Cpt. America
Member
Well AKElroy I cant seem to find a 165 gr double tap on Hornady's web site. I just selected what I found, the numbers are from their web site. Also if you need 17 rounds to stop a threat you better start packing a rifle
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Anyone else have problems with 40 S&W round?
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Big Z
Member
My glock 27 has no problem getting the job done. The 40 is a great round
Commercial ammo, premium ammo, reloading manuals, chrono reports....what more data you want??
Effectiveness of the cartridge
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However, some writers, such as the published work of Marshall and Sanow, have cast the reputation of .45 ACP as being the "best" at this task into debate. Marshall & Sanow's work, while receiving criticism from Dr. Fackler and others, show the .45 ACP, loaded with the best hollowpoint bullets and fired from a 5" barrel to be a good "one shot stopper", somewhat better than the 9x19mm, equal with the .40 S&W, and only a few percentage points behind the "King" of the Marshall and Sanow study - the .357 Magnum fired from a 4" barrel
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Effectiveness of the cartridge
==========================================================================================================================================================
However, some writers, such as the published work of Marshall and Sanow, have cast the reputation of .45 ACP as being the "best" at this task into debate. Marshall & Sanow's work, while receiving criticism from Dr. Fackler and others, show the .45 ACP, loaded with the best hollowpoint bullets and fired from a 5" barrel to be a good "one shot stopper", somewhat better than the 9x19mm, equal with the .40 S&W, and only a few percentage points behind the "King" of the Marshall and Sanow study - the .357 Magnum fired from a 4" barrel
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Most people probably bitch about .40s for the same reason people bitch about cafeteria food: usually OK but unremarkable. Simple parroting comes into the equation too.
.40s are obviously popular with the folks that RFQ bids for municipal law-enforcement, but not quite as popular with the folks that are issued .40s by the bureaucrats. I trust the cops that say .40s are not their "favorite". I like mine just fine. I'm not a front-line expert though...
Les
.40s are obviously popular with the folks that RFQ bids for municipal law-enforcement, but not quite as popular with the folks that are issued .40s by the bureaucrats. I trust the cops that say .40s are not their "favorite". I like mine just fine. I'm not a front-line expert though...
Les
I will never say that because stopping power is hard to define. No agreement there.
To evaluate a cartridge, mostly we use the power figures, the caliber and the ability to penetrate....
In the grand scheme of things I will concede that the 40 and the 45 are equally effective and overall equally potent....few ft/lb of difference are not going to mean the world....however I will never concede that the 45 is a more effective round for HD as many diehards state over and over with ridiculous assertions like "it makes a bigger hole" or "because 45 is the right number" and nonsense like that because is not....
The "superiority" of the 40 is really in the overall package..more compact and higher magazine capacity in the same power class...LE agencies all over the countries are not wrong....and by the way there are a lot of Cops that love the 40....
To evaluate a cartridge, mostly we use the power figures, the caliber and the ability to penetrate....
In the grand scheme of things I will concede that the 40 and the 45 are equally effective and overall equally potent....few ft/lb of difference are not going to mean the world....however I will never concede that the 45 is a more effective round for HD as many diehards state over and over with ridiculous assertions like "it makes a bigger hole" or "because 45 is the right number" and nonsense like that because is not....
The "superiority" of the 40 is really in the overall package..more compact and higher magazine capacity in the same power class...LE agencies all over the countries are not wrong....and by the way there are a lot of Cops that love the 40....
Cpt. America
Member
At my dept we are issued the Glock 22 .40 S&W. I'm not convinced by the .40. I've seen it in action and would still prefer to have a .357 mag or .45 acp.
GojuBrian
Member
I prefer the .40 s&w over 9mm and .45's.
Accuracy- plenty accurate
Capacity - plenty rounds
Stopping power- plenty stopping power
price$$$- more bangs for the buck than .45's
What's not to like?
.357 magnums = $$$$$$$$$$$
Accuracy- plenty accurate
Capacity - plenty rounds
Stopping power- plenty stopping power
price$$$- more bangs for the buck than .45's
What's not to like?
