45 Super

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EBB67

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Does anyone know of any off the shelf autoloaders that are rated for 45 Super out of the box with Zero mods? If so what makes and models apply? Ive read several posts on various forums claiming the Springfield XD series is , which i find hard to believe for a crummy polymer framed gun of which i actually own and aside from its $379 price tag i paid for it new, I don’t see quality when shooting it as i do with my HK P7 M13
 
+1 on Hk... The fully supported chamber is evident on their 45's... And pretty heavy springs... The one I owned was no exception. I only shot a few as a test but they ran great and were at advertised velocities... with no visible signs on the empties of bulging and such... Definitely gets your attention... Many hours of research on the net and at GS to verify... Also many 45's with ramped barrels and frame modifications have fully supported chambers... you can drop brass in the chamber and verify the fully supported part... Some of the boutique ammo companies will mention compatibility... Take all that with caution though... I know they wanna sell as much as possible but also wanna stay outta court... IMHO.... As a foot note... I saw a good friends 1911 that he loaded and shot 45 super with... He had upped the spring and added a flat bottom firing pin stop... Plus was using trimmed 45 mag brass... He was getting advertised velocities but even with that heavy brass some ejected cases showed a very slight bulge where the chamber was not fully supported... Ran fine but he wouldn't reload the brass... Probably wise.
 
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bnolsen said:
hk usp 45 should be able to run them directly with stock spring, although you may want to up that spring regardless. I think 450 smc is a better loading than 45 super.
Click to expand...

what mods are needed?
 
EBB67 said:
Does anyone know of any off the shelf autoloaders that are rated for 45 Super out of the box with Zero mods? If so what makes and models apply? Ive read several posts on various forums claiming the Springfield XD series is , which i find hard to believe for a crummy polymer framed gun of which i actually own and aside from its $379 price tag i paid for it new, I don’t see quality when shooting it as i do with my HK P7 M13
Click to expand...
I had a XD45 tac.
I ran 230s at 1000fps thru it with nothing but a 20lb spring and noticed no ware in 5-600rnds.
I eventually added a threaded barrel, comp, and replaced the recoil assembly to use a 24# spring and ran 200s and 230s at 1250fps. Probably another 500rnds or so guessing from empty bullet boxes.
Anything over 1250, I found very unpleasant to shoot....

I would expect that large polymer frame to accept quite a few stress cycles before failing.... Still, unless you're only shooting a few boxes of 45 super, id do the necessary mods and still expect shorter service life.
 
The 3rd generation S&W pistols can, but they've been out of production for 20 years.

One of the handloads I run in the 4506, 4566 and 4516 is a 240 gr Sierra JHC at 1,050 FPS (from the 5" 4506). I've gotten away with this using regular .45 ACP brass because those guns have long lock times and fully supported chambers. The lock time also makes them excellent suppressor hosts.

20220627_161856.jpg
 
EBB67 said:
Does anyone know of any off the shelf autoloaders that are rated for 45 Super out of the box with Zero mods? If so what makes and models apply? Ive read several posts on various forums claiming the Springfield XD series is , which i find hard to believe for a crummy polymer framed gun of which i actually own and aside from its $379 price tag i paid for it new, I don’t see quality when shooting it as i do with my HK P7 M13
Click to expand...

I have read several times that the “Crummy” Polymer guns” actually handle the .45 Super rounds better than metal frame guns due to the built in flex of the material.

I’d still beef up the recoil spring and mag springs at a minimum but overall a better platform in this situation.

I’d feel fine shooting some .45 Super through my G21 Gen 4. Same frame and recoil spring as the G20 10MM. Little difference in pressures. Would be proper to update the recoil spring if shooting a lot of them. I’d also expect to have to beef mag springs minimum.




Excerpt below is from Larry Mudgett’s Blog:

http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/comparing-the-10-mm-450-smc-and-45-super-for-predator-defense/


In comparing the hand loading data for the .45 Super and the 10 mm, I found that full power, heavy 10 mm loads produced by the three ammo manufactures mentioned here are very difficult to duplicate. The full power .45 Super ballistics were much easier to achieve with hand loads.

I often hear concerns about the recoil of the .45 Super damaging pistols which are designed for the .45 ACP cartridge. The 10 mm Glock 20 and the .45 ACP Glock 21 are built on the same frame and there is only a small difference in the slides on these pistols. They are equipped with the same recoil spring. The recoil of the 10 mm 230 grain bullet at 1,130 FPS must be similar if not the same as a .45 Super 230 grain bullet at 1,130 FPS. The recoil impulse for both calibers using heavy loads should be nearly identical.

How is it that the stock recoil spring is sufficient for the Glock 20 shooting 10 mm cartridges but is not sufficient for the Glock 21 shooting .45 Super ammunition? The recoil spring in the Glock 20 was likely selected to handle the more common reduced power 10 mm loads and occasional use with heavy loads.

