.45-70 Crimp Amount?

[jambie]

I’m beginning to reload .45-70 for my new 1886. Initially I’m putting together Trapdoor loads with Acme .405 gr. coated bullets.

I’m also using a Lee FCD, but having never loaded this cartridge before, and knowing I need a certain amount of crimp in a lever gun (this being my first), can anyone look at this pic and tell me whether it’s too little, just enough, or too much crimp?
Thanks in advance!
Tom

 

[dredd]

To start the argument.....

It looks like you have a bit of a buckle starting.

I started loading 45-70 a couple of months ago.

I use the Lee Die Set.

A friend of mine started before me and warned that I would probably have fits with the Die in the Set.
He switched the the Collet Die and said it solved all of his problems.

Note: All cases for both of us were new, resized and trimmed to the same length.

So.... I went ahead and tried the supplied die. I could not get it to work for me no matter how much I tried creeping up on the setting.
It seemed not enough, to buckling the case.

I picked up a collet die and solved the problem.

 

[jambie]

To start the argument.....

It looks like you have a bit of a buckle starting.

I started loading 45-70 a couple of months ago.

I use the Lee Die Set.

A friend of mine started before me and warned that I would probably have fits with the Die in the Set.
He switched the the Collet Die and said it solved all of his problems.

Note: All cases for both of us were new, resized and trimmed to the same length.

So.... I went ahead and tried the supplied die. I could not get it to work for me no matter how much I tried creeping up on the setting.
It seemed not enough, to buckling the case.

I picked up a collet die and solved the problem.

Buckling from the factory crimp die? Not quite sure what you mean...

 

[dredd]

The right hand area of the pic where the reflection is more prominent, it looks like the case is being pushed down and is starting to buckle / collapse.

That may not be what is actually happening with yours, but that was the issue I was having.

 

[jambie]

I see what you’re saying. So would adjusting it out a little reduce this? I’m using a Redding competition seating die, which does not crimp, so I’d like to make this Lee FCD work.

On the other hand, if somebody can recommend a better, dedicated crimp die for this round, I’ll check it out.
TR

 

[dredd]

Okay... I just pulled my Dies. I was was using the Lee's for my 45 Colt and Hornady for the 45-70

I LIED to you!!!!!!

I switched out the Hornady for the Lee Collet Factory Crimp # 90856

If that is what you are using, it should be working as long as you are not over loading it.
You can watch it work from above looking into it.

I apologize for the miss direction!!!!

 

[Pat Riot]

To me, from your picture, it looks fine.

Here are a couple photos I just took of an HSM factory 45-70 load. It’s obvious they use the Factory Crimp or something similar. I tried to find a photo of my reloads and their crimp but I have none and I have none of my reloads available to photograph. I shot them.





I hope this helps.

 

[Charlie98]

I must be missing something... I’ve always just used the roll crimp included with the seat die. You don’t have to death-grip crimp it, you just have to hold that bullet in place.

 

[ericuda]

Yeah those crimps are way too much.

 

[jambie]

I must be missing something... I’ve always just used the roll crimp included with the seat die. You don’t have to death-grip crimp it, you just have to hold that bullet in place.

My Redding competition seating die does not crimp, hence the Lee FCD. Perhaps I should back it off a little, but it does look an awful lot like Pat Riot’s factory ammo pics...
TR

 

[Charlie98]

Ah! Makes sense. Yea, that’s a lotta crimp. .45-70 brass is expensive enough, without working the case mouth to death.

 

[jambie]

Ah! Makes sense. Yea, that’s a lotta crimp. .45-70 brass is expensive enough, without working the case mouth to death.

Thanks! Again, being my first lever gun, I wasn’t sure how much of a crimp was needed to keep the bullets of the rounds in the magazine in their proper place.
TR

 

[Lennyjoe]

I prefer to use a roll crimp for my 45-70 loads. Just enough to roll the case mouth down into the groove.

 

[FROGO207]

Yep just enough pressed into the groove so if it slides back it catches the bullet and stops. The less the case mouth is worked the longer the brass lasts before the neck splits. You can always crimp some, load three and shoot one. Then measure for setback. If OK then load a tube full shoot them and check the last one for setback. As long as the bullet top stays out of the brass you are good to go.

