45 Colt (LC) heavy loads in Winchester 94AE, Ruger Vaquaro and Taures Circuit Judge

[Grmlin]

How can I find out what heavy loads these three guns will handle? I have a Winchester 94AE, an older heavy frame Vaquaro and and the Circuit Judge that is chambered for 45 colt and 410 in 2.5 and 3 inch. I want to use a heavy load mainly in the Winchester for hunting but will work in the other two also.

Thanks for any insights
Grmlin

 

[1911Tuner]

The "Ruger Only" loads will be okay in the Winchester...in moderation. The old '94 action isn't exceptionally strong, and the heavy .45 Colt loads stand a better change of unwrapping it than standard .30-30 or .32 Special, even though the peak pressures are lower.

Likewise in an original Blackhawk framed Vaquero, or a New Model Blackhawk, but not a New Vaquero.

I wouldn't touch one off in a Judge on a bet.

 

[redneck2]

^ What he said.

Kind of a rule of thumb is that, if the company made the equivalent gun in .44 mag, then you could maybe shoot hotter .45's. Some of the Ruger guns are obviously .44 mag.

With the rifle, I've read that over time it will stretch the action and give loose lock up.

I'd guess the Judge would most likely end up in small pieces.

I used to run .44 mag equivalent loads in my Ruger Bisley. Not as much fun as just running regular .45 Colt.

The Lyman book has loads that are hotter than old BP loads but still don't beat you (and the gun) up like full power stuff.

 

[1911Tuner]

With the rifle, I've read that over time it will stretch the action and give loose lock up.

You can be assured that it will. Shoot enough heavy loads in it, and you'll start to see evidence of just that when you close the action on an empty chamber...let go of the lever and skake it lightly...and see the lever drop. After a point, it'll drop without shaking it. When it does that, it's time to use standard-pressure loads only, and not a whole lot of those.

Pressure...everybody's main concern...isn't the destroyer here. It's recoil impulse/acceleration and momentum, compounded by the faster powders used in the pistol cartridge that pounds the locking surfaces.

A 250-grain bullet driven to 1600 fps by a relatively fast powder carries not only a higher recoil impulse than the standard .30-30 cartridge, but more momentum as well.

Use such ammunition in moderation.

Take a close look at the 94's action...specifically at the rear of the bolt. There isn't a lot of surface area backing the bolt...and that takes a hit every time the trigger is pulled.

As it starts to peen and deform...and you may not see it until it's nearly at a critical point...the headspace has increased to or just before or at a dangerous point. As headspace increases, the case backs up in the chamber and loses head support.

If you really want to push the envelope, get a Marlin. Its action is far stronger than the great old Winchester's.

 

[Mr Woody]

I just did this same thing with my .45 Winchester Mod-94. I don't have a heavy frame revolver so these were just for the Mod-94 with dear and hogs in mind. I first looked over the .44 mag reloading data in an older manual and start with a lighter .44 mag load and moved over to the .45. I loaded 10 rounds each with 1/4 grain increases.

In shooting them I kept track of the group and the condition of the primer after it was shot. Flattened prime - Flattened primer picking up marks from the bolt face - Watch the signs and quit before you have a problem.

These were also tested on a row of water jugs. The hot load did not penitrate as many as my light rifle load but the hot loads were impressive on the first two gallon jugs.
Woody

 

[Grmlin]

Thanks this information is alot better than what I've been able to find. I was pretty sure about the Vaquaro but not the other two.

@1911Tuner, I didn't know that about the lever dropping. I have a couple of old 30-30 levers (Winchester & Marlin) I'll need to check them out. I have a lever action Marlin in .410, may start looking around for a Marlin in 45 Colt also.

Thanks
Grmlin

 

[CraigC]

I have never heard the concerns voiced in this thread regarding the Winchester 94. I have, however, always seen it placed equal in strength, pressure-wise, to the Marlin 94. That both guns can be safely pushed to 40,000psi in the .45Colt.

The modern 1892 is the strongest at 50,000psi.

The large frame Ruger Vaquero can be pushed to 32,00psi safely.

The Taurus should probably be relegated to standard loads.

Pressure...everybody's main concern...isn't the destroyer here. It's recoil impulse/acceleration and momentum, compounded by the faster powders used in the pistol cartridge that pounds the locking surfaces.

You're speaking of backthrust and backthrust is a function of pressure.

 

[1911Tuner]

You're speaking of backthrust and backthrust is a function of pressure.

"Backthrust"...recoil...is a function of acceleration/force/momentum...and I wrecked the headspace on two .45 Colt Trappers before the light came on. I cannabalized one for parts. The other is still serviceable, but I won't shoot it without a reason...and only with a 250-grain LRNFP and 9 grains of Unique. If you don't hold the lever, it'll fall part-way out of battery.

The warning stands. Beyond that...Smoke'em if ya got'em, lads.