Upgrading the recoil spring in a Glock 20 which is primarily used for shooting heavy 10 mm loads would seem prudent. Upgrading the recoil spring in a Glock 21 which is going to see regular use with .45 Super Ammunition would also seem appropriate. I see no reason why shooting .45 Super ammunition in a Glock 21 with an upgraded recoil spring would be any harder on the pistol than shooting heavy 10 mm loads in a Glock 20 with an upgraded recoil spring. The recoil is the same.

Many Glock 21 and compact Glock 30 .45 ACP pistols have been converted to .40 Super. This caliber produce higher velocity, more energy and more recoil than heavy 10 mm or .45 Super cartridges. This suggests that the heavy 10 mm and .45 Super cartridges are not pushing the full-size Glock 20 and Glock 21 pistols to their limits. Glock also sells their compact Glock 29 10 mm pistol as a standard production item.

Shooting heavy loads in a pistol is going to increase wear. Shooting light loads will likely maximize the life span of any pistol. I am aware of several Glock 17 9mm pistols which have fired over 300,000 rounds of ammunition. Such longevity should not be expected from more powerful, harder recoiling pistols such as the 10 mm or the .45 Super. I have been told by police armors that .40 S&W and .357 Sig service pistols require more maintenance than 9 mm service pistols and require more frequent replacement.
 
On another forum a high volume shooter who spends about half of his year in the Alaskan back country ran a thread on his search for the best "field pistol". He went through the big revolvers, heavy with low capacity, various Glock's, he's a competition Glock shooter and regularly carries Glock's so he wanted them to work, and he finally settled on the .45 Super in the HK USP 45 with the HK45 as a back up.

The Glock problem he had was they wouldn't reliably feed the typical bullet shapes (in stock or aftermarket barrels) that would make .45 Super truly worthwhile. The HK's would. He found the HK's less "shootable" than the Glock's, but in this application placed more emphasis on reliability over shootablility.
 
JTQ said:
On another forum a high volume shooter who spends about half of his year in the Alaskan back country ran a thread on his search for the best "field pistol". He went through the big revolvers, heavy with low capacity, various Glock's, he's a competition Glock shooter and regularly carries Glock's so he wanted them to work, and he finally settled on the .45 Super in the HK USP 45 with the HK45 as a back up.

The Glock problem he had was they wouldn't reliably feed the typical bullet shapes (in stock or aftermarket barrels) that would make .45 Super truly worthwhile. The HK's would. He found the HK's less "shootable" than the Glock's, but in this application placed more emphasis on reliability over shootablility.
Click to expand...

45 Super is the same case size and bullets as 45 ACP, so that doesn't really make sense to me. I wonder if he upgraded the magazine spring to a stronger spring to compensate for the faster slide movement?

I have NOT yet shot .45 Super from my G21, but I've shot Underwood Ammo 255 grain .45 ACP+P and it cycled fine in my stock barrel.

https://underwoodammo.com/45-acp-p-255-grain-hard-cast-flat-nose/

I will probably buy some UA .45 Super with the same bullet and see how that runs first.

https://underwoodammo.com/45-super-255-grain-hard-cast-flat-nose/

May also go ahead and upgrade my mag springs with these:

https://www.brownells.com/magazines...er-magazine-springs-for-glock--prod71392.aspx

If it works okay, I may add this recoil spring to see how it works:

https://www.ndzperformance.com/NDZ-EPR-Guide-Rod-Glock-Gen-4-20-20SF-21-21SF-p/ndz-g20-g4-epr.htm
 
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I dabbled with it a few years back in the following guns:
S&W 4506, S&W 4566, XD Tactical 45 and a XD Service 45. I shot all these guns with no mods about 20 rounds each. No issues. Not terribly snappy. But at the time I was shooting alot of 44M revolvers so...

The loads came from a buddy who set up a 1911.
I remember discussing with him the loads and the only exceptional item was he was using starline brass for regular acp as someone he spoke with from there claimed there was no difference in the wall thickness at the head. To me this was strange. I thought the case for super were thicker around that area.?

Then I bought a spring pack, stiffer mag springs, and std firing spring for the XD tactical. I think I went up 2lbs from stock, swapped three mag springs (they were harder to top off after that) and we stretched the firing pin spring(do not advise this).

The gun ran great. Shot maybe 500 rounds. It was however a little finicky with regular .45 acp after that. I think if you just pulled the recoil spring you could probably leave the other mods but I really wanted to have the gun for regular 45 acp. My buddy was more into this than I was and really liked the idea of a high capacity .45 super so eventually we made a trade where I got a 7.5 44m Redhawk with ruger rings and he got the xd, 6 mags, a decent leather holster and all the xd stuff plus a case of beer. Based on todays prices I think I ripped him off!

