.44-40 + FFFG Triple Seven?

[cstarr3]

Okay, all... Fair warning: Outside of reading a few threads, I am absolutely knew to the realm of black powder, so pardon my complete ignorance. I have some questions about black powder substitutes loaded in the .44-40.

For background: I was given a full pound of some 3F Triple Seven a while back. More recently, I have been holding onto my Dad's Ruger Vaquero in .44-40 (which he no longer shoots). I would like to try my hand at loading some black powder cartridges for it. I have found that Hodgdon recommends 30 gr. of 2F Triple Seven for .44-40. I have also found lots of threads that say that 3F and 2F are fairly interchangeable, but those posts usually are about moving from 3F to 2F. Finally, the Triple Seven claims to be "sulfur free," which means it is not true black powder, so I am not sure if what people say about black powder translates over to Triple Seven.

Has anybody here used 3F Triple Seven in .44-40 loads? Can you use same amount of 3F as the recommended volume of 2F, or do you scale it back a little, and if so, how much? How much of what people say about black powder is translatable to black powder substitutes, specifically Triple Seven?

Thank you all for your help.
-cstarr3

 

[Quint]

Hodgdon says to reduce 777 loads by 15%, as compared to black powder. I do not know what the results between 2F and 3F would produce. I do know that 3F 777 works well in my Pietta and ROA's but I always reduce the loads by 15%..

 

[J-Bar]

Safest thing to do is call Hodgdon and ask them. I suspect they will say 2F can be used in cartridges safely but not 3F. But you should not take my word for it. They are friendly on the phone and their number is on the label.

 

[paul harm]

If you're shooting a 44/40, then 40 grs of BP is what they use to load. 40grs of 3F would be just fine, and what I'd use. 2F is more of a shotgun or large cal [ 54 and bigger ] powder. 3F is a smaller granulation than 2F, so it burns a bit hotter. When loading 12ga shotgun shells I use either 82grs of 2F or 70grs of 3F - that's about a 12% reduction - close enough. BP is not as critical as nitro. I wouldn't go up 12grs with nitro, but even 82grs of 3F wouldn't hurt anything as far as pressure goes, I'd just have more velocity and pressure. I can shoot either 95grs of 2 or 3F in my custom 54 cal flintlock rifle. The 2f load is a little more accurate for groups, the 3F burns a bit cleaner. Just about anything at 50 cal or under uses 3F. At least that's my opinion after 48 years of shooting BP guns.

 

[rodwha]

Hodgdon’s site stated that only 2F should be loaded in cartridges. I don’t know why but I’d certainly follow their direction.

I find it odd that they state to load 30 grns (volume I’m sure) as I also recall it stating that no fillers should be used and bullet seating should give a very slight compression.

In muzzleloaders and cap and ball guns 2F and 3F can be used in any gun. The rule of thumb for going to 3F is to reduce by 10%.

Hodgdon’s statement about reducing the charge by 15% was not about safety but about achieving the same velocity as a BP loss. However I’m at a loss for how this works as Mike Beliveau tested two Ruger Old Armies with Goex and T7 reducing the charges and giving slight compression and still way outpaced the BP. Maybe this is for rifles? But then from what I’ve seen it still flies so much faster. Also we have Swiss and Olde Eynsford powders which are BP and typically are a little faster than T7 so this reduction wouldn’t do.

 

[paul harm]

Hodgdons doesn't make BP, only BP substitutes. 3F BP is the proper size for cap and ball revolvers so how can it be dangerous for cartilage revolvers ?. Their powders are made in 3F and 2F granulat powder and I would have to assume the 3F is for pistols. rodwha, you seem to navigate Hodgdons web site better than me because I couldn't find where they say not to use any of their 3F powders in pistol cartridges - a little help , please. The T7 burns hotter making more pressure so you get higher velocities. But the pressures don't get so high that it's a problem. This is a BP forum, so why worry about something other than BP ?.

 

[rodwha]

Hodgdons doesn't make BP, only BP substitutes. 3F BP is the proper size for cap and ball revolvers so how can it be dangerous for cartilage revolvers ?. Their powders are made in 3F and 2F granulat powder and I would have to assume the 3F is for pistols. rodwha, you seem to navigate Hodgdons web site better than me because I couldn't find where they say not to use any of their 3F powders in pistol cartridges - a little help , please. The T7 burns hotter making more pressure so you get higher velocities. But the pressures don't get so high that it's a problem. This is a BP forum, so why worry about something other than BP ?.

They changed their site. I can’t find the old warnings or the loading info. Not sure what they did with it.

Normally I’d agree with you on being able to use 3F. There’s a museum curator who disassembled very old (late 1800’s) cartridges and found most contained 4F and even finer powders despite some being large calibers. But Hodgdon absolutely stated not to use 3F in cartridges for whatever reason.

