oldreloader
Member
I'm getting ready to buy another pisto (Probably a S&W M&P )l. I'm trying to decide between 40 and 45. Any pros or cons for reloading for them will help my decision. Thanks.
40 S&W or 45 Auto
- Thread starter oldreloader
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gamestalker
member
I would personally never buy a 45 ACP. They don't offer any real velocity options and penetration is very limited. On the flip side, I load for 40 S&W and can easily get velocities with a 180 grain bullet to near 1200 fps. A 155 gr. will get up around 1450 fps no problem. But this topic is as loaded as the firearm is and will deffinitly inspire a lot of critics. Simply put in my own opinion, I like high velocity potential because it delivers better penetration and does more tissue damage from the hydro shock. A slow heavy bullet is lacking in this area.
Remo223
member
LEO shooting statistics show 357mag and 45ACP to be the best man stoppers.
csbassplayer2003
Member
Velocity isn't everything when it comes to stopping power. Going from a 180gr to a 230gr in .45 acp is a lot of extra weight you are throwing (almost a 3rd more). Velocity might be nice if your concerned only with impressing people with big numbers on a chrono, but in the real world where people aren't naked, and game don't have fat layers and muscle tissue, bullet weight means a lot when it comes to actual penetration. Hence why we don't use a 9mm to hunt bears (unless you are wanting to give them a chance to hurt you) even though it runs at high velocity.
Steve Koski
Member
How much do you plan to shoot? 45 ACP brass and components are noticeably more than 40 S&W if you're going to shoot USPSA or IDPA.
Both reload easily.
Koski
Both reload easily.
Koski
LiveLife
Member
I have both M&P40/M&P45 and would highly recommend both. If you are looking to buy only one pistol, specifically for reloading, I would recommend the M&P45.
Although the M&P40 shoots accurately with various jacketed, plated and lead reloads in 140-180 gr weight bullets, it cannot out shoot the accuracy obtained by the M&P45 with 200 gr SWC bullet.
Many may think the reloading cost for 45ACP may be much higher than 40S&W and it is not. Using 5.0 gr of W231/HP38 for 200 gr SWC and 4.2 gr for 180 gr TCFP, here's the comparison cost break-down excluding brass/hazmat/shipping costs:
Powder Valley prices (they sell for less than Missouri Bullets website):
40S&W 180 gr TCFP (Missouri Bullets IDP #5) - $33.90/500
45ACP 200 gr SWC (Missouri Bullets IDP #1) - $35.89/500
8 lbs Hodgdon HP-38 - $110.50
1000 Winchester LP primers - $25
Using the reloading cost calculator, I get:
45ACP 200 gr SWC - $5.33/50 or $106.67
40S&W 180 gr TCFP - $5.06/50 or $101.29
I buy in bulk and stock up whenever I see good sales/deals online or at gun shows. Even including hazmat/shipping/sales tax, I regularly reload 45ACP for under $6/50.
Although the M&P40 shoots accurately with various jacketed, plated and lead reloads in 140-180 gr weight bullets, it cannot out shoot the accuracy obtained by the M&P45 with 200 gr SWC bullet.
Many may think the reloading cost for 45ACP may be much higher than 40S&W and it is not. Using 5.0 gr of W231/HP38 for 200 gr SWC and 4.2 gr for 180 gr TCFP, here's the comparison cost break-down excluding brass/hazmat/shipping costs:
Powder Valley prices (they sell for less than Missouri Bullets website):
40S&W 180 gr TCFP (Missouri Bullets IDP #5) - $33.90/500
45ACP 200 gr SWC (Missouri Bullets IDP #1) - $35.89/500
8 lbs Hodgdon HP-38 - $110.50
1000 Winchester LP primers - $25
Using the reloading cost calculator, I get:
45ACP 200 gr SWC - $5.33/50 or $106.67
40S&W 180 gr TCFP - $5.06/50 or $101.29
I buy in bulk and stock up whenever I see good sales/deals online or at gun shows. Even including hazmat/shipping/sales tax, I regularly reload 45ACP for under $6/50.
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Steve Koski
Member
bds,
If you compare a light 45 bullet and a heavy 40 bullet, they're going to be about the same.
