45 bottlenecked to 9mm

[Thompsoncustom]

Just wondering if this round has ever been created? Kind of like a bigger version of the 357 sig.

 

[MikeJackmin]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38/.45_Clerke

 

[gotboostvr]

Don't forget about the 400 Corbon.
Turns any 45acp into a 10mm more or less.

I wonder what could be done in the way of taking these wildcats one step further and using 45 Super, or 460 Rowland brass?
Trimmed and turned .308 Win brass?!

I think at that point you're dealing with big muzzle brakes similar to the 460 Rowland conversions, but with even more muzzle flash.

Being said, if using chopped .308 brass and the accordingly small powder charges as far as booming magnums go, it would be a cheap fire breathing magnum to feed.

9/40 jacketed bullets are fairly cheap compared to much heavier 44/45 bullets.

A heavy load in a necked down 45 acp case won't be as much as a cavernous 44 Magnum case, requiring much less powder in the necked down 45acp

You would need an extended 38 super barrel that could be threaded and fitted with Rowlands brake with an appropriate inside diameter to work effectively. The barrel would then get reamed for the 38/45 chambering. Add recoil springs/buffers/kits as needed.

Voilá

Depending how hot you want to go, you probably won't need the compensator and recoil assemblies.
I might be getting a little off track, but it's an intresting musing I was thinking about the other day actually.

 

[Thompsoncustom]

Lol funny you say that because i was thinking 460 rowland bottlenecked down to 9mm but 460 and 45super use the same parent case so i figured no need to have the case a tad longer.

Just a interesting idea i guess wonder how fast a 9mm could be pushed out of a 5in barrel.

The 38/45 seems like a poor design i dont know what the max psi was but it doesnt appear to push a .355 cal bullet any faster than a 9mm with 9mm major being hotter. I would think today you could have a 9mm/45 case with a PSI of atleast 40k if not more.

 

[eldon519]

There is a necked down 10mm round called the 9x25 Dillon which is very potent.

 

[gotboostvr]

Yeah, but 10mm host guns have a higher "buy-in" and some limited options.

 

[Thompsoncustom]

I think the 451 detonics case would work out nice for this it has about 5 grains more case capacity than the 10mm and the pressure is about 5k higher. Since the 9x25 dillion can push a 124gr bullet 1700fps I wonder if a necked down 451 could get it over 2k.

 

[ATLDave]

Yeah, but 10mm host guns have a higher "buy-in" and some limited options.

1. RIA and EAA make 10mm's that are quite reasonably priced.
2. If you're talking about rechambering something and then hot-rodding it, it's not going to be all that cheap.

 

[FL-NC]

I remember looking at an old magazine (guns and ammo?) from years ago that had an article about a wildcat called a 38/45.

 

[MachIVshooter]

.38 Casull would be the version I was familiar with. Same dimensions as the .38/.45 Clerke, but I believe was developed using cut down .308 brass like the .45 Super, rather than .45 ACP brass.

 

[kBob]

I had a friend that talked about the possibility of doing a .38/45 Clerke with a supported chamber 1911A1 starting with a .38 Super Barrel.

He had already gotten silly with .45 ACP loads that would have blown out in a regular 1911 series unsupported chamber.

As with the auto mag line he was talking about going with a .308 parent case even with a supported chamber barrel.

He was convinced he could, with creative (and to me scary) loading, sneak up on the .357 revolver with a same length barrel

Lost touch with him though. Wasn't from a fear of shrapnel though....... not me.

-kBob

 

[gotboostvr]

ATLDave, very true. I remembered the RIA offering shortly after I posted last.

The witness, I'm on the fence about. I know they've had issues in the past with heavy 10mm loads. They may be good to go now however.

The RIA does use a fully supported barrel which is a reason I rule out a colt delta elite.

 

[ATLDave]

What would you be hoping to accomplish that the 9x25 Dillon doesn't already offer? You want to drive a 115 grain bullet faster than 1800 fps?

 

[Panzerschwein]

I would love to see a .50 AE necked down to .17 caliber.

Out of a Desert Eagle, that should make a great yote or game round.

 

[gotboostvr]

I'm not trying to accomplish anything. I've got 357's, 44', and even a 500 to accommodate all my flame throwin' needs.

I just find it an intresting thought exercise.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

ATLDave, very true. I remembered the RIA offering shortly after I posted last.

