I've been driving for many years and have never been in a car accident. If car insurance wasn't required, would I still have it? yes. Do I like having homeowners insurance, though it's not mandatory? yes. medical insurance though I really never get sick? yes. A sidearm in case I need it? yes. I was attacked by dogs twice as a child, would have loved my Kimber back then. Having to use it one time will make up for all the years of carrying, and if I don't have to use it, I can be happy I've not had to fire expensive ammo!!!
45 acp 230 gr FMJ for defense, why not?
- Thread starter ARS1911
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I've been driving for many years and have never been in a car accident. If car insurance wasn't required, would I still have it? yes. Do I like having homeowners insurance, though it's not mandatory? yes. medical insurance though I really never get sick? yes. A sidearm in case I need it? yes. I was attacked by dogs twice as a child, would have loved my Kimber back then. Having to use it one time will make up for all the years of carrying, and if I don't have to use it, I can be happy I've not had to fire expensive ammo!!!
Why not?
Because a properly performing expanding bullet will do more damage. That statement does assume that the bullet expands, which is not a certainty.
Stopping power primarily depends upon the threat taking sufficient damage to bleed enough to lose blood pressure and become incapacitated. I say primarily because although, nerve insult to the brain or spinal cord can also stop the threat these are much harder to hit than shooting "center of mass". So, it become critical that the bullet encounter something critical inside of the threat in such a manner as to cause incapacitation in a relatively short time. This requires a dependable depth of penetration (some say 18") under all conceivable circumstances. Even a heart shot perp can still fight for several seconds.
goose2
Member
For self defense my gun gets what it and I shoot the best. I have some pretty good LRN 230g loads that my gun and I shoot pretty straight.
PX15
Member
JMOfartO:
I believe the reason the military uses fmj is because the US is a signatory to the Geneva Convention, which prohibits jhp's and the like, not be cause it is a more effective man-stopper than a jhp.
Could be wrong..
As for the pros and cons of the 45ACP round as a self defense tool, or "manstopper", heck I think the experts agree that NO pistol/revolver round is perfect for that job..
If you are going to a gunfight, take a 12ga.
Having said that, 99% of the time my carry weapon is an LWS380, in a rear pocket (wallet style) holster primed with 6+1 Speer Gold Dots jhp's. IF my wife and I are traveling and wardrobe and other circumstances allow I also take along a CS45 in my FIST Kydex IWB holster. My chosen round for the Smith is the DoubleTap 185gn jhp (Gold Dot)which moves along at approximately 1225fps (from a 5" barrel, which the CS45 doesn't have)... I love the DT round in 9mm, and in 45cal it functions perfectly in my compact CS45, so until something better comes along, I'm sticking with it.
But most of the time it's just me and my little old Seecamp..
And surprisingly, I feel adequately armed with just the Seecamp... Not as well as with the CS45 of course, but here in SE Ga. it's simply too hot and humid a great portion of the year to easily conceal the larger pistol, and while the 380 rd. isn't overwhelming, it beats the crap out of not having a firearm with you at all.....
But folks, if you are carrying a firearm for personal protection you'd be hard pressed to pick a better caliber than the trusty old 45ACP, ball or jhp ..
Just personal opinion, no offense to those folks who might disagree.
Best Wishes,
Jesse
I believe the reason the military uses fmj is because the US is a signatory to the Geneva Convention, which prohibits jhp's and the like, not be cause it is a more effective man-stopper than a jhp.
Could be wrong..
As for the pros and cons of the 45ACP round as a self defense tool, or "manstopper", heck I think the experts agree that NO pistol/revolver round is perfect for that job..
If you are going to a gunfight, take a 12ga.
Having said that, 99% of the time my carry weapon is an LWS380, in a rear pocket (wallet style) holster primed with 6+1 Speer Gold Dots jhp's. IF my wife and I are traveling and wardrobe and other circumstances allow I also take along a CS45 in my FIST Kydex IWB holster. My chosen round for the Smith is the DoubleTap 185gn jhp (Gold Dot)which moves along at approximately 1225fps (from a 5" barrel, which the CS45 doesn't have)... I love the DT round in 9mm, and in 45cal it functions perfectly in my compact CS45, so until something better comes along, I'm sticking with it.
But most of the time it's just me and my little old Seecamp..
And surprisingly, I feel adequately armed with just the Seecamp... Not as well as with the CS45 of course, but here in SE Ga. it's simply too hot and humid a great portion of the year to easily conceal the larger pistol, and while the 380 rd. isn't overwhelming, it beats the crap out of not having a firearm with you at all.....
But folks, if you are carrying a firearm for personal protection you'd be hard pressed to pick a better caliber than the trusty old 45ACP, ball or jhp ..
