45-70 With 365 Grain Cast Bullets

[Bazoo]

I'm about to start a new reloading adventure, loading for a Winchester 1886 (Miroku) in 45-70. The only powders I have that are suitable are Unique and IMR 3031. The bullets I'll be using are Matt's 458 365 RF, which has a base to crimp measurement of .530. I was able to find measurements and data for the Lyman 457124 which has a base to crimp measurement of .620.

I appreciate anyone that could offer advice on either of these bullets or using either Unique or IMR3031 in 45-70. I'm inclined to use 3031 simply to save my limited supply of Unique for my 44 Special loads.

I don't know that I have a goal or purpose for these loads. Mostly I'm just learning the caliber and rifle.

Thanks for reading,
Bazoo

 

[dobedo]

Hear are some loads for 400 grain and 350 grain. Finding exact loads for 365 grain heads could be an issue. One thing I have learned is buy heads for known powder loads this way you do not have to experiment. 350 grain Berrys works very well in the 45/70 and there are many known loads.

 

[Charlie98]

I'll run some numbers up for you on QuickLoad, and PM you the results.

ETA: Actually... that Lyman data you have posted, for the 385grn bullet, will work just fine. That was the same data I used when I was loading the LaserCast 350's some years ago, and basically mirrors what QL would tell me.


I really like the 350'ish grain .45 bullets for the big boomer. You can get some decent velocity without punishing your shoulder quite as much, and still turn in some decent accuracy.

FWIW, a 'starting charge' of IMR3031 in a 'modern lever-action' load is going to be pretty stout. I speak from experience. I would load 5 up with your potential load... and see what you think of them. The 1886 is a great rifle, and the weight will soak up some of that recoil, but if you are just loading these for fun, after about 10 rounds of it, it will become UNfun, unless you are just a recoil junkie.

See those? That's nearly 100 .45-70's I had to pull... my test ladders of starting charges of IMR's 3031, 4895, and 4064, all in the 57-58grn range. I'm not afraid of recoil, but boy howdy! after about 20 of those, I couldn't take it anymore.

My suggestion is to find IMR4198, H4198, or AA5744, and load over that. At the outside, you can use IMR4227 or 2400. All of those are a bit faster than IMR3031, but they do reduced velocity (Trapdoor) loads much better than IMR3031. You can actually use Unique... 15grn Unique under a ~350grn bullet is a nice shooter, but I don't like all that air space in that coffee can of a case the .45-70 presents, unless you want to bother with case filler, like Dacron.

These days, my standard load is 30grn IMR4198 under a 385grn RN cast, for an easy shooting 1400fps, or 30grn IMR4198 with a 405grn FP/GC cast, for 1325fps.

 

[Armored farmer]

I am closely following this thread because I have only recently started loading the 45-70.
I am very Excited about the cartridge as it is a perfect fit for my shooting and hunting style.
I have only loaded 60 rounds of 45-70 and only fired about 35 of those.....34 to zero my rifle scope, and one to take a nice 8pt buck on opening morning this season.
My load was 12.5gr Unique under a 340grLee cast bullet.
It was cloverleaf accurate at 100yds, and through and through my buck, but quickly loosing steam and was marking about 18" low at 200yds.

 

[AJC1]

I'll run some numbers up for you on QuickLoad, and PM you the results.

ETA: Actually... that Lyman data you have posted, for the 385grn bullet, will work just fine. That was the same data I used when I was loading the LaserCast 350's some years ago, and basically mirrors what QL would tell me.


I really like the 350'ish grain .45 bullets for the big boomer. You can get some decent velocity without punishing your shoulder quite as much, and still turn in some decent accuracy.

FWIW, a 'starting charge' of IMR3031 in a 'modern lever-action' load is going to be pretty stout. I speak from experience. I would load 5 up with your potential load... and see what you think of them. The 1886 is a great rifle, and the weight will soak up some of that recoil, but if you are just loading these for fun, after about 10 rounds of it, it will become UNfun, unless you are just a recoil junkie.

See those? That's nearly 100 .45-70's I had to pull... my test ladders of starting charges of IMR's 3031, 4895, and 4064, all in the 57-58grn range. I'm not afraid of recoil, but boy howdy! after about 20 of those, I couldn't take it anymore.