Looks like a 140 grain .40 bullet is priced at $29.41. So .45 bullets cost about an extra $6.50 per 500, or $13.00 per thousand, plus the difference in shipping costs.
.40 brass is cheap and everywhere. Again, this boils down to how much shooting you're going to do. How do the prices of used .40 and .45 brass compare?
Koski
If you compare a light 45 bullet and a heavy 40 bullet, they're going to be about the same.
Looks like a 140 grain .40 bullet is priced at $29.41. So .45 bullets cost about an extra $6.50 per 500, or $13.00 per thousand, plus the difference in shipping costs.
.40 brass is cheap and everywhere. Again, this boils down to how much shooting you're going to do. How do the prices of used .40 and .45 brass compare?
Koski
LiveLife
Member
Steve, OP didn't ask for the "cheapest" reloading cost but asked for "any pros/cons" for reloading 40 vs 45. OP said nothing about IDPA/USPSA. Based on the information OP provided, I am going along the line that OP is going to reuse the brass, so there would not be any subsequent cost of brass. But even using the 140 gr vs 200 gr, $13/1000 is nominal difference and that's what I was trying to illustrate, that reloading cost between 40 and 45 is not that much different. BTW, shipping cost for 1000/2000 40S&W or 45ACP bullets is same if being shipped using USPS flat rate which most vendors use.
I simply offered my personal experience of M&P pistols in both calibers based on two most accurate 40S&W and 45ACP loads I prefer to reload for. I prefer the heavier 180 gr in 40S&W and lighter 200 gr in 45ACP, but that's my preference. Your experience may be different from mine, and that's why the OP is asking for opinions. Ultimately, OP is going to make the decision that's best for the OP. Peace.oldreloader said:
bds said:
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sonick808
Member
either are going to do their job if you hit the right place. I personally prefer .40S&W
OP
OP
oldreloader
Member
I don't shoot any organized shoots. Mostly just plinking for fun.I'll probably shoot 50 to 100 rounds a week and I already have a 9SVE to shoot too. thanks for the comparison bds. From someone who owns both how do you like them in the M&P?
LiveLife
Member
I have shot several hundred thousand rounds of 40S&W rounds the past 16 years in Glock 22/27 and a Glock fan. I started out shooting a 1911 and like the 45ACP cartridge. I also have shot most other polymer semi-autos, but when the M&P came out, I was SOLD to the various ergonomic improvements M&P made over the Glock.
The grip is a "Oooh, nice feel" to the hand with 3 inserts for much comfortable fit/feel. All the controls are reachable by the shooting thumb (slide release/mag release) and have fully ambi-slide release with reversible mag release. Barrels have standard land/groove rifling so I reload lead bullets with less worry. Recoil spring rate provides softer felt recoil over the Glock and comes with full-length "metal" guide rod with captured spring. And the metal magazines will always "drop free" regardless whether you have the pistol slightly tipped or not.
The only "con" I have that is easily resolved is the trigger. My Glocks have 4.5 lb trigger after the initial break-in. Glocks also have shorter reset for faster double-taps, but if you don't plan on competing, this is not an issue. I highly recommend the APEX sear replacement (it will be the best $40 spent on the M&P) as this will reduce the factory trigger of about 7 lbs down to lighter 4 lbs with shorter trigger reset. I did the trigger job posted on Burwell Gunsmithing myself doing about 60% reduction of APEX sear with light polishing of the metal parts. My trigger is now about 4 lbs (lighter than Glock) and it is probably the cleanest/smoothest feeling trigger that I shot in a striker fired pistol.
Like I posted, I highly recommend both M&P40 and M&P45. When my sister/father were looking for a softer shooting 40 caliber pistol (I told them Glock 22 shoots fairly soft already), I recommended the M&P40 for them. After range testing several different pistols, they both agreed M&P40 provided softer felt recoil with more comfortable grip/controls. As to trigger, my suggestion is to do a light polish on the trigger metal contact surfaces to reduce the "gritty" feel with the factory trigger. Many who shoot revolver DA, have no problem with the factory trigger (like my father) and even my sister did not have issues with factory M&P40 trigger. You have the APEX option if you want to improve/smooth out the trigger.