Just personal opinion, no offense to those folks who might disagree.
Best Wishes,
Jesse
mljdeckard
Member
You are wrong. The Hague Accords forbid ammunition designed to expand. We never signed it but abide by it anyway for some reason no one seems to remember. Note, snipers use BTHP bullets, with the rationale, "The hollow-point in this case is not designed to expand, but rather to shift the center of gravity to the rear of the bullet. It MIGHT ALSO expand, but that's not what it was DESIGNED to do."
I carry 230 gr HSTs, but if for some reason I was stuck with hardball, especially in a war situation, I would be fully confident it would do its job. I would feel about the same with a 9mm with JHP ammo. If I deployed to some remote corner of the war, and was assured by my command that I could carry any sidearm I could get my hands on as long as I used hardball ammo, I would immediately buy or import a 1911 in parts if necessary, and load it up with 230 gr hardball. This combination has probably saved more soldiers' lives than any other gun/ammo combination.
I carry 230 gr HSTs, but if for some reason I was stuck with hardball, especially in a war situation, I would be fully confident it would do its job. I would feel about the same with a 9mm with JHP ammo. If I deployed to some remote corner of the war, and was assured by my command that I could carry any sidearm I could get my hands on as long as I used hardball ammo, I would immediately buy or import a 1911 in parts if necessary, and load it up with 230 gr hardball. This combination has probably saved more soldiers' lives than any other gun/ammo combination.
Deanimator
Member
1. The reason why it's a "hollowpoint" is that unlike a conventional FMJ bullet, it's drawn from the base to the tip, rather than from the tip to the base. Optimum accuracy requires absolutely the most consistency achieveable in base dimensions, and base stability. Virtually EVERY target oriented rifle bullet is drawn from base to tip.
2. I've never seen any evidence that BTHPs expand. Typically, the jacket's too thick and no design effort is expended to see that it does. Instead, consistency of jacket thickness is heavily emphasized. They don't expand. They may however shear in half, and or fragment. But typical FMJs do as well, usually going base first upon impact with flesh and shearing in half at the cannelure.
PX15
Member
mljdeckard:
Well heck, been wrong before..
I was thinking the US signed the original 12 Aug 1949 Geneva Convention agreement on 12-8-1949, and then signed the update amendment on 2-8-1955.
Best Wishes,
Jesse
Well heck, been wrong before..
I was thinking the US signed the original 12 Aug 1949 Geneva Convention agreement on 12-8-1949, and then signed the update amendment on 2-8-1955.
Best Wishes,
Jesse
We (the US) never signed the Hague Accords, although we have abided by them throughout history. The round in my chamber is a 230 gr .45 HST HP +P, the remainder are FMJ because of feeding (reliability). Why?
Over penetration endangers innocent parties and is less effective. If the HST fed as well, I would load with same.
The theory: eliminate the threat.
D
Over penetration endangers innocent parties and is less effective. If the HST fed as well, I would load with same.
The theory: eliminate the threat.
D
Galadren
Member
Indeed. The reason we've never signed anything is so that if we ever got into a situation where we decided it was necessary to go against them we could say "hey! we never signed it" which in this day and age wouldn't mean crap, but it is what it is.
Anyway, FMJ may be good enough, but why settle for good enough when JHP is the best tool for the job?
Anyway, FMJ may be good enough, but why settle for good enough when JHP is the best tool for the job?
usmc1371
Member
From my personal experince in Iraq feb to sep 2005 and 2006 only in the movies do people get hit with one round and fall down/die instantly Unless that round strikes the brain/spinal cord/pelvic bone. It is actuly hard to find 5.56 entry holes alot of the time because the skin stretches and contracts so much. I was very much not impresed with 9mm hardball. I was very impresed with 12G buck shot, they may not expand but 7 or so holes at one time is a good thing. Back in the real world I carry a 45 with golden sabers because its accurate and 100% feeds good. IF it expands great if not well its still a 45.
Combat engineer USMC
Combat engineer USMC
Davionmaximus
Member
I carry JHP in my weapons that I carry for personal protection. Why not??
For a few bucks more I give myself a slight edge over standard ball ammo.
For a few bucks more I give myself a slight edge over standard ball ammo.
FMJ vs. JHP
The reason the military uses FMJ ammo is because of the Geneva Conv. rules and the Hague Accords. But another reason the military likes them is that a full metal jacket causes a lot of NON- LETHAL wounding, causing the wounded soldier at least two more soldiers to have to carry him to safety. This takes 3 guys out of any fight and tactically makes more sense than just killing one soldier. War is ugly . If you or I with our CC weapon kill an innocent bystander with a FMJ 45ACP or any other FMJ bullet in a crowded mall or anywhere trying to take out a BG, a lawyer in court will make us TOAST ! Get a JHP and just know that no LE agencies in any State I know of wants it's officers to carry FMJs on duty.
