I'm looking, and hoping to the future, that Ohio passes a straight walled case law for deer hunting. I have a 94AE in .44 Mag, but want another a little more powerful, deer rifle. What's y'all's opinion on the 444 over the 45-70, and Marlin, over Winchester? I'm looking hard at 18 1/2", and am also wandering how much the porting helps. I'll need to buy dies, but have bullets in .44, and also some .45 for acp rounds...can I use the .45's for the .45-70? I haven't looked into that yet. Thanks for the input....
.444 Marlin, or 45-70
- Thread starter Joshua M.
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45-70 ammunition will be available anywhere. 444 Marlin less so.
45-70 will kill anything on this continent. Against a thin-skinned deer it reminds me of Patton saying something about going through a goose.
45 ACP rounds are .452" diameter while 45-70 are .458"+
45 ACP bullets not designed for 45-70 impact speeds.
45-70 will kill anything on this continent. Against a thin-skinned deer it reminds me of Patton saying something about going through a goose.
45 ACP rounds are .452" diameter while 45-70 are .458"+
45 ACP bullets not designed for 45-70 impact speeds.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Really no greatly compelling reason to pick one over the other, unless you're looking for the most extreme top end power or you need to find ammo at the local big box store. If those things matter to you, the .45-70 wins.
Otherwise, 6 of one, half-dozen of the other. Big heavy bullet going at moderate speed.
For any deer that walks this earth, a mild, to moderate load from either one will get the job done with plenty of authority.
Otherwise, 6 of one, half-dozen of the other. Big heavy bullet going at moderate speed.
For any deer that walks this earth, a mild, to moderate load from either one will get the job done with plenty of authority.
horsemen61
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I'd go with the 45 70 if it were me
35Remfan
Member
45-70 for the simple reason ammo is easier to find and there is a much greater range of bullet weights in either factory loads or those available to the handloader.
Straight stock with an 18 1/2 barrel would be my choice in a Marlin. Winchester rifles are going to cost way more (for either an original or new manufactured) than a Marlin.
Straight stock with an 18 1/2 barrel would be my choice in a Marlin. Winchester rifles are going to cost way more (for either an original or new manufactured) than a Marlin.
Deog
Member
45/70 Marlin 1895g jm stamp, or jm stamped SBL.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
I'll put forth that if your 44 Mag carbine won't decisively kill a deer?
A .444 or 45-70 hit in the same place won't either.
But if you just want another rifle, that's a good enough excuse as any.
rc
A .444 or 45-70 hit in the same place won't either.
But if you just want another rifle, that's a good enough excuse as any.
rc
matrem
Member
There are two reasons I prefer .444 to .45/70.
One is because I wanted one as a teenager in the seventies yet couldn't afford it.
The second reason, and the only one that really matters; higher velocity is possible with .444 than .45/70 as both offer way plenty of "smoke" for deer.
Higher velocity means flatter trajectory, and after a couple of decades hunting deer with worse than .22lr trajectories.. I could be a bit prejudice towards higher velocities.
One is because I wanted one as a teenager in the seventies yet couldn't afford it.
The second reason, and the only one that really matters; higher velocity is possible with .444 than .45/70 as both offer way plenty of "smoke" for deer.
Higher velocity means flatter trajectory, and after a couple of decades hunting deer with worse than .22lr trajectories.. I could be a bit prejudice towards higher velocities.
Factory .444 is roughly equivalent to .45-70 SAAMI spec, but they don't overlap much except at the 300-gr bullet weight where they both throw a bullet around 2000 fps. That tends to be towards the top end for .444 and bottom end for .45-70 weight-wise. .45-70 can go much higher in weight and with boutique +P loads, higher in energy levels too.
osteodoc08
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Marlin 1895GS with JM stamp launching a 405gr WFNGC at 1750-1800fps. It will take anything in North America with authority......or realign your spine. Either way.
I'd go with the .444 if you reload. Plus...if Ohio goes with a straight wall case requirement the ammo manufacturers will climb on board and supply the market. Stock up with a couple or three boxes of bullets and you can keep yourself in ammo for a long time. Of course these arguments apply to the 45-70 also.
OrangePwrx9
Member
You were talking dies and bullets, so you must be a handloader. Once you get a supply of brass laid in, ammo availability shouldn't be an issue. What may be an issue (after the first blush of owning a very powerful rifle wears off) is which cartridge can be downloaded to a comfortable level most easily while still being effective on deer.
