.40 S&W going the way of the dinosaurs?

[carbuncle]

I love .40, just got set up to reload it and my safe keeps attracting more pistols in it!

 

[JohnKSa]

Because handgun effectiveness has always been a marginal proposition -- use the maximum *you* can handle! Any improvements that help the 9mm would make the .40 & .45 even better!

Again, this is based on the incorrect assumption that terminal performance is either the only thing that matters, or that it is the most important factor in choosing a self-defense handgun. It also glosses over a relatively complex evaluation of performance--one, which in my opinion is impossible to self-assess--with the few words "the maximum you can handle".

I don't see lots of people at the range who are going to be in trouble because their handguns don't have sufficient terminal performance. I see a TON of them who are going to be in trouble if they are ever called upon to actually hit anything with their handguns and in even more trouble if they are actually required to shoot more than once accurately in any interval of time that could even charitably be described as brief.

But ask them if they can handle their handguns and they are 110% sure that they can.

My assessment is that out of every 100 handgun shooters, 95 (at the very least) should forget that they ever even heard about "terminal performance" or "stopping power" and focus on choosing and practicing with a handgun that:

1. They will have available when they need it.
2. Will allow them to achieve at least a basic level of proficiency.

That 95% is made up of people who, if they succeed in defending themselves with a handgun will do so either due to extreme good fortune and/or because the sight, or sound of a gun provided sufficient "stopping power" to put a stop to a violent encounter.

But in spite of that those same persons will happily debate the subject of terminal performance as if it will actually make a difference--as if their dismal level of proficiency could reasonably be expected to result in a hit on a moving target in a violent encounter.

It's a variant of the "magic weapon" mentality that has captivated humanity since weapons first existed.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Glocks....

The Glock 22 .40S&W is considered by many to be the "top" US police sidearm, in use with 1000s of LE agencies.
The .45GAP concept seemed to snap & fizzle out.
The Florida Highway Patrol reportedly has plans to phase it out & the PA state agencies have purchased new Glock 21 .45acp pistols due to major problems with the Glocks in .45GAP.
I'm not sure if the NY State Police are going to keep it.
The S&W Military and Police 9x19mm(9mm Luger) is gaining a lot of + buzz now too(2014). The Texas DPS and the NM state troopers cut the .357sig caliber for new M&Ps in 9mm.
Author & legal use of force trainer; Massad Ayoob put out a recent gun press article saying many US police agencies went to 9mm pistols due to marksmanship/training issues but I think it might be due to $/budgets & more 9x19mm rounds being ready to ship/procure over LE type .45acp/.40/.357sig.

 

[surfinUSA]

I like the 40 and always have. I like that its bigger and more powerful than the 9mm but still fits in a 9mm sized gun.

What I also like is that in the first Obama ammo shortage and the current one, I see 40 S&W on the shelves everywhere. There is some 45acp too. But just today I was listening to two guys at Walmart cry that there is no 9mm.

 

[Eb1]

I 100% agree with your explanation of the 95%.

 

[LiquidTension]

We finally got rid of our 2nd Gen G22s about two years ago. The tritium was past its half life and the pins had already had to be replaced due to breakage. We traded them in and got Gen 4s and new Safariland duty holsters to replace the level 1 garbage holsters that had caused several guns to be dumped during foot chases. But I guess that's all just government waste, right?

Unfortunately the new ones are still .40s. I'd prefer the 9mm - cheaper to practice with, less recoil, higher capacity, and terminal ballistics that are close enough as makes no difference. Being easier to shoot means getting better hits and that's the most important thing. The Sheriff's Department is in the process of transitioning from .40 to 9mm. Columbia PD already switched from .45 to 9mm. There may a trend away from the .40 (two local departments isn't exactly a large sample size), but it's certainly not substantial enough to threaten the life of such a well established cartridge.

 

[RustyShackelford]

.45acp ....

I'm going the other way.
I plan to buy a new .45acp sidearm soon. Either a M&P(with ambi safety), a Glock 41, a SIG Sauer P227R(DAK), or maybe a XDm.