Not long after that I picked up another XD tactical for cheap so I ended up pretty good.

My points in all this is the following:

If your shooting just a few after funtion testing particular ammo in your gun you are probably good.

If you want to shoot a bunch the three mods are recoil springs, magazine spring and firing pin spring in that order. Buy a multi spring pack so you can adjust. Do you still want to run std loads if so you need to function test.

I will refrain from dicussing loads or components other than what I already mentioned about brass which I am still fuzzy on.
 
LoonWulf said:
I had a XD45 tac.
I ran 230s at 1000fps thru it with nothing but a 20lb spring and noticed no ware in 5-600rnds.
I eventually added a threaded barrel, comp, and replaced the recoil assembly to use a 24# spring and ran 200s and 230s at 1250fps. Probably another 500rnds or so guessing from empty bullet boxes.
Anything over 1250, I found very unpleasant to shoot....

I would expect that large polymer frame to accept quite a few stress cycles before failing.... Still, unless you're only shooting a few boxes of 45 super, id do the necessary mods and still expect shorter service life.
Click to expand...

Honesty the only time id use it is if i had to. Just want the nastiest self defense round, that can be fired from an automatic. Personally if it wasn’t a matter of concealment id just run a hot 357 mag and be done. So essentially i want to fit 10lbs of crap
In a 5kb bag, and be able to get 1-2 rounds off, and eliminate the threat without it blowing up in my hand. As a retired LEO with almost 15 years before a medical, i saw too many instances of what smaller calibers do or should i say don’t do on the large, or strung out criminal element.
 
Have to admit some confusion over the purpose of the.45 Super nomenclature; since it is in the same sized case, it sounds much more like a .45+P, or even +.45+. Since it doesn't sound like it should run in just anything, would a slightly longer case, and perhaps a .45 Magnum name, make more sense?
Personally, it wouldn't solve any problems for me, but it does sound interesting.
Moon
 
halfmoonclip said:
Have to admit some confusion over the purpose of the.45 Super nomenclature; since it is in the same sized case, it sounds much more like a .45+P, or even +.45+. Since it doesn't sound like it should run in just anything, would a slightly longer case, and perhaps a .45 Magnum name, make more sense?
Personally, it wouldn't solve any problems for me, but it does sound interesting.
Moon
Click to expand...
Its way beyond a +P or +P+, Buffalo Bore sells them and they will sling a 185 grain JHP at 1330fps out of a 5" 1911 generating just a tad under 700 ft-lbs of ME, thus requiring some mods. It seem however nobody makes gun specifically for it, and the claim is that a G21 or HK USP will do it, but at reduced life, plus I would imagine recoil is pretty fierce.
 
Buzznrose said:
I have read several times that the “Crummy” Polymer guns” actually handle the .45 Super rounds better than metal frame guns due to the built in flex of the material.

I’d still beef up the recoil spring and mag springs at a minimum but overall a better platform in this situation.

I’d feel fine shooting some .45 Super through my G21 Gen 4. Same frame and recoil spring as the G20 10MM. Little difference in pressures. Would be proper to update the recoil spring if shooting a lot of them. I’d also expect to have to beef mag springs minimum.




Excerpt below is from Larry Mudgett’s Blog:

http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/comparing-the-10-mm-450-smc-and-45-super-for-predator-defense/


In comparing the hand loading data for the .45 Super and the 10 mm, I found that full power, heavy 10 mm loads produced by the three ammo manufactures mentioned here are very difficult to duplicate. The full power .45 Super ballistics were much easier to achieve with hand loads.

I often hear concerns about the recoil of the .45 Super damaging pistols which are designed for the .45 ACP cartridge. The 10 mm Glock 20 and the .45 ACP Glock 21 are built on the same frame and there is only a small difference in the slides on these pistols. They are equipped with the same recoil spring. The recoil of the 10 mm 230 grain bullet at 1,130 FPS must be similar if not the same as a .45 Super 230 grain bullet at 1,130 FPS. The recoil impulse for both calibers using heavy loads should be nearly identical.

How is it that the stock recoil spring is sufficient for the Glock 20 shooting 10 mm cartridges but is not sufficient for the Glock 21 shooting .45 Super ammunition? The recoil spring in the Glock 20 was likely selected to handle the more common reduced power 10 mm loads and occasional use with heavy loads.

Upgrading the recoil spring in a Glock 20 which is primarily used for shooting heavy 10 mm loads would seem prudent. Upgrading the recoil spring in a Glock 21 which is going to see regular use with .45 Super Ammunition would also seem appropriate. I see no reason why shooting .45 Super ammunition in a Glock 21 with an upgraded recoil spring would be any harder on the pistol than shooting heavy 10 mm loads in a Glock 20 with an upgraded recoil spring. The recoil is the same.