My suggestion is to find IMR4198, H4198, or AA5744, and load over that. At the outside, you can use IMR4227 or 2400. All of those are a bit faster than IMR3031, but they do reduced velocity (Trapdoor) loads much better than IMR3031. You can actually use Unique... 15grn Unique under a ~350grn bullet is a nice shooter, but I don't like all that air space in that coffee can of a case the .45-70 presents, unless you want to bother with case filler, like Dacron.

These days, my standard load is 30grn IMR4198 under a 385grn RN cast, for an easy shooting 1400fps, or 30grn IMR4198 with a 405grn FP/GC cast, for 1325fps.

Matches my experience. A start lever load from the lyman cast 4th with the 350 and 4227 was plenty on the shoulder. I went up three slots in half grain increments and it just got worse. The starting load of 4198 was worse and I worked both directions from start. The less than start loads using 4198 were more recoil than the start of 4227. It's way worse than shooting the military mossburgs with their buck load and I hate that.

 

[Charlie98]

I found my recoil threshold was right in the 1400-1500fps range, with a 350-405grn bullet. A little more, a little less... depending on the powder and the bullet... but by and large that's my goal.

Thing is... the .45-70 is no joke. It's a lot of cartridge, throwing a lot of bullet... recoil is going to be there. I wear a PAST shooting pad, which helps, but bullet weight and load development are going to be the only way to control the recoil.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I'll run some numbers up for you on QuickLoad, and PM you the results.

ETA: Actually... that Lyman data you have posted, for the 385grn bullet, will work just fine. That was the same data I used when I was loading the LaserCast 350's some years ago, and basically mirrors what QL would tell me.


I really like the 350'ish grain .45 bullets for the big boomer. You can get some decent velocity without punishing your shoulder quite as much, and still turn in some decent accuracy.

FWIW, a 'starting charge' of IMR3031 in a 'modern lever-action' load is going to be pretty stout. I speak from experience. I would load 5 up with your potential load... and see what you think of them. The 1886 is a great rifle, and the weight will soak up some of that recoil, but if you are just loading these for fun, after about 10 rounds of it, it will become UNfun, unless you are just a recoil junkie.

See those? That's nearly 100 .45-70's I had to pull... my test ladders of starting charges of IMR's 3031, 4895, and 4064, all in the 57-58grn range. I'm not afraid of recoil, but boy howdy! after about 20 of those, I couldn't take it anymore.

My suggestion is to find IMR4198, H4198, or AA5744, and load over that. At the outside, you can use IMR4227 or 2400. All of those are a bit faster than IMR3031, but they do reduced velocity (Trapdoor) loads much better than IMR3031. You can actually use Unique... 15grn Unique under a ~350grn bullet is a nice shooter, but I don't like all that air space in that coffee can of a case the .45-70 presents, unless you want to bother with case filler, like Dacron.

These days, my standard load is 30grn IMR4198 under a 385grn RN cast, for an easy shooting 1400fps, or 30grn IMR4198 with a 405grn FP/GC cast, for 1325fps.

Beat me to it. IMR 4198 is the .45-70 lever guns best friend.

 

[Charlie98]

Beat me to it. IMR 4198 is the .45-70 lever guns best friend.

6-7 years ago, I would have given a completely different answer... Imma say that .45-70 recoil knocked some sense into me...

Cast bullets in rifle cartridges, I don't think there is anything better. I load .30-30, .308, .348WCF, and the .45-70 with cast bullets... and IMR4198 is always the Right Answer.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

6-7 years ago, I would have given a completely different answer... Imma say that .45-70 recoil knocked some sense into me...

Cast bullets in rifle cartridges, I don't think there is anything better. I load .30-30, .308, .348WCF, and the .45-70 with cast bullets... and IMR4198 is always the Right Answer.

My first hunting gun was a 6-1/2” Ruger Blackhawk .357Mag loaded with a 160gr. Speer 1/2-jacket and a max load of Unique. I was 10 and had been shooting .22 rifles and a Ruger SS Single-Six for a couple of years and after trying out a couple of shotguns, a .243 bolt gun and a .30-30 M94 lever, my uncle Charlie decided I was best suited to a single-action revolver. It kicked like a painted pony! LOL!!!
I kinda grew up learning to tame recoil, not like it.

 

[Show Me]

FYI. 300 GR lyman FNGC at 1600 with 5744 is my load when the scope comes off. So many options

 

[AJC1]

My first hunting gun was a 6-1/2” Ruger Blackhawk .357Mag loaded with a 160gr. Speer 1/2-jacket and a max load of Unique. I was 10 and had been shooting .22 rifles and a Ruger SS Single-Six for a couple of years and after trying out a couple of shotguns, a .243 bolt gun and a .30-30 M94 lever, my uncle Charlie decided I was best suited to a single-action revolver. It kicked like a painted pony! LOL!!!
I kinda grew up learning to tame recoil, not like it.

