.45 caliber

[shootingthebreeze]

Quoting "100 Years of the M1911 At the National Firearms Museum, American Rifleman, Page 64, under stopping power:
"While the methodology of the tests has been questioned, the conclusion was that "a bullet that will have the shock effect and stopping power at short ranges necessary for a military pistol or revolver should have a caliber not less than 0.45.""

Though I like other calibers, I do admit that the .45 is the most lethal at close range defense. Anywhere that bullet will impact will cause massive destruction.

 

[Hunterdad]

I agree. I have a 1911 for a night stand gun and that's the reason I picked a .45. But.....there are other variables as well. Opinions are like.......

 

[BossHogg]

45 caliber is far and away my favorite. 45 acp or 45 Colt are top of the fun chart and are a very good round for SD.

 

[Skribs]

.50 GI meets the "at least .45" mark...and beats it by 11%.

 

[Mr.Blue]

Give me a big heavy bullet anyday. The heavy bullets work much better against bone than do smaller, faster rounds. While shot placement counts the most, a .45acp shot in the same exact place as a 9mm will do more damage.

 

[JTQ]

I think 9mm, .40S&W & .45ACP are really pretty close in performance. However, I believe .45ACP gets that performance with less "drama". A nice simple round with solid performance.

By the way, I don't own any 9mm or .40S&W guns.

"While the methodology of the tests has been questioned, the conclusion was that "a bullet that will have the shock effect and stopping power at short ranges necessary for a military pistol or revolver should have a caliber not less than 0.45.""

No doubt a reference to the Thompson LaGarde tests. See page 4 for the beginning of the "live animal" tests. I'm pretty sure the testing protocol for those test are not up to the Scientific Method my daughter learned for her 3rd grade science fair project.
http://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/TLGR/tlgr.html

 

[Tallinar]

"While the methodology of the tests has been questioned, the conclusion was that "a bullet that will have the shock effect and stopping power at short ranges necessary for a military pistol or revolver should have a caliber not less than .40-something""

Fixed.

 

[Japle]

Funny how the Border Patrol, during the years when they got into more gunfights than all other US LEOs combined, did so well with the .357 and 9mm+P+.

 

[Mr.Blue]

The .357 and 9mm are not one in the same. The .357 may be the most effective pistol caliber at taking men down. I don't know what the science of it is, but based on past studies it has the best numbers.

These numbers were in comparison to old technology .45Acp and 9mm rounds. The .45acp was a close second to the .357, both significantly better than the 9mm. Since then, the 9mm has benefitted from better technology, but so has the .45acp. The new 9mm might now be as effective as the old .45acp rounds, but the new .45acp rounds are still superior to the 9mm.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I have .357 mag, 9mmMakarov, .380acp, 9mm Para and .45acp.
would not hesitat4e to grab any one of them. likely though the .45 is the 'big daddy'.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

At the risk of starting a hydrostatic shock argument, with handguns it's the hole that kills. The bigger the hole, the better the job it does. And as the man said, "A 9mm may expand. A .45 will never shrink."

 

[Japle]

Posted by Mr Blue:
The new 9mm might now be as effective as the old .45acp rounds, but the new .45acp rounds are still superior to the 9mm.

The Border Patrol authorized use of the 9mm 115 gr +P+ in 1987. Previous to that, they'd been using the .357 mag 110 gr load for four years.

According to John Jacobs, the guy who was in charge of choosing ammo and monitoring performance, during the years these two loads were in use, there wasn't a single failure that could be blamed on the ammo. There were problems with bad hits, interference by barriers, etc, but the ammo did the job.

I don't see how any .45 ammo, old or new, could have done better than that.

I currently own seven .45 autos and one .45 ACP wheelgun. I carry an XDm 9mm loaded with 20 rounds of 9PBLE 115 gr +P+ ammo. My 14 round XD45 might give me an advantage, but I doubt I'll shoot enough people to be sure.

 

[agent89]

I laugh at these old notions. All handgun rounds are relatively weak stoppers. You can throw 9, 40, 45 all in the same basket. If you want real power bring a shotgun!

 

[Japle]

If you want real power bring a shotgun!

Really? You're going to carry a shotgun around with you?

The purpose of a defensive handgun is to react to unexpected attack.

The purpose of a shotgun ......