I don't have issues with pistol sizes or recoil/muzzle flash. I used OC on a recent business trip to western PA and had no problems.
To me there's no big concerns with a 13-15 round .45acp & a 9x19mm or .40S&W with 17-19 rounds. The .40 has a lot to offer and is available in most places now(2014) compared to late 2012/2013.
My local sheriffs office with nearly 1200 sworn deputies has the Glock 21/30 .45acp sidearms since around 2002. They also use HK UMP .45acp sub-guns for special units(SWAT, warrants, auto-theft, etc). To my knowledge, the sheriff's deputies use only Speer Gold Dot 230gr JHP +P. They used to carry Beretta 92FS 9x19mm. A few "old timers" or reserve sworn deputies had them but they are now mostly all gone now.
My state regulatory agency for armed security has new bills in the current state assembly to allow .40S&W & .45acp semi auto pistols for armed officers(among a few other changes). The .357sig was considered too but it's slow decline & limited availability got it cut from the new regulations.

Rusty

 

[Kynoch]

Most know why the .40 Short & Weak came about. Sad that it did too because helped to put a superior caliber (10mm) on the back burner -- at least so far.

It's honest to ask if the .40 is still advantageous over a 9mm given the bullet development over the past 25+ years with regard to defensive use? The clear answer is absolutely no. One would need to neck-down the .40 case to 9mm (AKA .357 SIG) for the .40 to outperform the 9mm.

The 9mm has definite advantages -- ammo price, recoil, magazine capacity, etc.

 

[M1GarandDeerHunter]

If the 40 S&W is going the way of dino, it hasnt gotten the memo yet.

 

[Theohazard]

JohnKSa put it perfectly in post #52. The differences in terminal effectiveness between the common self-defense calibers are very small, so it doesn't make much logical sense to use that as your deciding factor when choosing a caliber. But factors like ammo cost, availability, and recoil will affect how often you can practice and how fast and accurate you'll be. And that's what actually matters.

 

[AnthemBassMan]

And that was the reason I went with the .40S&W over the 9mm. No 9mm ammo to be found except SD ammo. And the shelves were fairly loaded with the . 40 in ball ammo...

L8R,
Matt

 

[gunnels]

I measure popularity based upon what is shot at the local gun ranges. I take a poll every time I go by picking up all the brass I possibly can. The result of the poll is 9mm is #1, followed up very closely by .40 S&W, and in the third position was 45 ACP. All others were miles behind.

I recently bought one of those police trade ins in .40 S&W off of Gunbroker. It was in pristine condition and showed no signs of wear. It was a Beretta 8040D Cougar.

 

[HexHead]

If the 9mm has gotten better due to advances in bullets and powders then how is it that the same advances haven't made the .40 better also?
Shoot anything other than paper with both and it's clear that .40>9mm.

For starters, there is no such animal as .40S&W+P. Yet we have 9mm, 9mm NATO, +P and +P+.

 

[LT.Diver]

I resisted getting a .40 because I always thought it was a solution looking for a problem. We already had .45 and 10mm, and if you can't win a gun fight with either one of those then you're in the wrong fight.
However, I have a buddy who has thousands of boxes of .40 caliber ammo left over from his last career. So I picked up a Glock 23 and I'm very happy that I did. Fun to shoot, easy to carry, holds plenty of ammo and packs a good wallop.
So I guess I'm a convert, (and a cheapskate). I wouldn't have bothered if not for the free ammo. I guess when that dries up I'll have to add some .40 dies to my reloading bench.

 

[LT.Diver]

The only problem with your informal survey is it doesn't account for brass picker-uppers and revolver shooters. But I think you are probably right on anyway.

 

[wanderinwalker]

The .40 isn't going anywhere any time soon. Of course, the 9mm was never very far away either. Both are great rounds.

I'd also agree with JohnKSa's assessment of the skill of the average handgun owner/shooter. If those 95 shooters can already barely keep hits from a 9mm or a .38 Special on a standard silhouette target at 5-7 yards, what good is a "more effective" cartridge or a "more natural pointing/handling/feeling/shooting" pistol going to do for them? Answer: none. The problem is neither the pistols nor the calibers, but the shooter's ability to put bullets where they need to be.