The grip is a "Oooh, nice feel" to the hand with 3 inserts for much comfortable fit/feel. All the controls are reachable by the shooting thumb (slide release/mag release) and have fully ambi-slide release with reversible mag release. Barrels have standard land/groove rifling so I reload lead bullets with less worry. Recoil spring rate provides softer felt recoil over the Glock and comes with full-length "metal" guide rod with captured spring. And the metal magazines will always "drop free" regardless whether you have the pistol slightly tipped or not.
The only "con" I have that is easily resolved is the trigger. My Glocks have 4.5 lb trigger after the initial break-in. Glocks also have shorter reset for faster double-taps, but if you don't plan on competing, this is not an issue. I highly recommend the APEX sear replacement (it will be the best $40 spent on the M&P) as this will reduce the factory trigger of about 7 lbs down to lighter 4 lbs with shorter trigger reset. I did the trigger job posted on Burwell Gunsmithing myself doing about 60% reduction of APEX sear with light polishing of the metal parts. My trigger is now about 4 lbs (lighter than Glock) and it is probably the cleanest/smoothest feeling trigger that I shot in a striker fired pistol.
Like I posted, I highly recommend both M&P40 and M&P45. When my sister/father were looking for a softer shooting 40 caliber pistol (I told them Glock 22 shoots fairly soft already
), I recommended the M&P40 for them. After range testing several different pistols, they both agreed M&P40 provided softer felt recoil with more comfortable grip/controls. As to trigger, my suggestion is to do a light polish on the trigger metal contact surfaces to reduce the "gritty" feel with the factory trigger. Many who shoot revolver DA, have no problem with the factory trigger (like my father) and even my sister did not have issues with factory M&P40 trigger. You have the APEX option if you want to improve/smooth out the trigger.
FROGO207
Member
I was in your position a few years ago and went with the 45 for the simple reason that I liked the round. The pro's of the 40 would be more ammo smaller weight of bullet=faster and component costs are less but not by a large margin. Still I like the 45 cause it is cool. Don't you just like it when emotions rule a decision.
BTW I still don't own a 40 yet.
BTW I still don't own a 40 yet.
Geckgo
Member
Where I live, it's easier to find range brass for the 40SW. The local PDs all use .40 cal so there is always .40 brass laying around. .45 brass only seems to show up after I shoot or one of the 1911 guys. Who knows, .40 may be more popular than .45acp one day if it isn't already, I know that I see a LOT of .40 brass when I go brass hunting.
Minnesota Wild
Member
It makes me sad that three quarters of the responses to your simple question are simply debate about stopping power and not responsive to what you are asking...what are the pros and cons to reloading the two cartidges.
In response to that question, my experience is similar to some of the other posts that the big difference is in getting the brass. 40 brass is super-cheap at the once fired stores, and I'm much more inclined to believe that much of it has actually only been fired once due to the popularity of the round with government agencies that sell their brass rather than reload it. That said, I've never had to buy 40 brass as I can always find plenty of people at local practical shooting matches that I'm shooting in that don't reload and are willing to give me theirs. This isn't the biggest deal with a caliber, but it can make a difference; it's nice to have free components.
Contrary to some of the above posts, there is a cost difference in the price of bullets, whether that's built-in for shipping or not. The common low-cost jacketed bullet manufacturers (Precision Delta, Montana Gold) sell the bullets for about $5-10/1000 cheaper in 40. Not a big deal, but if you want to shoot a lot it can add up. Of course you can save $30-40/1000 by going with 9mm, so...
One of the nice things about 45 is that it performs well with many of the same powders as 38/357 if you load that caliber (231, Bullseye, Unique). You can use those powders in 40, but they tend not to be the best performing for the round. This, of course, is subject to a great deal of debate and somebody is bound to flame me about how they use 231 in their 40 and it shoots half-inch 100 yard groups.
In response to that question, my experience is similar to some of the other posts that the big difference is in getting the brass. 40 brass is super-cheap at the once fired stores, and I'm much more inclined to believe that much of it has actually only been fired once due to the popularity of the round with government agencies that sell their brass rather than reload it. That said, I've never had to buy 40 brass as I can always find plenty of people at local practical shooting matches that I'm shooting in that don't reload and are willing to give me theirs. This isn't the biggest deal with a caliber, but it can make a difference; it's nice to have free components.
