opinion.

He seems to also be a .45 fan. Not just 9mm.

 

[BadJohn]

My Walther p99 in .40 functions and shoots quite nicely.No battering here.

 

[45-auto]

Everybody should pack the biggest caliber they shoot well and that's comfortable for them.

I won't begrudge anybody.

For me, however, the choices are two only: .45 ACP in the 1911 and .357 in any good, reasonably concealable wheelgun with tight timing.

Stainless preferred, but I love the look of good bluing too.

 

[KP95DAO]

That is some feat!

"Combat Handguns magazine reported last year that even high quality guns like the High Power and rugged guns like the Ruger P85 and other guns like the Glock all blew up with Factory 40 S&W ammo. "

I would like to see how they got a 40 S&W round into a Ruger P85 chamber, since that gun is a 9mm. And I guess I missed that story. Which issue was it? I would like to look it up in my back issues.

 

[Rebel Gunman HK]

I have a 9mm, .40 S&W, & a .45 ACP. I shoot the same with all of them. I just accept whatever recoil the different calibers dish out, i dont go out and shoot my .40 S&W and whine about it kicking more than my other guns. Its not hurting me. I dunno, i've just never bought into the caliber wars. To me, they are all about the same size, have about the same recoil, and off hand are about the same accuracy. Maybe you guys could just relax a little and not worry about a few grains and just have fun. They'll all get the job done. Peace easy

 

[kidcoltoutlaw]

5.5 barrel velocity gain ?

has anybody tried a barsto 5.5 inch barrel in a .40 s&w.how much gain over the 4 inch barrel,thanks,keith

 

[4thHorseman]

"The Ruger when it blew up in 40 S&W with factory ammo, according to Combat Hanguns magazine sent its extractor through the head of a nearby shooter resulting in a fatality. This is One very good reason I do not stand anywhere near anyone shooting a 40 S&W no matter who manufactured the weapon."-BHP9

Has anyone else ever heard this before?

 

[meathammer]

4th Horseman,

I wouldn't worry too much about .40S&W firearms kabooming. I have heard Glocks are more succeptable to this. In my opinion, ANY firearm is capable of blowing up. I have a Beretta 96 that I have shot for years. (It's almost 6 years old now.) I have as much confidence in my .40 as any other of my handguns. If and when my Beretta kabooms, I'll be sure to post it here. After I dislodge the slide from my forehead.

 

[HS/LD]

I am amazed at how bad the .40 is that I currently have on my hip.

I had no idea that it was inaccurate, slow, light and small.

I feel cheated!

My H&K USP Compact with its little 3 something inch barrel seemed to fire these .40s downrange at surprising accuracy and now I realise I could have been having much more fun with a 9mm 10mm or .45 :banghead:

I shoot off hand groups at self-defense ranges that cause one ragged hole. I could have been shooting them all through one hole with a 9mm or .45!!

I want my money back.

My 165 Remington bullets exit at 1150fps and have 485lb/ft of energy.

I could have had a .45 from Remington in 230 grain that has a superior 391lb/ft, or a 9mm 115 grain the maxes out at 399lb/ft.

Anyone want to buy a cheap H&K USP Compact in .40 Short&Weak.
Extremely accurate and fires with all the lb/ft of energy you could want , has thousands and thousands of rounds through without a single hiccup..... perhaps I should let the thing go free to a good home.

No I wouldn't want to burden some one with the evil .40 Short&Weak I am going to have the gun destroyed or better yet I will turn it in at the local Handgun Control, Inc. drop off place.

HS/LD

 

[Beorn]

Okay, could anyone tell me something?

If the .40S&W is such a terrible cartridge design for an auto-loader, and it is so inaccurate, and it obviously is a marketing ploy, then how come it still used so often?

I have several friends who are Border Patrol in So. Cal. As a matter of fact, one of them is a shooting instructor for INS. He has nothing but praise for his Beretta 96.

Come to think of it, doesn't the U.S. Border Patrol kick the crap out of the other law enforcement agencies in the shooting competitions? (see --->NRA Story on Border Patrol Shooters )

They almost all carry .40S&W, right? Beretta 96s, right? I mean, the Beretta USA website says-->

In the fall of 1996, Beretta U.S.A. was awarded a follow-on contract for 16,000 .40 caliber pistols by the Immigration & Naturalization Service. Combined with the agency's original 16,000-pistol contract in 1995, it represents the largest single purchase of pistols ever made by a federal law enforcement agency.

Now, I'm curious. These LEOs are "in the trenches" nearly every day. They are put in some hairy situations (as nearly all of our men and women in LE are). Would they wllingly allow themselves to receive inferior equipment, knowing that their lives and the lives of their brothers and sisters in Law Enforcement would be in jeopardy?

I have heard so much about this. Are there any INS agents on THR that could illuminate the situation?

 

[.45Ruger]

I've never experienced the escess recoil that people talk about in the .40. I shoot my SA-XD .40 as well as my 1911. To me they are both fine guns that I enjoy shooting and have alot of confidence in them both.

 

[Beorn]

The Federal Government just started a pilot program for pilots...

Seriously, this program would place a semi-automatic pistol within reach of the pilot and/or any crew member that has been trained on its use.

The gun, a S&W semi-auto.

The caliber, .40S&W.

So, the Federal Government, who wants to be the good guy, is placing an inferior weapon on a plane where hundreds of lives may depend on it?

Once again, someone please explain it to me. I don't own a 40S&W, and I may never, so I'm not being subjective. I really want to know how the Feds could be duped so completely, if in fact they are.