 

[jambie]

Yep just enough pressed into the groove so if it slides back it catches the bullet and stops. The less the case mouth is worked the longer the brass lasts before the neck splits. You can always crimp some, load three and shoot one. Then measure for setback. If OK then load a tube full shoot them and check the last one for setback. As long as the bullet top stays out of the brass you are good to go.

Excellent advice!
Thanks, all, for the thoughtful responses!
TR

 

[Lafitte]

I crimp 45/70 just enough to get the edge of the case mouth in the crimp groove. No need to overwork the brass.
Lafitte

 

[Pat Riot]

I guess I am a little "gun shy" (pun intended) when it comes to lever gun ammo crimps.
about 25 years ago my friend loaded 45-70 for his Marlin 1895 and I got to experience the wonderful sensation of bullet set back rifle kick when firing 5 rounds out of his rifle. The 4th round kicked a lot harder than the first three with a noticeable increase in report. I ejected the 5th round and the bullet was pushed back a bit in the case. He admitted he wasn't sure how much crimp was enough crimp. When I started loading 45-70 I put a serious crimp on the casing as I showed above. I may be over doing, I guess. I am loading for a single shot now so perhaps I am over working my brass needlessly.

 

[Charlie98]

Depends on the loads and the rifle. The OP is loading Trapdoor level loads, any bullet with a proper roll crimp into the crimp groove will prevent bullet setback. If you are loading full-house 'modern lever-action' loads in an 1886 or 1895 Marlin, then you might need to think about a more aggressive crimp... with the understanding that you are going to pay the price in brass longevity.

 

[jambie]

Depends on the loads and the rifle. The OP is loading Trapdoor level loads, any bullet with a proper roll crimp into the crimp groove will prevent bullet setback. If you are loading full-house 'modern lever-action' loads in an 1886 or 1895 Marlin, then you might need to think about a more aggressive crimp... with the understanding that you are going to pay the price in brass longevity.

That makes sense as well. Eventually I’ll be working up full power loads for Montana camping
TR

 

[ericuda]

I honestly don't think a heavy crimp is needed in a lever action tube loaded rifle. Even heavy loads think about what happens. The recoil goes into your shoulder of course and the shells in the tube are sent forward and then back during recoil. I am sure not as smart as folks on here but I wonder what the actual force that is applied to the rounds is in the tube. It is a spring and not a blunt hammer so I am just curious.

 

[Charlie98]

Eventually I’ll be working up full power loads for Montana camping

Truthfully... and I've been there... Trappy loads will get it done. I'm not saying a fair load of IMR3031 under a 300grn JHP or a wide meplat cast isn't a good idea, but punishing yourself with some heavy load is not necessary. My Colorado camping load was a heavy 260grn JSP .45 Colt load... and I never felt want for something stronger.

 

[jambie]

Truthfully... and I've been there... Trappy loads will get it done. I'm not saying a fair load of IMR3031 under a 300grn JHP or a wide meplat cast isn't a good idea, but punishing yourself with some heavy load is not necessary. My Colorado camping load was a heavy 260grn JSP .45 Colt load... and I never felt want for something stronger.

Thanks for the insight. The only suitable powder I have is IMR 4064, so I’m gonna start with that, which is supposed to launch a 405 gr cast bullet at 1534 fps. This is from Hogdon’s website. We’ll see how that feels...
TR

 

[Charlie98]

I loaded some 405grn cast over 48grn IMR4064, out of my (26"?) Marlin 1895, I got 1650fps. They would probably have been great for a hunting load, but that isn't what I wanted them for. I wound up pulling almost 100 .45-70 cartridges (the IMR4064 load, and some with 4895 and 3031.) They were all way too much for me. My buddy, who was watching me shoot them off the sticks... still laughs at me. He said it was too painful for him to watch.

 

[ericuda]

Lol Charlie I hear ya. I have some 405's loaded up with 3031 that I just cringe at. Shooting should be fun. Some 5744 or trailboss makes it fun.

 

[Charlie98]

Some 5744

30grn IMR4198 and that 405grn bullet produces a nice 1400fps out of my 1885...