Many Glock 21 and compact Glock 30 .45 ACP pistols have been converted to .40 Super. This caliber produce higher velocity, more energy and more recoil than heavy 10 mm or .45 Super cartridges. This suggests that the heavy 10 mm and .45 Super cartridges are not pushing the full-size Glock 20 and Glock 21 pistols to their limits. Glock also sells their compact Glock 29 10 mm pistol as a standard production item.

Shooting heavy loads in a pistol is going to increase wear. Shooting light loads will likely maximize the life span of any pistol. I am aware of several Glock 17 9mm pistols which have fired over 300,000 rounds of ammunition. Such longevity should not be expected from more powerful, harder recoiling pistols such as the 10 mm or the .45 Super. I have been told by police armors that .40 S&W and .357 Sig service pistols require more maintenance than 9 mm service pistols and require more frequent replacement.
Click to expand...

I used the term crummy for polymer as its true benefit is simply cost. while initial setup is costly, the raw materials are cheap, and in mass production they're nex to nothing. Considering Glocks 68% Profit margin per pistol vs less than 30% on a steel gun, its obvious. I have a few, but personally the feel just isn't there for me. When you put a G17 next to a HK P7 M8 or M13, its like comparing a Timex to a Rolex. But thats just me. I had a few bad experiences with Glocks in my old LE days, so I prefer to stay away. That said however your theory of absorbing engergy due to flexibility would on the surface seem to make sense anway.
 
EBB67 said:
I used the term crummy for polymer as its true benefit is simply cost. while initial setup is costly, the raw materials are cheap, and in mass production they're nex to nothing. Considering Glocks 68% Profit margin per pistol vs less than 30% on a steel gun, its obvious. I have a few, but personally the feel just isn't there for me. When you put a G17 next to a HK P7 M8 or M13, its like comparing a Timex to a Rolex. But thats just me. I had a few bad experiences with Glocks in my old LE days, so I prefer to stay away. That said however your theory of absorbing engergy due to flexibility would on the surface seem to make sense anway.
Click to expand...

This is a 45 Super thread, not a Glock (or other plastic gun) thread, so won’t go into the advantages other than cost.

But the theory remains that the plastic framed guns designed to withstand the pressures of the 10MM should definitely be able to withstand the 45 Super, especially with a recoil spring upgrade. That includes XDm and others.

Reference the guns available for upgrade to 460 Rowland….both metal frame and plastic frame.
 
MtnHiker said:
I dabbled with it a few years back in the following guns:
S&W 4506, S&W 4566, XD Tactical 45 and a XD Service 45. I shot all these guns with no mods about 20 rounds each. No issues. Not terribly snappy. But at the time I was shooting alot of 44M revolvers so...

The loads came from a buddy who set up a 1911.
I remember discussing with him the loads and the only exceptional item was he was using starline brass for regular acp as someone he spoke with from there claimed there was no difference in the wall thickness at the head. To me this was strange. I thought the case for super were thicker around that area.?

Then I bought a spring pack, stiffer mag springs, and std firing spring for the XD tactical. I think I went up 2lbs from stock, swapped three mag springs (they were harder to top off after that) and we stretched the firing pin spring(do not advise this).

The gun ran great. Shot maybe 500 rounds. It was however a little finicky with regular .45 acp after that. I think if you just pulled the recoil spring you could probably leave the other mods but I really wanted to have the gun for regular 45 acp. My buddy was more into this than I was and really liked the idea of a high capacity .45 super so eventually we made a trade where I got a 7.5 44m Redhawk with ruger rings and he got the xd, 6 mags, a decent leather holster and all the xd stuff plus a case of beer. Based on todays prices I think I ripped him off!

Not long after that I picked up another XD tactical for cheap so I ended up pretty good.

My points in all this is the following:

If your shooting just a few after funtion testing particular ammo in your gun you are probably good.

If you want to shoot a bunch the three mods are recoil springs, magazine spring and firing pin spring in that order. Buy a multi spring pack so you can adjust. Do you still want to run std loads if so you need to function test.

I will refrain from dicussing loads or components other than what I already mentioned about brass which I am still fuzzy on.
Click to expand...

it would be for carry so it would get a dozen rounds at the range here and there.

I actually contacted H&K today and they straight up confirmed both the HK45 as well as the USP are 45 super capable right out of the box with zero mods needed. They advised that if used excessively they “may” reduce component life. I take that to mean some practice here and there and thus perfect for Concealed Carry or Home Defence.

I also contacted Springfield about the XD which i own and they offered a bit different answer and only advised that while not dangerous its not recommended and would “extremely” reduce service life of unspecified internal components whatever that means lol.
 
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