The reason the military uses FMJ ammo is because of the Geneva Conv. rules and the Hague Accords. But another reason the military likes them is that a full metal jacket causes a lot of NON- LETHAL wounding, causing the wounded soldier at least two more soldiers to have to carry him to safety. This takes 3 guys out of any fight and tactically makes more sense than just killing one soldier. War is ugly . If you or I with our CC weapon kill an innocent bystander with a FMJ 45ACP or any other FMJ bullet in a crowded mall or anywhere trying to take out a BG, a lawyer in court will make us TOAST ! Get a JHP and just know that no LE agencies in any State I know of wants it's officers to carry FMJs on duty.
JBinMontana
Member
Right now is the season for heavier coats and clothing, so I'm using 230-gr FMJ - 2 to centre mass and 1 to the head as the "Mozambique Drill" is still used today.. simply because it works to stop the threat.
Darth AkSarBen
Member
+1 with usmc1371!! I carry Remington Golden Saber 180gr .45 standard velocity, first magazine. I have the same, but +p in the spare magazine.
Even with the standards, I shot a test the other day, though several layers of cotton hand towels, into jugs of water and recovered the bullet in the a well expanded condition. Only thing is the lead and copper had separated, but that just makes it a bit better in my thoughts.
Even if the Remington Golden Saber would not expand all the time, I am still left with a bullet that 1.) feeds reliably 2.) still .45 caliber size.
FMJ will never get any bigger given their structure
JHP should get bigger, but if not, rule 2 above still applies.
Also adding that next to my reloads with Rainier coated bullets, same weight, I and my Taurus 24/7 Pro like this bullet for accuracy. It is the 2nd most accurate bullet I shoot. First is the Ranier for target practice. However, if you study the design of the Golden Saber bullet, it has been designed to be very accurate in the way the base grips the lands and grooves of the rifling. You can also buy these save EXACT bullets for handloading.... just in case you want to stock up on something in the reloading sector, if ammo becomes an issue later on in legislature.
Even with the standards, I shot a test the other day, though several layers of cotton hand towels, into jugs of water and recovered the bullet in the a well expanded condition. Only thing is the lead and copper had separated, but that just makes it a bit better in my thoughts.
Even if the Remington Golden Saber would not expand all the time, I am still left with a bullet that 1.) feeds reliably 2.) still .45 caliber size.
FMJ will never get any bigger given their structure
JHP should get bigger, but if not, rule 2 above still applies.
Also adding that next to my reloads with Rainier coated bullets, same weight, I and my Taurus 24/7 Pro like this bullet for accuracy. It is the 2nd most accurate bullet I shoot. First is the Ranier for target practice. However, if you study the design of the Golden Saber bullet, it has been designed to be very accurate in the way the base grips the lands and grooves of the rifling. You can also buy these save EXACT bullets for handloading.... just in case you want to stock up on something in the reloading sector, if ammo becomes an issue later on in legislature.
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SrDedosRapidos
Member
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I had an incident where my 1911 was fired inside a condo and was loaded up with 230gr ball.
The round went though a door, 2 sheets of drywall, one side of a plastic storage bin and several thin children's books within before lodging itself in the cover of "Where the Wild Things Are". The bullet recovered had little deformation and caused little damage to both the door and the wall.
It did in fact "zip straight through" and took little to no collateral material with it.
Knowing that and having experienced it first hand, i wouldn't trust Ball to stop a BG, especially without hurting something behind him.
The round went though a door, 2 sheets of drywall, one side of a plastic storage bin and several thin children's books within before lodging itself in the cover of "Where the Wild Things Are". The bullet recovered had little deformation and caused little damage to both the door and the wall.
It did in fact "zip straight through" and took little to no collateral material with it.
Knowing that and having experienced it first hand, i wouldn't trust Ball to stop a BG, especially without hurting something behind him.
Ken Rainey
Member
Well, SrDedosRapidos, a hollowpoint would have performed pretty much the same way going thru those materials....Unless the door was solid wood, then a hollowpoint might have deformed or even started to shed it's jacket...if it was a standard indoor hollow door, then not much would have happened to the HP except to fill it's hollowpoint and continue on like the FMJ did....hitting flesh and bone can't be compared to sheetrock....