.357 magnums = $$$$$$$$$$$
I've never seen a study, test or whatever that did not show the 40 to be at least the equal of the 45ACP, most rate it better. Considering it holds twice the ammo as most 45's the debate over 9mm vs 45 should have been settled years ago. The 40 won. While the 45 is a great round it's mythical stopping power is just that, a myth not supported by facts. Not that it is a bad round, it is just not vastly superior to anything else out there.
The knock on the 40 is that it has a snappier recoil than the others and many can shoot the 45 more accurately. I started out on magnum revolvers and only started using autos within the last 15 years. After years of the revolvers all auto rounds, including doubletap 10mm seems like a pussycat to me.
In terms of performance I would rate common rounds in the following order
10mm
40
357 Sig
45 acp
9mm
But the truth is that with good ammo there is very little difference from best to worst and even though I have 9mm rated as the worst, it and the 45 are the calibers I carry and use the most. Even though I think the other rounds may perform slightly better I feel they are good enough to get the job done and I just like the guns they are chambered in better.
I don't currently have a 40. After I bought my 10mm I sold off all of my 40's but feel it is a great round and it would probably be my main caliber if I only wanted 1 gun.
The knock on the 40 is that it has a snappier recoil than the others and many can shoot the 45 more accurately. I started out on magnum revolvers and only started using autos within the last 15 years. After years of the revolvers all auto rounds, including doubletap 10mm seems like a pussycat to me.
In terms of performance I would rate common rounds in the following order
10mm
40
357 Sig
45 acp
9mm
But the truth is that with good ammo there is very little difference from best to worst and even though I have 9mm rated as the worst, it and the 45 are the calibers I carry and use the most. Even though I think the other rounds may perform slightly better I feel they are good enough to get the job done and I just like the guns they are chambered in better.
I don't currently have a 40. After I bought my 10mm I sold off all of my 40's but feel it is a great round and it would probably be my main caliber if I only wanted 1 gun.
AKElroy
Member
Glad I could help. +1 to the rifle; the AK is never too far away. (Although the 1300 w/ 2oz 00 buck is closer)
easyg
Member
My .40 caliber pistols are just as accurate as my 9mm pistols.
Maybe there is something wrong with your pistols, or it might just be a mental obstacle you need to overcome.
I recommend that you take them both to a good gunsmith and let him check them out.
If he says that the guns are fine, then the problem is probably on your end.
The typical 9mm round is certainly not "almost equal" to the typical .40 round in terms of bullet mass, bullet diameter, or energy.
And the notion that the .45 definitely has more "stopping power" is very debatable.
In fact, I'm inclined to believe that the .45 performs no better than the .40 when it comes to stopping humans.
possum
Member
every handgun that i own is in .40 i shoot it, train with it, and carry it exclusivly, as well as reload it. i love it.
ugaarguy
Member
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Where is this study or test?
That's not true of modern pistols in .45 ACP. Early on it was an engineering mindset issue - most of the industry didn't think they could get the capacity in a reasonably sized package. All the while they ignored the double stack 1911s. Then Springfield Armory helped engineer the IM Metal produced XD-45, and the mindset was shattered.
No more a myth than .40 S&W stopping power, or, heck, stopping power itself. I've yet to see anyone here define this mythological "stopping power".
Nor is it vastly inferior as many .40 S&W proponents assert.
That all fades away in the light of the SA XD-45, FNP-45, and other newer .45 ACP pistols. With an XD-45 I get in the same capacity class as the .40 S&W pistols, and in a more controllable chambering.
Dr. Fackler didn't just criticize Marshall & Sanow's so called "work". Studies from Dr. Fackler, Dr. Roberts, Mr. Wolberg, Mr. MacPherson, and Mr. van Maanen have proven that Marshall & Sanow flat out lied. At least we know where you stand. You refuse to define stopping power, but you make claims like "it is considered the second most effective HD handgun round after the 357 Mag." based on the so-called work of two frauds. Marshall & Sanow have been debunked by professionals. At THR intellectual honesty is expected. No one can be honest with his or herself and believe that Marshall & Sanow have any credibility. There is simply too much credible evidence to the contrary.
Finally, since I've asked all of you to cite your sources, I'll do what none of you are willing to do. Here's the link - http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm - scroll down to the heading "Wound ballistics related articles:" and read the cited articles.