OK, I'll admit I don't know. I used to own some shotguns, but I traded them in on handguns and ran out about 1969. I seem to remember something about pheasants and ducks.

 

[Jim Watson]

"While the methodology of the tests has been questioned, the conclusion was that "a bullet that will have the shock effect and stopping power at short ranges necessary for a military pistol or revolver should have a caliber not less than 0.45.""

As JTQ says, that is the conclusion of the Thompson LaGarde Committee in 1904.
In my opinion, the tests were cooked as far as possible and interpreted selectively to justify a decision the Army had already made. To go back to .45 after poor performance by a black powder .38. Strange, there were few complaints about the .36 cap n ball of the Civil War and frontier.

 

[KenW.]

I laugh at these old notions. All handgun rounds are relatively weak stoppers. You can throw 9, 40, 45 all in the same basket. If you want real power bring a shotgun

!

Unfortunately, its not socially acceptable to sling ole Mossy and take a stroll around the mall. Acceptable by the public, or cumbersome, it's just not feasable to carry a long gun with you everywhere. Multiple hits at center of mass with a handgun will do the trick.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If you knew you were going to get into a gunfight, you'd bring a shotgun (or a rifle.) And a couple of dozen friends similarly armed.

But you don't know what the day will bring when you get up. Hence the handgun, "The gun you always have with you."

And you try to change the odds in your favor if you need to use it. Some choose power, some magazine capacity. Some try to split the difference, hence the .40 S&W.

 

[easyg]

The .45ACP is a fine caliber without a doubt.
But there's just no getting around the fact that it's a big fat bullet and generally offers a rather meager magazine capacity.

 

[easyg]

At the risk of starting a hydrostatic shock argument, with handguns it's the hole that kills. The bigger the hole, the better the job it does.

Not necessarily....

From all that I have ever heard, seen, or read, the .22 magnum is more effective than the .25ACP.

 

[gofastman]

You can throw 9, 40, 45 all in the same basket

Yes, if we're talking an apples-to-apples ammo comparison, a .45+P HST round is likely gonna do a lot more damage than 9mm ball.

The .45ACP is a fine caliber without a doubt.
But there's just no getting around the fact that it's a big fat bullet and generally offers a rather meager magazine capacity.

Indeed.
all 3 of the above mentioned calibers are pretty weak, Ill take the one that allows for more rounds.

No question the .45ACP has its place, I'm really not 100% sure what it is though.
someone will be along shortly to let us know though.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Not necessarily....

From all that I have ever heard, seen, or read, the .22 magnum is more effective than the .25ACP.

Take a look at the holes they make. The .22 magnum makes a deeper hole (penetrates farther), and if you use an expanding bullet, it's a wider hole, too.

 

[PT92]

Man oh man--The caliber wars are like Politics and Religion;The debate will forever continue long after we are all gone.

-Cheers

 

[Slamfire]

Most of my pistol shooting is on steel gong targets. Bigger bullets move those gongs more than lighter bullets. The faster you push those bigger bullets, the more movement you get.

It is not a calibrated test, flesh is not 1/2" steel plate, but my vote is for momentum transfer not kinetic energy.

Bigger is better.

 

[crossrhodes]

? Japle

JAPLE, If they were the cats meow why did we go to the 40 cal and legacy Customs dropped there 9mm and went to 40 too. I'm not saying the 9mm is bad.

 

[spiroxlii]

I've owned a 1911, and I want another one. I've never shot better with a handgun than I did with an XD in .45ACP. I love the round. I love the way the recoil feels (more of a "shove" than the "snap" I expect from .380 and 9mm).

That said, I place a very high value on the concealability of my LCP in .380. It's close at hand and can go almost anywhere with me, no matter what I'm wearing. I considered a compact .45 when I was looking for a highly concealable pistol, and I simply could not find one that was as easy to carry as the LCP or P3AT.

.45ACP is a venerable round, and I would never hesitate to have a .45ACP pistol as my truck gun or bedside gun; however, I cordially invite anybody who scoffs at .380ACP to stand downrange and take a round of Hornady Critical Defense, Corbon Pow'R Ball, or Remington Golden Saber defensive ammunition in the useless .380ACP round from my Bersa or my Ruger. Even if it doesn't expand, it'll ruin your day.