230 FMJ is not a bad defensive round...a hollowpoint 230 may (should?) be better but then again, it may not...it may make a difference but then again, it may not...just how much of a difference do you think it can possibly make? If your shot with the hollowpoint would end the reason you were shooting in the first place, then the same shot with a FMJ would most likely have ended it as well and vice versa. A hollowpoint does not make up for poor shot placement or misses. The good thing about standard 230 FMJ is that with a solid hit, it's not overpenetrative...it may seem that it would be since some other FMJ ammo is, but since it starts out slow and then slows down so much during it's travel thru a body hitting the stretching skin, muscle, bone, organs, and then maybe more stretching skin that if it does make it thru it won't go far. Of course, as with any other substantial caliber, peripheral hits won't slow it down near as much whether it's FMJ or HP....So, we're back to shot placement after all!...
Another thing that crosses my mind when people carry on about a FMJ bullet passing thru the "bad guy" and hitting an innocent is that it's also quite possible that you will miss your intended target and that bullet hit an innocent, now, in either case, if you were that innocent that was getting hit would you want it to be a hollowpoint or a FMJ ??? I know, neither...but it all goes to show just how important shot placement is - along with realizing what's on the other side of your "bad guy". Proper shot placement will end your defensive fire (and liability) quicker than anything else...it's also very hard to do in defensive situations....make yourself keep a cool head....breathe and react and only shoot when you (reasonably) know you can hit and it's safe to do so and then, whether your using a 230 FMJ or a HP won't make much difference. Now excuse me while I get down off the soapbox....
230 FMJ is not a bad defensive round...a hollowpoint 230 may (should?) be better but then again, it may not...it may make a difference but then again, it may not...just how much of a difference do you think it can possibly make? If your shot with the hollowpoint would end the reason you were shooting in the first place, then the same shot with a FMJ would most likely have ended it as well and vice versa. A hollowpoint does not make up for poor shot placement or misses. The good thing about standard 230 FMJ is that with a solid hit, it's not overpenetrative...it may seem that it would be since some other FMJ ammo is, but since it starts out slow and then slows down so much during it's travel thru a body hitting the stretching skin, muscle, bone, organs, and then maybe more stretching skin that if it does make it thru it won't go far. Of course, as with any other substantial caliber, peripheral hits won't slow it down near as much whether it's FMJ or HP....So, we're back to shot placement after all!...
Another thing that crosses my mind when people carry on about a FMJ bullet passing thru the "bad guy" and hitting an innocent is that it's also quite possible that you will miss your intended target and that bullet hit an innocent, now, in either case, if you were that innocent that was getting hit would you want it to be a hollowpoint or a FMJ ??? I know, neither...but it all goes to show just how important shot placement is - along with realizing what's on the other side of your "bad guy". Proper shot placement will end your defensive fire (and liability) quicker than anything else...it's also very hard to do in defensive situations....make yourself keep a cool head....breathe and react and only shoot when you (reasonably) know you can hit and it's safe to do so and then, whether your using a 230 FMJ or a HP won't make much difference. Now excuse me while I get down off the soapbox....
krs
Member
FMJ .45 ACP, hardball expands just fine:
1.16"
1.16"
SrDedosRapidos
Member
- Joined
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but what did that hit?
BushyGuy
Member
i rather use FMJ then JHP for my 1911 cuz a fmj that works is better then a JHP that jams.
FMj is good for the .45 acp but not good enough for the 9mm, also the FMJ for .45 is great for SHTF and reliable feeds in my gun. the JHp is over rated and overpriced for practice i can do better with the ball ammo -its shot placement that counts.
Another good reason .45 acp ball ammo is more effective then the JHp at longer ranges it will still be effective out to 100 yards.
FMj is good for the .45 acp but not good enough for the 9mm, also the FMJ for .45 is great for SHTF and reliable feeds in my gun. the JHp is over rated and overpriced for practice i can do better with the ball ammo -its shot placement that counts.
Another good reason .45 acp ball ammo is more effective then the JHp at longer ranges it will still be effective out to 100 yards.
BushyGuy
Member
.45 acp is very effective even with ball ammo more then people assume to think.
LiveLife
Member
There was an accidental discharge reported in the news during "gun cleaning" out of a short barreled 3" 45 Pistol. The Federal HydraShok JHP round went through the drywall and stucco of the wall and through the adjacent building's stucco and drywall then finally got dislodged in the wood frame of the couch. The drywall apparently packed the hollow of the bullet and did not expand. The retrieved bullet was minimally deformed, mostly when the round hit the couch frame.
Interesting conversation. I know several handgun hunters that use hard cast .45 caliber bullets, albeit in heavy weights that routinely drop very large African and North American animals with little or no expansion. The key in this instance is penetration. Hollow points dont have the penetration for hunting.
If course this is not .45 ACP but .45 caliber.
If course this is not .45 ACP but .45 caliber.
JTQ
Member
A point I'm also intrigued with.
This is most evident when using a round that is marginal for the task at hand, hunters always look for more penetration rather than expansion.
This is most evident when using a round that is marginal for the task at hand, hunters always look for more penetration rather than expansion.
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