 

[rodwha]

I found some info:

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/cowboy-action1.pdf

 

[paul harm]

All shotgun shell manufactures and powder companies state not for use in Damascus barrel guns. I've been shooting nitro loads in my 20 or so Damascus barrel SxS's for over 12 years. I also put on a annual SxS shoot that around 80 guys attend, many of them also shooting Damascus barrel guns, all with nitro powders. It's just a cover your a$$ policy that lawyers want them to print. Twice I've gone to your link and both times when I tried to scroll down my PC gets locked up and I have to shut down the hard way, so I'm not going to try and see what you're referring to. I did read the first page and couldn't find anything referring to not using 3F. I have in front of me Hodgdons #1 BP data manual and in it they show using 3F BP in all revolver loads. This was before all the subs came out. Trust me, 3F is perfectly safe to use in any pistol load.

 

[44 Dave]

You will only fit 36-37 gr in modern brass, you will not hurt your Ruger with that load of 3F.

 

[rodwha]

All shotgun shell manufactures and powder companies state not for use in Damascus barrel guns. I've been shooting nitro loads in my 20 or so Damascus barrel SxS's for over 12 years. I also put on a annual SxS shoot that around 80 guys attend, many of them also shooting Damascus barrel guns, all with nitro powders. It's just a cover your a$$ policy that lawyers want them to print. Twice I've gone to your link and both times when I tried to scroll down my PC gets locked up and I have to shut down the hard way, so I'm not going to try and see what you're referring to. I did read the first page and couldn't find anything referring to not using 3F. I have in front of me Hodgdons #1 BP data manual and in it they show using 3F BP in all revolver loads. This was before all the subs came out. Trust me, 3F is perfectly safe to use in any pistol load.

This may all be true. In general I don’t go against the manufacturers warnings though, and certainly wouldn’t advise someone else to.

And I understand what you are saying. It’s not unlike the warning that 4F is only for the priming pan and is otherwise dangerous despite the fact that granulations of 4F and finer were most certainly used in revolvers of the day (percussion and cartridge). The 1st edition Lyman handbook has load data for 4F Goex in a .44 revolver.

I don’t know why Hodgdon stated not to use 3F in cartridges. I’d suggest asking them. I’ve assumed it might have something to do with a pressure spike due to the crimped bullet which usually is a bit heavy for caliber compared to our modern stuff (185-230 grn for a .45 instead of a 250-255 grn).

Oh, and I couldn’t find the warning not to use it. Just as I also don’t see the part about compression or reduction.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Hodgdon 777 is a Black Powder substitute, not a real Black Powder. It is preferred by some shooters because it does not need bullets with special Black Powder compatible bullet lubes, such as are required for real Black Powder and Pyrodex.

777 is 15% more energetic than real Black Powder, so you will get a bit more velocity for a charge of 777 than you will for a similar charge of real Black Powder.

I looked on the Hodgdon site, and I no longer see the information they used to list about loading 777 in cartridges. However to the best of my memory the recommendation was to put enough powder into the case so that when the bullet was seated it would come in contact with the powder. They did not mention compression, which is usually done with real Black Powder. However I advise you to not leave any free airspace in the cartridge, make sure the bullet comes in contact with the powder. A small amount of compression will not hurt.

Obviously, the bullet design you use, and how far it protrudes into the cartridge case when seated, will have an effect on how much powder it takes to fill the case to the base of the bullet.

Your Vaquero has to be one of the 'original model' Vaqueros if it is chambered for 44-40. The New Vaquero is not chambered for that cartridge. The 'original model' Vaqueros were bigger guns, with bigger cylinders and more steel between the chambers. You are not going to hurt it with a full charge of powder.

Regarding FFg, vs FFFg, you will probably get something like 60 fps - 100 fps more velocity with FFFg than FFg, all other things remaining equal. Neither one will hurt an 'original model' Vaquero.

I have never shot 777, not any other substitute, but I can tell you a full charge of FFg Black Powder in a 45 Colt 'original model ' Vaquero will not hurt it at all. Have shot a bazillion loads.

Do expect some sizeable recoil.

 

[AJumbo]

I have failed miserably in my efforts to blow up my Old Army with compressed charges of FFFFg. I suspect your Vaquero is safe with 37 gr of T7.

 

[paul harm]

I've read in the past that using 4F in the revolvers will at times give pressure spikes. I think it was my Lyman manual but not sure. They didn't give data because they thought it varied too much with 4F.

 

[rodwha]

I've read in the past that using 4F in the revolvers will at times give pressure spikes. I think it was my Lyman manual but not sure. They didn't give data because they thought it varied too much with 4F.

Is that why it’s missing in their second edition? I’ve seen Goex 4F loads used in an 1860 Army in their first edition.

 

[paul harm]

You're right about 4F. In a 44cal with a RB the max charge was 37grs at 6820 LUP [ psi would be about 1000 higher ]. With a slug it was 28grs at 885 LUP. For some reason 3F had almost the same velocity , energy, and pressure. Go figure.