45-70 help
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32winspl
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I have 2 450 Marlins. One is the original 18" bbl with the 14 ports, the other is the 22" unported. Of them, I greatly prefer the latter. It has the pistol grip stock, is considerably quieter (still, USE ear protection), and is softer on the shoulder to shoot. Both are astonishingly accurate. I'm not sure what you could be thinking of shooting at that would require a mag-tube extension, but I'm sure one is available, I just don't remember where.
If you don't reload and want the extra power of the 450, by all means, go for it. The Hornady-loaded 450 is considerably more powerful than the Sammi-spec factory 45-70. If you do reload, get the 45-70 as brass (and factory rounds) are more plentiful and cheaper. You can also load it to equal the 450, and load a wider array of bullets than is available in factory 450.
The 45-70 is a round originally loaded with blackpowder and used in weak-actioned rifles (compared to modern rifles like the marlin 1895s, Blr, and such) and is therefore factory loaded to the lower pressures those old guns require. Since the manufacturer has no control over which guns (old or new) their ammo might be used in, they have to assume that it might be used in an old Trapdoor Springfield, and load it "down" to the original pressure levels; somewhere around 27000 psi or so. New rifles like the Marlin (in either 45-70 or 450 Marlin) can be loaded to around 42 or 44,000 psi. The reason the 450 Marlin cartridge came out was to take advantage of the extra pressure (power) potential, and with the belt, could be assured that the round could not accidently be loaded in any early rifles not suited to the much higher pressure level.
If you don't reload and want the extra power of the 450, by all means, go for it. The Hornady-loaded 450 is considerably more powerful than the Sammi-spec factory 45-70. If you do reload, get the 45-70 as brass (and factory rounds) are more plentiful and cheaper. You can also load it to equal the 450, and load a wider array of bullets than is available in factory 450.
The 45-70 is a round originally loaded with blackpowder and used in weak-actioned rifles (compared to modern rifles like the marlin 1895s, Blr, and such) and is therefore factory loaded to the lower pressures those old guns require. Since the manufacturer has no control over which guns (old or new) their ammo might be used in, they have to assume that it might be used in an old Trapdoor Springfield, and load it "down" to the original pressure levels; somewhere around 27000 psi or so. New rifles like the Marlin (in either 45-70 or 450 Marlin) can be loaded to around 42 or 44,000 psi. The reason the 450 Marlin cartridge came out was to take advantage of the extra pressure (power) potential, and with the belt, could be assured that the round could not accidently be loaded in any early rifles not suited to the much higher pressure level.
32winspl: That was great info. Thanks. I mostly want it for a high country camp gun. Something quick with the power for anything. We do have some big bears up here. Maybe the 450 or 45-70 is over kill, but if you can have only one rifle, it better get the job done. Thanks again.
O.S.O.K.
Member
45-70
I would opt for the 45-70 regardless. There are hot loadings from the likes of Buffalo Bore and Corbon if you want to push the peddle down. Otherwise there are many many other standard pressure loads available. The 450 Marlin is very limited in regards to factory loads.
The 18" is very handy but I too prefer the non-ported model and unless you are needing it to be compact to fit into some small space, I would also recommend the standard 20" barrel - just to get a little more sight radius for shooting with irons. That solves your magazine issue too.
If you do want to go with the 18" and extend the mag, just order one of the tubes intended for the 20" model and replace with that - will require a drill and tap of the bottom of the barrel where the end fits but other than that, should do the trick. If it's a tad too long, you can trim it back from the rear.
I would opt for the 45-70 regardless. There are hot loadings from the likes of Buffalo Bore and Corbon if you want to push the peddle down. Otherwise there are many many other standard pressure loads available. The 450 Marlin is very limited in regards to factory loads.
The 18" is very handy but I too prefer the non-ported model and unless you are needing it to be compact to fit into some small space, I would also recommend the standard 20" barrel - just to get a little more sight radius for shooting with irons. That solves your magazine issue too.
If you do want to go with the 18" and extend the mag, just order one of the tubes intended for the 20" model and replace with that - will require a drill and tap of the bottom of the barrel where the end fits but other than that, should do the trick. If it's a tad too long, you can trim it back from the rear.
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Colorado,
In the words of an old cattleman- if the critter you are shooting at is bigger and meaner than you the wise choice is to use what will let in a lot of air and let out a lot of blood!
Selena
In the words of an old cattleman- if the critter you are shooting at is bigger and meaner than you the wise choice is to use what will let in a lot of air and let out a lot of blood!
Selena
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32winspl
Member
Colorado, If you think you may be involved with bears, neither 45-70 or .450 would be considered overkill, nor would you be undergunned (see below). And I might be inclined to agree with O.S.O.K. in his recommendation of 45-70, though I do disagree with him regarding barrel length. It's only a minor point but, I'm unaware of Marlin making or having made an 1895 in 20" barrel length. I know they've been made in 18.5" (ported and unported), 22", 24" (the new XLR series), and 26" (1895 Cowboy). You might be able to adapt the mag tube from the 26" model, but I wouldn't make any change to the receiver end. A "tad" perhaps, (and a very small one at that) because it is not round like you might think, at the receiver end. It (the mag tube) has an off-set in the left side to allow the cartridges to be fed into it, on an angle, through the feed gate on the right side.