The witness, I'm on the fence about. I know they've had issues in the past with heavy 10mm loads. They may be good to go now however.

The RIA does use a fully supported barrel which is a reason I rule out a colt delta elite.

Yes the older small steel frame 10mm had issues with the metal from the supplier. Its been resolved.

The polymer frames never had an issue and have not been out very long.

I have over 2k rounds through my elite match witch is a steel frame.

Prior to 2005 witness used small frames for 9mm,40, and .22. They used large frames for 10mm, 45, and .38 super only. After 2005 large frames added 9mm and 40 large frame pistols. Noe large frames have 9mm,40, 45, 10mm, and .38 super. The small frame calibers did not change.

Also any small frame slide and mag are interchangeable with small frame only. Large frame are also interchangeable with large frame slides and mages of different calibers.

 

[cfullgraf]

The 38/45 seems like a poor design i dont know what the max psi was but it doesnt appear to push a .355 cal bullet any faster than a 9mm with 9mm major being hotter. I would think today you could have a 9mm/45 case with a PSI of atleast 40k if not more.

The 38/45 Clerke was originally designed as a bullseye target round. The shooter could shoot the same gun in 38 and 45 calibers just by changing the barrel and recoil spring.

I do not think Bo Clerke had a high performance round in mind when he developed the 38/45 Clerke.

It can even shoot wadcutters.

I load mine with 130 FMJs. Brass is easy to make with a fairly low failure rate. I find new cases form more reliably than fired cases.

 

[Deanimator]

The 38/45 seems like a poor design i dont know what the max psi was but it doesnt appear to push a .355 cal bullet any faster than a 9mm with 9mm major being hotter.

"Poor design" for WHAT?

Note the name 38/45. It's not for .355s. It's for .357s, specifically 148gr. lead wadcutters or 158gr. LSWCs. The bottlenecked shape makes it easier to feed non RN-FMJs than a straight case.

As I recall, it was intended for bullseye competition. The paper's dead. You don't need to kill it or even move it more than a fraction of a centimeter.

Gunsmiths learned how to make reliably feeding .38 Special M1911s (like my Giles) and the idea became largely moot.

 

[Wil Terry]

AND this remains;
THOSE who do NOT read history are condemned to repeat it.

And so it goes...

 

[blueskyjaunte]

Well, in searching for .38/.45 Clerke I found this gem:

Neither has found a strong following outside of a niche. One major bullet manufacturer labled it the 38 stupid, something about barrel wear.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/gunsmithing/38-45-a-127607/

 

[Jim Watson]

The .38 Casull was beefed up in case and gun to handle the heavy loads that the Clerke would not. It seems to have been an evolutionary dead end.

You can get 160 grain all-copper .451" bullets which I bet you could drive at high velocity from a .45 Super setup.

 

[MachIVshooter]

The witness, I'm on the fence about. I know they've had issues in the past with heavy 10mm loads.

It was the rounded slide models, put out briefly a few years ago.

Yes the older small steel frame 10mm had issues with the metal from the supplier. Its been resolved.

No such thing as a small framed 10mm, and there was no metallurgical issue that I'm aware of. The Witness is, was and always has been cast carbon steel, way back to when it was imported as the TA-90 by FIE/Excam. There was no 10mm model back then, though. All TA-90s are the smaller framed 9mm guns and use CZ-75 magazines. The Jericho/Baby Eagle is also made by Tanfoglio, finished by IWI, then imported by MRI.

Anyway, the complaint was cracking between the mag release and mag well, a superficial crack in a thin area. Tanfoglio "fixed" it by making a relief cut where the cracks developed. It was never actually a problem, though.

 

[barnbwt]

38/45 Safestop Pistol

TCB

 

[barnbwt]

One major bullet manufacturer labled it the 38 stupid, something about barrel wear.

Am I wrong to be somewhat skeptical a mere 45acp/super case can even hold enough powder to burn a pistol barrel, regardless of bore size? Considering what garden-variety 308 is doing at any given shot compared to any pistol size round...I'm skeptical.

Now, if they're referring to accelerated wear at the lugs due to excessive thrust or poor timing (unlocking under pressure) due to slide velocity, or damage to the link/cam or frame impact areas...I'm much less skeptical

TCB

 

[blueskyjaunte]

I just thought ".38 Stupid" was funny.

I don't see how one could generate enough velocity to result in accelerated barrel wear, either.