 

[cratz2]

Onslaught, sorry for not replying sooner. We've been moving lately and I've been slackin'

I can only speak from my personal experience, which is admittedly limited. The three shooters I know that carry a G17 carry two full spare magazines.

As for the different pistol sizes (G36 vs G27, PT140 vs PT145) I was more eluding to the fact that I can have a very similar sized pistol in 45ACP vs the 40S&W, I would take the 45.

The one Kahr in 40 I fired was too much for me to control in anything faster than very slow fire. Double taps are completely out where they were very controlable with the 9mm.

I am just a mere civilian myself. No LE, no military. Greatly respect most of those who are, but I am not. My whole 'civilian' reference comes from the fact that many LE jurisdictions went to the 40S&W from the 9mm that carried FMJ ammo. Many of those decisions would have been uneeded had quality HP ammo been carried in the 9mm pistols.

The main point I was, feebly, trying to make is that if you read most accounts of civilian shootings, very rarely are more than 3 shots fired. The delusions of grandeur that lead to some folks carrying said G17 and two full cap spare mags are just that... delusions. One of the reasons the 357 edges out the 9mm, 40S&W and even 45ACP in the silly OSS percentages is due to the shooter and the oft considerable experience that wheel gun carrying LEOs have. Plus the mindset that you only have six quick shots instead of 18. And the fact that if you were to take a survey of LEOs that either carry a S&W Model 19 and those that carry a G17 or G22, the G17/G22 shooters are more likely to have used their weapon than the 357 carriers and are more likely to have had less real training than the S&W carriers. Anyway, if you know you are probably only going to be using those 3 shots, I personally would rather have a 45. If I want a smaller arm, I will opt for a 9mm as I can shoot a small light 9mm with hot loads better than I can shoot a small light 40 with hot loads. To those that can shoot the 40 equally well, by all means, carry it. Or maybe it's just that 40S&W cases tend to piss off folks that reload for the 45ACP.

And no flame intended or taken on my part. Just opposing viewpoints.

 

[cratz2]

And as to why so many agencies carry the 40, as I said in my previous post, many agencies mandated FMJ carry in the 9mm. They were less than stunningly successful and many began to look for other options. I don't think anyone was 'duped' as much as there were several vocal 45ACP advocates at the same time when many agencies that issued 9mm were looking for a replacement AND when S&W was coming out with the .40. Not to mention the fact that many agencies followed suit changing to the 40S&W after the FBI. When folks that don't really much know what they're talking about make such decisions, following suit, no doubt, plays a fairly major role in their decisions.

It's a perfectly fine caliber but it has to be admitted that it is a compromise caliber. If you want bit bullets, you get the 45ACP, if you want a 'high cap' with small fast bullets, you take the 9mm. If you don't want a whole bunch of bullets but you don't want too little, the 40 is the answer, I guess.

Regardless of how much you talk up your personal preference, two well-placed shots of a reliably expanding HP into the center of mass of an average human target will cause said target to slow down. Period. Maybe not flop over dead on the spot, but will give the shooter a tactical avantage to move in for a more permanent and fatal shot into the ocular/nasal area. Doesn't matter much if it's a 115 or 124 Gr 9mm, 155 or 165 Gr 40S&W or a 200 or 230 Gr 45ACP.

 

[DTOM]

Gee, ballistics data beats an ocean of conflicting opinions. I've read a mountain of articles on what the best cartridge is from the labratory testers to the street fighters. It becomes a matter of balancing factors if you want to optimise the physics of the ballistics.

However, absolutely nothing beats the accurately placed shot from someone who knows where to place it. That's not my humble opinion, just an opinion I've read from many street and combat wise gun-fighters.

Find the caliber that works best for you. Find the gun that you can point the best and shoot the best. Practice till you can put the bullet right where you mean for it to go and don't look back.

Good luck.

 

[Handy]

I don't think anybody believes a .40 caliber bullet weighing BLANK and travelling at BLANK velocity is garbage.

Besides the comparisons to 10mm, the .40s parent, I don't think the main thrust of the negative .40 posts has been its ballistics or street performance. I had thought the main idea was that the engineering of the cartridge itself was questionable. Along with that, the reverse engineered 9mm pistols it has found it's way into.

 

[emann]

The best round will be the .40 Springfield Armory with a .45 sized casing and a .40 sized bullet.

 

[kidcoltoutlaw]

if you keep your loads at what the book says,for the 10mm.you can use longshot and get very close to 10mm loads.with the short and weak.i love it brass is much cheaper than it is for the 45 acp.so are the bullets.

 

[care-less]

40 S&W

BadJohn, 40 is an excellent round, 10mm and 45 are better! Sean, case failures in the 40 are entirely confined to Glock pistols, in my experience. They were in such a rush to market them, they just drilled out the 9, and found it wouldn't feed. No problem, just mill in a more angled ramp, so what if it eats into the chamber!! Manufacturers of brass had to thicken up the web of the 40 in lieu of Glocks slop. Don't get me wrong, I love Glocks, but would not own one in 40. My 32, at even higher pressure doesn't suffer the problem. All you 40 shooters out there ( I am one too, Sigma and Sig) take your barrel out, and insert a cartridge. Look at the 6 o'clk position. Glock has a lot of brass showing. Steyr, Sig, Sig, HK, have none. Think about it. The one really lame thing Glock has done.

 

[MCNETT]

Geez, I just wasted 15 minutes of my life reading this thread! :banghead:
-Mike

 

[Chris Pinkleton]

me too.


why do people complain about topics like this then post anyway?

whoops.

 

[care-less]

15min

Sorry boys, didn't realize that you didn't want an answer, or that you couldn't read that in 20sec. bye.