Contrary to some of the above posts, there is a cost difference in the price of bullets, whether that's built-in for shipping or not. The common low-cost jacketed bullet manufacturers (Precision Delta, Montana Gold) sell the bullets for about $5-10/1000 cheaper in 40. Not a big deal, but if you want to shoot a lot it can add up. Of course you can save $30-40/1000 by going with 9mm, so...
One of the nice things about 45 is that it performs well with many of the same powders as 38/357 if you load that caliber (231, Bullseye, Unique). You can use those powders in 40, but they tend not to be the best performing for the round. This, of course, is subject to a great deal of debate and somebody is bound to flame me about how they use 231 in their 40 and it shoots half-inch 100 yard groups.
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The .45 ACP will be easier to load for, not that .40 is difficult, but the .45 ACP is as easy as it gets. Nice low pressure load too.
We can argue which is a better caliber until the cows come home, but which is easier to load is a no brainer.
Really? You "easily" get 1200fps out of a 180gr in the 40? Are you using some exceptionally long barrel. Most safe data for the 180gr hovers around 1020-1050fps. An overload of Longshot may get you to 1200fps, but not easily and certainly not safely.
What's the gun and load that puts your 40 on par with the 10mm.
Old krow
Member
This is the case in my area and in the ranges that I go to. It could be different elsewhere. .40SW factory ammo is a little cheaper than .45 ACP. More people around here are shooting the .45 ACP, but they're picking up their brass. There's generally more .40 SW brass lying around. I eventually bought a .40SW because I had so much brass already saved up.
To me, the differences between the two in terms of reloading are marginal. .40SW is slightly cheaper and once fired brass is easier to find. .45 ACP is a lower pressure round and easier to load for. Neither are a "fringe" cartridge and most everything is readily available for both.
The only thing that I really do not like about either is (and this isn't a real complaint) is that the .40SW is the perfect size to get stuck inside of a .45ACP and have a 9mm stuck inside of it.
I don't hate that at all. One of the cool things about being a grown up is being able to do just that.
To me, the differences between the two in terms of reloading are marginal. .40SW is slightly cheaper and once fired brass is easier to find. .45 ACP is a lower pressure round and easier to load for. Neither are a "fringe" cartridge and most everything is readily available for both.
The only thing that I really do not like about either is (and this isn't a real complaint) is that the .40SW is the perfect size to get stuck inside of a .45ACP and have a 9mm stuck inside of it.
I don't hate that at all. One of the cool things about being a grown up is being able to do just that.
Remo223
member
I'd say 40 is already more popular than 45. In fact, I think it's catching up to 9mm real fast.
csbassplayer2003
Member
Wishful thinking. If that were true, every manufacturer wouldn't be racing to produce their own 1911. And many people won't touch 40 because they are 10mm fans. With the police? Who knows. I've seen plenty that shoot Glock 21s and P220s. Even seen the odd Lieutenant with a 1911.
As for reloads, the range I go to has enough people shooting 45 acp that don't reload, so I get 1 shot used in bulk easy. My personal favorite load for targets is just 5.0gr of Hodgdon Titegroup under a 200gr SWC or FP. Consistant and easy recoil for group hunting.
[email protected]
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One pro of the 45 vs the 40 is with reloading with lead bullets. The 45 operates at lower pressure and is easier to load lead bullets.
Steve Koski
Member
eam,
I've loaded 50,000+ lead bullets in .40. It wasn't hard.
Koski
I've loaded 50,000+ lead bullets in .40. It wasn't hard.
Koski
bbuddtec
Member
Definitely off topic, but the only brass I see more of than .40 s&w is .380. Some 9mm and then rifle/.22 Maybe that is indicative of the reloading percentage...
Steve Koski
Member
Hunt,
I've pushed 165 JHPs to 1321 fps average with Longshot powder (Glock 35). I don't know if you can get 1200 fps out of a 180 grainer with Longshot, but I'll bet you could get close.
Koski
I've pushed 165 JHPs to 1321 fps average with Longshot powder (Glock 35). I don't know if you can get 1200 fps out of a 180 grainer with Longshot, but I'll bet you could get close.
Koski
bbuddtec
Member
Another angle, here in NY we still must have a 10- round firepower. do you want 10 .40 cal or 10 .45 cal cartridges?
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