.444 Marlin, or 45-70

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Robert said:
I have a 1895G and honestly, which hot hunting loads the recoil is brutal. Great little rifle for factory or pet hand loads but pushing a hard cast 405g bullet at 2000fps leaves a mark.
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Oww! That's 3598 foot pounds of muzzle energy and within 80% of a 458 Win Mag velocity with that bullet. Out of a lever action. :eek: Go ahead but I'm not that mad at the deer anymore. :)
 
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How do you know what rifle will shoot what loads safely in a 45/70. I am guessing that 45/70 Gov. Has a safe load limit of a certain pressure and a 405 gr bullet at 2000 + fps exceeds that published load. How do you know if you are telling someone to put a lever action grenade to their face? Is that the purpose of the .444, to have a standard modern high pressure load as opposed to an essentially wildcat 45/70 for safety reasons?
I am going to believe you know what you are doing but does Bubba?
 
d2wing said:
How do you know what rifle will shoot what loads safely in a 45/70. I am guessing that 45/70 Gov. Has a safe load limit of a certain pressure and a 405 gr bullet at 2000 + fps exceeds that published load. How do you know if you are telling someone to put a lever action grenade to their face? Is that the purpose of the .444, to have a standard modern high pressure load as opposed to an essentially wildcat 45/70 for safety reasons?
I am going to believe you know what you are doing but does Bubba?
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Well I am sitting here looking at a box of Remington 45-70 405 Grain Soft Points and the box label says "For Use In All Rifles". Now if I want to load some 45-70 my Hornady 9th edition as well as my other loading manuals calls out 45-70 Government (Trap Door), 45-70 Government (1895 Marlin), and 45-70 Government (Ruger #1). The Lyman manual is the same calling out specific loads for specific rifles in 45-70 Government including the cast bullet loads.

So in the case of hand loads the reloading manuals call out the known safe loads by rifle. Manufactured ammunition like the Remington I just mentioned call it out on the box.

Ron
 
Another question, I used to cast bullets, I used a hard cast load that used sized lubed bullets with gas checks. What velocity can you drive cast bullets at before you have to switch to jacketed. To me that would be a big plus, using cast bullets.
 
Personally I would go with the Rossi 92 in 454 Casull. it will use the 45 Colt or the 454 Casull. Both fit the straight walled pistol cartridge bill. the 45 Colt can be loaded to pretty mild to wild, and where the 45 Colt leaves off the 454 takes over. you can get a 300gr bullet up around 1,700 fps and a 395 up around 1,300 fps.

Pretty sure you got nothing in Ohio that it wouldn't knock down.
 
Marlin rifles are fantastic.

45-70 has a much broader range of bullets and loads.

Everything has @ one time fallen to the 45-70.
 
Sam, a properly sized bullet should fill the bore and not have blow by, also that is why I use gas checks. Lead melt is more a problem from the base of the bullet than the sides. None of that answers my question but if I get serious about it I can look it up. I would think one benefit would be to cast and prepare your own bullets rather than buy them. That way you can control the alloy, size shape and so on and it would be a defense against shortages.
 
there are very good cast bullets for sale out there in 500 bullet boxs,i use a 385gr hard cast.459 at 1600-1700fps and i have never recovered a bullet from any game shot with it, tho the ranges have not been far. i did recover a bullet from a large wild free range bull i shot and hit it head on,the bullet went threw the skull and neck and was found close to the spine right above the lungs and was badly mangled(i wish i weighted it). the only reason to hot load the 45-70 is to flatten the bullets path for a better chance to hit a animal at a greater distance.i have not tried the new flex tip bullets yet, but they may extend the range some. i own and shoot six 45-70,s and our gun club has a 1000yd range and its fun to go and shoot at those ranges,after you have dialed in the sights its pretty easy to hit the steel gongs(they are large) at the outter ranges they are four feet acrossed. eastbank.
 

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OP also asked if porting helped. I have a ported 454 and I did notice reduced rise and perceived less recoil after porting. I do not have a ported rifle but would think is would help. Any thoughts?
 
If you reload and have a modern rifle such as a Marlin, then the 45-70 can be more powerful than the 444. However, factory SAAMI spec 444 ammo is more powerful and flatter shooting than factory SAAMI spec 45-70.