For killing paper a 6br has all the recoil you'll ever need. Hunting is apparently a brutal sport for both ends.....

 

[dobedo]

Attached are some of my loads that I have used.

 

[Charlie98]

Speer 1/2-jacket and a max load of Unique.

That was my recipe for the .41... my brother and I flat wore his pistol out with those. Max load? There is 'max load' and then there is maaaaaax load... (wink, wink, nudge, nudge.)


As far as the OP is concerned, I had a Browning 1886 back in the day. It is still The One Rifle I Regret Selling... to this day. Paid $700 for it in a backwoods gun shop north of Columbus, Ohio, NIB. My reloading notes tell me I wasn't shy about recoil... big loads of H322, H4895, and RL7... with the Remington 405grn JSP! No way I'd go there, now.

 

[Bazoo]

I appreciate all the replies. If I had some 4198, I would use that. All I have for rifle powder is 3031 though.

 

[Frulk]

That Matt’s 365 RF is a dead sexy beast. Must be the gas check that does it for me. The lead bullet version of an Army M37 truck.

 

[Show Me]

I appreciate all the replies. If I had some 4198, I would use that. All I have for rifle powder is 3031 though.

Good stuff

 

[AJC1]

I appreciate all the replies. If I had some 4198, I would use that. All I have for rifle powder is 3031 though.

It will definitely work, you may just rember each shot.... definitely start at start. Trapdoor loads if your not looming to be brutalized.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

It will definitely work, you may just rember each shot.... definitely start at start. Trapdoor loads if you’re not looming to be brutalized.

The 385gr IMR 3031 load for my Marlin is one of those “gap” loads. I think I mentioned it before - loading between the tiers - but the bullet I use is heavier and not gas checked.


No loading info to follow since I’m way low for 1895 Marlin loads and way high for 1873 Trapdoor loads.

 

[AJC1]

The 385gr IMR 3031 load for my Marlin is one of those “gap” loads. I think I mentioned it before - loading between the tiers - but the bullet I use is heavier and not gas checked.
View attachment 1182323

No loading info to follow since I’m way low for 1895 Marlin loads and way high for 1873 Trapdoor loads.

I really like tweener loads because they show understanding that case fill is sufficient and burn rate is correct, but full power is not required or desired. It's the mental exercise that makes this science interesting.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I really like tweener loads because they show understanding that case fill is sufficient and burn rate is correct, but full power is not required or desired. It's the mental exercise that makes this science interesting.

Yes, exactly. But the lower smokeless loads recommend a filler for proper powder alignment while the higher smokeless loads do not. Most people use Dacron but I prefer carded wool - it’s going to turn completely to carbon without leaving a plastic residue in the barrel. And I’m not fond of the smell of burning Dacron.
The details are where the real fun begins.
I consider reloading more craft and art than science. But that’s just me.

 

[Charlie98]

It just goes to show there can be benefit in trodding out into the Forbidden Never-Never Land between Trappy loads, and Lever-action loads. Maybe call them Trapdoor +P....

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

It just goes to show there can be benefit in trodding out into the Forbidden Never-Never Land between Trappy loads, and Lever-action loads. Maybe call them Trapdoor +P....

Or how about “special light magnum”? You know, to improve control and all that

 

[Charlie98]

Or how about “special light magnum”? You know, to improve control and all that

I like to be inclusive and sustainable (whatever that means...)

Maybe I'll call it the .45-70 Uphill Light Magnum Standard Westerner Yankee +P... or ULMSWY+P. That should get people to dump the 6.5ManBun for the Newest, Bestest cartridge evarrrrr... or at least for this year.

EGADS! No, no, no... not .45-70... 12mm ULMSWY+P

 

[Bazoo]

I'll probably start with 1886 starting loads and probably will be pretty darn happy. It's my first foray into 45-70. I do not want to get into using a filler. Long as my loads are safe I'll be happy. I appreciate everyone sharing.

 

[Bazoo]

I don't know where I got my measurements (I can't find it again) for the Lyman 457124 I mentioned previously, but the crimp to base measurement is .513 according to my notes and buffaloarms which has some measurements listed for this bullet. Not a huge mistake but I wanted to correct it.