That said, I'm all for more horsepower, so long as the shooter can use it effectively. And for many people and uses, the .40 S&W fits that role perfectly. I for one hope it doesn't die any time soon, I'd like to own one and ring it out someday.

 

[.357 magnum]

I have Some Prejudice AGAINST the .40sw

I have to admit I own a lot of 9mm and .45acp handguns. I own ONE .40sw. I like the 9mm because with the right Ammo it is an EXCELLENT Defensive Cartridge. Multiple shots are easy, High Cap mags are so easy to get. [I have 20rd extended mags in my two Beretta's] I Love the .45acp the Most. It is My Favorite Caliber. Least number of rounds I have are in my Ruger SR1911. [ 8 in the mag, 1 in the Chamber. My XDm .45 holds 14 rds total! That is some REAL FIRE POWER. I Honestly see NO reason why an LEO agency would NOT choose 9mm over .40sw it is Less Expensive and so close in effectiveness. I would even go as far as saying it is More effective because of How Easy it is to remain on Target with follow up shots. Also it is so Rare for an LEO to use their weapon, that just picking up and firing a 9mm is so easy.

The Best to All.

Frank

 

[RustyShackelford]

What the "experts" say....

Some tactics & gun "experts" use 9x19mm semi auto pistols everyday with 0 issues. They teach classes & suggest 9mm firearms to the students/armed professionals(PSCs, cops, federal agents, etc). Pat Rodgers, a retired sworn LE officer(NYPD) & USMC veteran says that his everyday carry pistol is a M&P full size 9x19mm. Rodgers teaches all over the USA.
He says the 9x19mm has great ballistics & new bullet designs compared to the 1990s/1980s. He also feels the larger magazine capacity & lower recoil are + factors.
There's nothing wrong with the .40S&W. It's fine for most uses but I think the .45acp would be better for most users/armed personnel. Marksmanship training & proper tactics can be used to make a .45acp shooter better.

Rusty

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

For starters, there is no such animal as .40S&W+P. Yet we have 9mm, 9mm NATO, +P and +P+.

Neither is there a +P+. Anything Past SAAMI specs can technically be considered +P but there is no standard for +P+ Pressures.

Pressure does not mean velocity either. Higher velocities can be achieved within SAAMI specs using the right powder type. At the same time some fast burning powders tend to produce lower velocities with higher pressures. In fact some will Surpass SAAMI specs into the +P without passing what most consider standard velocities.

The problem is the term +P meaning + pressure is that it does not completely represent the Velocity as some think it does.
IF by the term +P is higher velocity and +P+ is accepted as a real term it must be defined which it is technically not. If +P+ were to technically exist it would have to have parameters. If one believes there is a +P+ by own definition where there are no technical parameters then there is a +p 40 and sold as such by Buffalo Bore and loaded by reloaders often.

 

[agtman]

Not if the .40 kills off its users first ...

.40 S&W going the way of the dinosaurs?

Well, not the ammo so much as the shooters.

Recent example: http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/359609-sadly-another-40-shield-kaboom.html

Well, at least it wasn't a Glock Fortay ...

Yep, given the .40's monumental lead in KABOOMS! among the so-called "service cartridges" chambered for autoloaders (i.e., 9mm, .357Sig, .40S&W, 10mm AUTO & .45acp), it won't be long before it's been abandoned by KABOOM! survivors.

Why, there'll be so much unwanted .40 ammo that we can pull the bullets for reloading the 10mm, use the powder as fertilizer, and sell the primed brass to, say, the Chinese.

 

[fastbolt]

.40 S&W going the way of the dinosaurs?

Nope.

The .40 S&W will remain a viable civilian LE/Gov service cartridge for some time after the .357SIG and the .45GAP have a minimal presence.

Granted, there's been a slight rebound in the use of the 9mm as a civilian LE service caliber, and most often the reasoning is that it's easier on guns and shooters than the .40 S&W.