If your intended target is deer, the potential power advantage of the 45-70 is moot. I can't see the point in putting up with the recoil of 45-70 hot loads for deer. A factory 444 load is more than powerful enough for the biggest deer that ever walked.

The one downside of the 444 is that it is teetering on the edge of obsolescence. Marlin hasn't made any in a while and who knows when (if?) they'll make more.
 
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d2wing said:
How do you know what rifle will shoot what loads safely in a 45/70. I am guessing that 45/70 Gov. Has a safe load limit of a certain pressure and a 405 gr bullet at 2000 + fps exceeds that published load. How do you know if you are telling someone to put a lever action grenade to their face? Is that the purpose of the .444, to have a standard modern high pressure load as opposed to an essentially wildcat 45/70 for safety reasons?
I am going to believe you know what you are doing but does Bubba?
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I think this was the idea behind the 450 marlin round. As for bubba, if he doesn't want to trouble himself reading the plethora of information available on the internet, in loading books, etc. , well he's pretty much on his own.
 
Thanks for helpful responses. I see that with proper data there are possibilities I had not thought of before. Especially for casting and hand loading. I agree that there is not much need to drive bullets at max speed.
 
I owned (and stupidly sold) a 45/70 Marlin 20 years ago. I just recently picked up a 444 because a local shop had a 70's model at a great price. The 444 was an impulse buy made easier by the fact that I already cast bullets for the 44 magnum.

If I had to choose without any other factors (like already owning molds/dies/brass) I would choose 45/70 based entirely on brass and bullet availability. Trajectory and velocity advantages of the 444 don't really matter because I wouldn't be taking either round along where I might be shooting very far.
 
Of those two (.444 and 45-70) I like the .444 better. Along with the reasons cited above, It has an excellent reputation for accuracy.

But consider the cartridges legal for handgun in the Ohio release.

Have you considered a T/C Encore with 460 S&W Kadahdin barrel? The 460 S&W is the highest velocity handgun cartridge in a major caliber of which I am aware (2000 fps). I have found it exceptionally easy to handload. According to the Lyman manual, it has a very wide tolerance in charge weight of H110 versus pressure. I use a Lee Hand Dipper for charging and a hand press for sizing and seating/crimping.

See http://www.thompson-barrels.com/main.asp?gclid=CMSk4f-g27wCFaZAMgod60sApQ

The Encore T/C factory barrel is about 20" and comes with a peep sight and bead. With a H110 hand-dipped load and 240 gr Hornady bullet made for 460 velocities (and my old eyes) I can get 3" groups at 100 yrds. The velocity is estimated to be 2000+ fps. Hiwever (as you might expect) the recoil is a bit stout. You also have to be comfortable enough with your own abilities to use a single-shot for hunting.

Another thing: While a 454 Csl is a stretched 45 Colt, the 460 S&W is a stretched 454 Csl. You can shoot both in the 460 S&W barrel. You can also load it WAY down and use 45 ACP bullets.

And, IF you get the Encore, you can pick up a 45-70 barrel later.
 
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What we have here gentlemen is the "Paralysis of analysis." Pick one...shoot the dang thing...be happy>>> :)
 
I love my 45/70s and would reccomend that it's a little easier getting brass and factory loads. If you do go 444 you need to watch the rate of twist and which type rifling it has if you want to shoot heavy bullets and or lead.
Early 444s had a slow 1 in 38" microgroove rifled barrels that work good with jacketed bullets up to the 265gr hornady but accuracy with 300s and lead bullets can suffer greatly.
 
matrem said:
There are two reasons I prefer .444 to .45/70.

One is because I wanted one as a teenager in the seventies yet couldn't afford it.

The second reason, and the only one that really matters; higher velocity is possible with .444 than .45/70 as both offer way plenty of "smoke" for deer.

Higher velocity means flatter trajectory, and after a couple of decades hunting deer with worse than .22lr trajectories.. I could be a bit prejudice towards higher velocities.
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Yes the 444 might go a little faster but they are pistol bullets unless someone has made new bullet. The 45/70 uses rifle bullets probably with more sectional density if it really matters
 
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