There are any number of hard-cast, heavyweight bullets (I'm not familliar with the offerings by Buffalo Bore and Corbon) know to have done quite well on big bears. Though I don't remember the barrel length or load specifics, I recall reading an article in a gun mag a year or so ago in which the author took his Marlin 1895 (45-70) to Africa and used it on Cape Buffalo. He was using handloaded ammo with 400+ grain hardcast lead bullets. He and his guide spotted the bull, and the guide told him to shoot. He did. If I remember correctly, the bull dropped dead on the spot. But the bullet passed through the bull and killed a cow some yards behind it that neither guide or shooter had seen, the bullet ending up just under the skin on the far side of the cow. I'm just guessing that punching a .458" hole through 6 or more feet meat and bone of mean and ornery animal might be just the ticket for bear. You might try a websearch for the article. I think it was entitled "45-70 goes to Africa".
There are any number of hard-cast, heavyweight bullets (I'm not familliar with the offerings by Buffalo Bore and Corbon) know to have done quite well on big bears. Though I don't remember the barrel length or load specifics, I recall reading an article in a gun mag a year or so ago in which the author took his Marlin 1895 (45-70) to Africa and used it on Cape Buffalo. He was using handloaded ammo with 400+ grain hardcast lead bullets. He and his guide spotted the bull, and the guide told him to shoot. He did. If I remember correctly, the bull dropped dead on the spot. But the bullet passed through the bull and killed a cow some yards behind it that neither guide or shooter had seen, the bullet ending up just under the skin on the far side of the cow. I'm just guessing that punching a .458" hole through 6 or more feet meat and bone of mean and ornery animal might be just the ticket for bear. You might try a websearch for the article. I think it was entitled "45-70 goes to Africa".
As far as I know, the current Guide Guns are not ported. Too many people did not like the noise. I've got one of the stainless, ported Guide Guns, and I've never thought it was particularly loud. I also prefer the straight grip. If you haven't guessed from the above, I'd strongly recommend the Guide Gun over the 22" version. Mine is one of the two rifles in my collection that I will never part with. It's so handy, powerful, and accurate.
I'd also recommend upgrading it with a set of XS Ghost Ring sights. It makes the rifle much easier to shoot accurately with the longer sight radius and increases the speed of target acquisition drastically. They're also nice for low-light.
I'd also recommend upgrading it with a set of XS Ghost Ring sights. It makes the rifle much easier to shoot accurately with the longer sight radius and increases the speed of target acquisition drastically. They're also nice for low-light.
JustsayMo
Member
I have Marlin 1895's in 18, 22 and 26" barrel lengths. For hunting I greatly favor the 18" for its portability. The 22" isn't bad either but the 26" seems to catch on everything.
The 26" does get 100-200 fps more than the 18" at levergun level 45-70 loads. At Factory and Springfield levels the velocity is nearly the same.
I've had both ported and unported barrels. I kept the unported because it was stainless. I never noticed a difference in report. Both are loud. With the same load the velocities were within 10 fps.
All are impressively accurate. If you want a peep I recommend the Skinner. Well made and looks good on the Guide Gun. A taller front sight will be required with nearly all of the peep/ghost ring sights out there.
Great guns. You don't need to push em hard to make quick kills. With a quality cast bullet going blackpowder speeds it will go lengthwise though Elk and Black Bear based on first hand knowledge. Once you hunt with it and witness its performance you'll wonder how you killed anything with a skinny bullet guns before.
The 26" does get 100-200 fps more than the 18" at levergun level 45-70 loads. At Factory and Springfield levels the velocity is nearly the same.
I've had both ported and unported barrels. I kept the unported because it was stainless. I never noticed a difference in report. Both are loud. With the same load the velocities were within 10 fps.
All are impressively accurate. If you want a peep I recommend the Skinner. Well made and looks good on the Guide Gun. A taller front sight will be required with nearly all of the peep/ghost ring sights out there.
Great guns. You don't need to push em hard to make quick kills. With a quality cast bullet going blackpowder speeds it will go lengthwise though Elk and Black Bear based on first hand knowledge. Once you hunt with it and witness its performance you'll wonder how you killed anything with a skinny bullet guns before.
xringer3
Member
I've shot several marlin 45/70s. I just got the 1895CB for my personal preference, but a buddie has the guide gun. While shooting it from the bench with some of his father-in-laws handloads, I was getting 1 inch groups at 100 yards, plenty more than what you need for bears up close, but nice to know the accuracy is there.
If I were using it for a camp gun to protect against bears, I'd just pick the guide gun as it's easy to pack and store, not to mention it's quick to get into action.
If I were using it for a camp gun to protect against bears, I'd just pick the guide gun as it's easy to pack and store, not to mention it's quick to get into action.
Seafarer12
Member
I say go with the 45/70 guide gun. Its portability makes up for any velocity loss over the 22in barrel. You have a wide selection of loads with it too. A 450 is pretty limited, they are just like the +p+ 45/70 loads without the option of lower power loads. I have one of the old models wih the porting and it is one of the handiest guns I own. If you do get one and plan on shooting it you should think about getting a cheap reloading rig. A few boxes worth of reloads will pay for the setup. As far as lengthening the tube, I have never considered doing it on mine.
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