Even the .45 ACP has been enjoying a slow & steady resurgence of popularity among LE users, but it's still not approaching the sheer numbers of 9 & .40 users across the board. For example, the last couple of state contracts for duty ammo here in CA included both 9 & .40, and even .38 Spl +P, but not any .45 ACP (or .357SIG or .45GAP, for that matter). It's not exactly preeminent among the popular service calibers.

Private buyers? It's not uncommon to see casual and less experienced shooters tend to trade in .40's for 9's. Sometimes even trading in .45's for 9's.

While ammo availability & pricing reasons may be involved, the additional felt recoil of the other calibers over the 9mm is often offered as a reason.

I suspect we'll see the .40 S&W remain around for some years to come ... and, I suspect the most common LE loading will once again become the original 180gr bullet weight.

 

[DaisyCutter]

No more 40 cal for my dept, only 9mm and 45.

Same for my department. But then again we probably work for the same...

I just dropped $518 on a new Glock 41 in .45 ACP. I can't reconcile the 9mm, it would keep me up at night. Plus I reload, so cost is a non-factor.

 

[fastbolt]

I was listening to one of the newer instructors while working the range, and he happened to mention that he's going back to carrying a 9mm on his own time. He basically said he finds the 9mm to have enough less muzzle whip/wrist snap to make it more practical for him.

Now that our people are able to once again carry personally-owned weapons for duty, it seems there's a growing number of shooters (of all experience & ability levels) who are going away from either .40 or .45 and choosing 9mm (124gr +P duty load).

Interesting.

Even a couple of the more experienced instructors who have been carrying .45 duty weapons have shifted over to 9's (Glock and M&P).

Guess the ammunition orders will have to shift to accommodate the trend, at some point. I'm wondering if .45 will eventually shift to becoming #3 choice among our folks, from having been the over-whelming preference in recent years (if guns were available). It was periodically hard to keep .45 models in-stock for issue for the last few years. Now they're getting turned in for 9's & .40's.

I wish everyone focused as much time & effort on developing and maintaining their shooting skills as they do in choosing calibers.

 

[SDGlock23]

Most know why the .40 Short & Weak came about. Sad that it did too because helped to put a superior caliber (10mm) on the back burner -- at least so far.

It's honest to ask if the .40 is still advantageous over a 9mm given the bullet development over the past 25+ years with regard to defensive use? The clear answer is absolutely no. One would need to neck-down the .40 case to 9mm (AKA .357 SIG) for the .40 to outperform the 9mm.

That sounds kind of backwards, why would you say that the .40 has absolutely no advantages over the 9mm but also claim that the 10mm is superior ? Oh the 10mm is the same caliber as the .40, just uses a different (longer) cartridge, and it doesn't have the bullet technology the .40 has either. Why would a bullet that is larger and heavier that also uses the newer technology bullets have absolutely no advantages over a smaller and lighter bullet, with less energy too? Same goes for the .357 SIG, smaller and lighter bullets don't make it better, so you must be too overly focused on energy numbers to come to your conclusion.

I like the 9mm just fine, and it certainly has some advantages in it's own right, but I also recognize that the .40 has advantages over the 9mm too. And really I'm not convinced a 115gr 9mm moving at 1,300 fps is totally inferior to a 125gr 357 (.355") SIG moving at 1,350 fps, both are quite close and while not equals, either one will kill just fine with proper shot placement.

Being that the .40 is reasonably close to the 10mm in its performance capabilities as a whole (both loaded hot, not a hot 10mm vs a factory .40), would you also say that the 10mm really has no advantages over the 9mm too? After all the 10mm doesn't have some of the more mainstream newer bullet designs that the 9mm, .40 and .45 has because of a nearly complete lack of factory 10mm support.

 

[mavracer]

I don't think by any stretch that it's going away, but I do think the honeymoon moon is over and it is past it's peak popularity wise.
While there are many still on the bandwagon many have gone back to 9mm and 45s.
The 40 may be the "best compramise" but "best compramise" is a oxymoron