P.S. - I have no doubts that .40 S&W is a perfectly good defensive cartridge. I simply refuse to buy into the myths of "stopping power" and "one shot stops".
I absolutely agree
I absolutely agree
Yes some new 45 have increased magazine capacity, point well taken..however I still have to see one..very rare around here.....but you raised my curiously and I will try to locate one and get a "grip impression"
Gryffydd
Member
XD-45s and FNP 45s etc. are "rare around here"? Where in W WA are you? Lewis County?
Here in Lacey all you've got to do is head to Cabelas, Wholesale Sports, Cascade Arms, or any of the other stores and they have them. They're everywhereRSVP2RIP
Member
While I've only had two .40S&W, I would have to say they were the worst in the accuracy dept. of all the handguns I've owned. But having said that, they were only SLIGHTLY less accurate, we're talking about 1" average at 25 yards. I guess that isn't saying much, but CZ is real fond of makining match guns for the round, and I don't think they would waste all that energy if the thing wouldn't shoot.
Mad Magyar
Member
Damn, why do so many of these threads wind-up as caliber wars!
It started with a false premise by the OP thinking the size rd was at fault when the pistol & user were much better candidates...
It started with a false premise by the OP thinking the size rd was at fault when the pistol & user were much better candidates...
QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW
Member
ive never had a problem with my S&W Sigma 40VE. i can stack them up with the 14rnd mags at 15 yards. all in the 10 ring. so i don't see any problems with the caliber.
Gryffydd
Member
And you honestly don't think any of those have XD 45s and friends?
I saw XD yes (mostly 40) many of them....my friend got one. Even my gunsmith has an XD in .40, it is his regular carry gun....well open carry in his shop
But I never saw in presence a double stack 45....I knew that some sort of double stack 45 1911 style existed....
I do not go to the gun shows anymore...the Washington Arms Collector shows are a joke nowdays (especially the Monroe ones..) so I did not even renew my membership this year
At the moment I'm on the prowl for a good real all steel DA/SA 10 mm Auto pistol....I have the cash but I cannot find any gun!!!!
But I never saw in presence a double stack 45....I knew that some sort of double stack 45 1911 style existed....
I do not go to the gun shows anymore...the Washington Arms Collector shows are a joke nowdays (especially the Monroe ones..) so I did not even renew my membership this year
At the moment I'm on the prowl for a good real all steel DA/SA 10 mm Auto pistol....I have the cash but I cannot find any gun!!!!
Gryffydd
Member
Wow...Welcome out from under that rock.
I'm not trying to be snarky, it's just that all these .45 double stacks have been a pretty big deal for a while. People were really excited to have hi-cap .45acps that didn't feel like a 2x4 like the G21.To be honest, I'm amazed of how compact and light is my Bersa Thunder 40 for being a full size all-metal pistol (4.4" barrel length)
13 +1 and, trust me, it's like almost 1/3 smaller than a Beretta 96..and absolutely great ergonomics to top that...
It looks more like a compact than a full size....I'm almost disappointed that it doesn't look "intimidating" enough!!!
It is barely fatter than your regular single stack 1911.
I did let use it to one of my range buddies, a SIG fan (and self-proclaimed gun snob) and I had to fight to get it back!! ...Now he's got the 9 mm version.
13 +1 and, trust me, it's like almost 1/3 smaller than a Beretta 96..and absolutely great ergonomics to top that...
It looks more like a compact than a full size....I'm almost disappointed that it doesn't look "intimidating" enough!!!
It is barely fatter than your regular single stack 1911.
I did let use it to one of my range buddies, a SIG fan (and self-proclaimed gun snob) and I had to fight to get it back!! ...Now he's got the 9 mm version.
I believe in shot placement too! I shoot and carry 9mm, .40 and 45.
Just to put some better numbers up for the .40 in Federal HST, which is my carry choice:
P40HST3 165g muzzle velocity 1130 muzzle energy 468
P40HST1 180g muzzle velocity 1010 muzzle energy 408
Modern ammunition has come a long way and I think that there are great choices out there. I would feel fine with anything 9mm and up, and sometimes it is a j-frame with .38+p for the day...
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