My reloading manual shows reduced loads for the .45-70, but the velocities are relatively low and the lightest bullet weight is 300 gr. If you load the 300 gr. to respectable velocities, I expect it would belt you pretty good.
The .444 OTOH, shows very good velocities with the 200, 225 and 240 gr. bullets. It would probably be a lot easier on the shoulder as well as flatter shooting. You might have to go to a premium bullet, however, to find something that'll hang together at the speeds the .444 can generate.
The fact that the .45-70's case capacity is much larger (4 cc compared to 3.3 cc for the .444) implies that reduced loads may well be less consistent in their performance than they would be in the smaller case of the .444. It also means the .45-70 will require more powder to deliver the same performance.
If deer hunting is the game for this rifle, I'd go with the .444. Moose or bear; .45-70...but even then the .444 would probably suffice.
My reloading manual shows reduced loads for the .45-70, but the velocities are relatively low and the lightest bullet weight is 300 gr. If you load the 300 gr. to respectable velocities, I expect it would belt you pretty good.
The .444 OTOH, shows very good velocities with the 200, 225 and 240 gr. bullets. It would probably be a lot easier on the shoulder as well as flatter shooting. You might have to go to a premium bullet, however, to find something that'll hang together at the speeds the .444 can generate.
The fact that the .45-70's case capacity is much larger (4 cc compared to 3.3 cc for the .444) implies that reduced loads may well be less consistent in their performance than they would be in the smaller case of the .444. It also means the .45-70 will require more powder to deliver the same performance.
If deer hunting is the game for this rifle, I'd go with the .444. Moose or bear; .45-70...but even then the .444 would probably suffice.
Since Marlin re-introduced the 45-70 in 1973 there has been no real need for the 444. It worked OK, but for years was plagued with 44 pistol bullets pistol bullets moving too fast.
If someone has one, better bullets are available today and it is a much better round and can come close to 45-70. If a 45-70 is using the old black powder equivalent loads it is more than adequate for deer, black bear etc. at close to moderate range with reasonable recoil. With todays hotter loads it is adequate for most anything in NA, but with excessive recoil. Not ideal by any means, but adequate.
If someone has one, better bullets are available today and it is a much better round and can come close to 45-70. If a 45-70 is using the old black powder equivalent loads it is more than adequate for deer, black bear etc. at close to moderate range with reasonable recoil. With todays hotter loads it is adequate for most anything in NA, but with excessive recoil. Not ideal by any means, but adequate.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
I haven't been following this real close but saw this from Buckeye Firearms Association:
If that is true of what is proposed it will open up rifle that shoots PCR (Pistol Caliber Rifle) like 357 and 44 magnum cartridges. I don't think it will include cartridges like the 444 Marlin or 45-70 Government. While it would be nice I just amn not sure those cartridges will happen in Ohio.
Ron
If that is true of what is proposed it will open up rifle that shoots PCR (Pistol Caliber Rifle) like 357 and 44 magnum cartridges. I don't think it will include cartridges like the 444 Marlin or 45-70 Government. While it would be nice I just amn not sure those cartridges will happen in Ohio.
Ron
DM~
Member
Make mine the .444 pleeease.
DM
DM
http://www2.ohiodnr.gov/news/post/o...er-proposed-deer-hunting-dates-and-bag-limits
Y'all have a one week gun season? That's quick. Anyway, this article lists the calibers somewhat near the end of the article. 45-120...man that must loosen some fillings.
Y'all have a one week gun season? That's quick. Anyway, this article lists the calibers somewhat near the end of the article. 45-120...man that must loosen some fillings.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
Thanks for the good listing:
I would opt for the 444 Marlin and only because I have one. I load both 444 Marlin and 45-70 the 45-70 from a trapdoor I had. Wouldn't mind adding a 45-70 lever gun if one comes along.
Ron
I agree with rcmodel, your 44 Magnum will do whatever needs to be done. When handguns were first allowed, I used a 44 magnum S&W M29-2 (6 1?2"Barrel). It worked. Eventually I outgrew my magnum lust and went to the 45 long Colt. Black powder and 260 grain lead bullets worked even better! Get the rifle cartridges if you like but handgun cartridges, from handguns, work.
eastbank
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i have shot deer with this first year marlin 45-70 with 350gr bullets at 1700fps and this winchester first year timber carbine 444 marlin with 265gr bullets at 1800fps,both kill like chain lighting. the other rifles are all in 45-70. eastbank.
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