45 year old Hodgdon 4198 powder

[Loosenock]

I have two pounds of 45 year old Hodgdon 4198 powder that was made by Nobel of Scotland. It has remained sealed, stored in temperature controlled wood cabinet at 70 degrees in the dry Colorado air for the last 20 years or so. I can not state how it was stored during its first 25 years.







I'm thinking about using this powder to reload 30-30 165gr. cast ammo at about 1500 fps. How can I be certain the powder is still ok? I would think that if it lost potency it would just have lower pressures.

Any knowledge or comments you care to make would be appreciated.

Thanks
loosenock

 

[jmorris]

I wish I could have aged that well over the last 45 years.

Open and smell it.

If it’s not offensive, I would round up a starting load and go from there. I bet it’s fine.

 

[Charlie98]

That will be perfect for your intended use.

Open a can and give it the sniff test... if it has a foul acrid smell, it's bad. I would also dump a bit out on a white sheet of paper... look for rust or clumped powder.

FWIW, I load right at 20grn IMR4198 under a 170grn cast for 1700fps out of my Savage 99. I don't know that I would want to go much slower.

 

[Loosenock]

I wish I could have aged that well over the last 45 years.

Open and smell it.

If it’s not offensive, I would round up a starting load and go from there. I bet it’s fine.

That will be perfect for your intended use.

Open a can and give it the sniff test... if it has a foul acrid smell, it's bad. I would also dump a bit out on a white sheet of paper... look for rust or clumped powder.

FWIW, I load right at 20grn IMR4198 under a 170grn cast for 1700fps out of my Savage 99. I don't know that I would want to go much slower.

I pulled the cap off and peaked inside. The powder was black, slid and moved inside like sand in an hour glass. No offensive smell. Hardly any smell at all. Maybe a slight hint of ether. But then, summer allergies wont let me smell anything anyway.

Charlie, why do you want to stay above 1700? The Oregon Trail 165 Lazer Cast no gas check bullets have a BRN of 16 and I did not want to have to worry about leading in my Win 94 from the 40's. I've read that leading can start around 1500 pfs.

Thanks for your comments. I feel the powder is fine to use.

loosenock

 

[Charlie98]

I shoot steel with mine, so I need a little velocity to get it out there. I don't really know how far down you are able to load H/IMR4198, all the data I've seen for cast, largely Lyman, starts in the 17grn range at about 1600fps.

I have a pile of 173grn LaserCast bullets, I will tell you to make sure you get the right sized bullet for your bore. Leading isn't necessarily caused by too high of velocity, and/or a soft bullet... but from an improperly sized bullet for your particular bore. My Savage 99 .30-30 demands a .310" bullet, vs the standard .309" bullet you normally find. Oddly enough, my Savage 99 in .308 does not... but it gets a .310" bullet, anyway, because that's what I get for the .30-30.

What will you be shooting those in?

 

[Loosenock]

I shoot steel with mine, so I need a little velocity to get it out there. I don't really know how far down you are able to load H/IMR4198, all the data I've seen for cast, largely Lyman, starts in the 17grn range at about 1600fps.

I have a pile of 173grn LaserCast bullets, I will tell you to make sure you get the right sized bullet for your bore. Leading isn't necessarily caused by too high of velocity, and/or a soft bullet... but from an improperly sized bullet for your particular bore. My Savage 99 .30-30 demands a .310" bullet, vs the standard .309" bullet you normally find. Oddly enough, my Savage 99 in .308 does not... but it gets a .310" bullet, anyway, because that's what I get for the .30-30.

What will you be shooting those in?

Winchester 94 mfg 1949. Load data found on several sites show 15.0 4198 and 165 gr cast at 1420 fps and pressure at 15000. I don't know what my bore diameter is. My laser cast bullets are .310 expander plug is .309. RCBS cowboy dies. Assuming bore is .308.

loosenock

 

[AJC1]

Sniff, white paper test, and a few test rounds... don't go all in before you test... I'd load 10.

 

[Bcwitt]

Ahh! The wonderful aroma of a '76 4198 vintage! One of life's finer moments.

 

[FROGO207]

Those cans will look great on the shelf/wall of your reloading room when empty. I bet it'll be just fine after hearing what you found out.

 

[Charlie98]

Winchester 94 mfg 1949. Load data found on several sites show 15.0 4198 and 165 gr cast at 1420 fps and pressure at 15000. I don't know what my bore diameter is. My laser cast bullets are .310 expander plug is .309. RCBS cowboy dies. Assuming bore is .308.

loosenock

I think you have a recipe for success...

 

[Slamfire]

The posters here have provided you good information. All of which is detecting the gross indications of gunpowder deterioration. Gunpowder does not get better with age, when the stabilizer in it is depleted, deterioration accelerates. Not only will old gunpowder set itself on fire, the burn rate gets messed up, and it will, and has blown up firearms.

With 45 year old gunpowder, use it up. Don't sit on it, shoot it up. Your powder is well past any expected shelf life date, so shoot it up. Do however load up a small sample first, and shoot the stuff. If you have any "funny" retorts, sticking extraction at "normal" loads, don't shoot anymore. Before I knew of deteriorated gunpowder, I loaded up a couple of kegs of military pulldown IMR 4895. It shot well. But I had the occasional sticking extraction, and once in a while a "funny" retort. More pingy than boomy. In time, that stuff cracked the case necks on 700 loaded LC 308 cases. Do not load a whole bunch of cases and let it sit. When the powder goes bad, it will corrode and ruin the cases.

I have written extensively on the problems of old gunpowder, these are a few:

cause of case head separation

Shooting very old ammo.

Reloads Shelf Life

If you ever see this, just STOP

I believe you expressed the false idea that gunpowder fails benignly, because of the continuing industry misinformation on this topic. You probably read this misinformation by an in print gunwriter, whose articles have three levels of management review. This misinformation was deliberately written to calm and assure the shooting public that very damn old ammunition and gunpowder is perfectly safe, and lasts forever! Nothing you read by influencers, be they old time shills, or internet influencers, will educate you on what not to buy! As Noam Chomsky says "the purpose of advertising is to create ill informed consumers who make irrational choices"

You gunpowder is old, it is at the end of any reasonable shelf life, sniff it, inspect it, and load a few rounds and see if it is OK. And if it is, shoot it up. It is not getting any younger.

 

[Charlie98]

Gunpowder does not get better with age, when the stabilizer in it is depleted, deterioration accelerates. Not only will old gunpowder set itself on fire, the burn rate gets messed up, and it will, and has blown up firearms.

I was going to mention that... but I wasn't sure my phraseology was correct. You said it better than I would have. Further, deteriorating powder is a crap shoot... it does not deteriorate linearly or predictably... so age in and of itself means nothing.

I think your powder is OK, for sure... the barometer of that is I would shoot it... but Slam is correct, load it and shoot it, don't load it and let it set.

...you have 933 rounds worth of powder to load up! ...at least, at your current projected load.

 

[Loosenock]

...you have 933 rounds worth of powder to load up! ...at least, at your current projected load.

933 ROUNDS!!! GREAT SCOTT!!! That probably wont happen.

Thanks
loosenock

 

[Bearded Phil]

I don't really know how far down you are able to load H/IMR4198

With SNS's 158gr coated I loaded new I4198 all the way down to 13.0gr. for about 1340 FPS. That bullet in my rifle couldn't group at all if it goes much faster than that.

 

[LoadingPirate]

Load that stuff up

 

[Charlie98]

That bullet in my rifle couldn't group at all if it goes much faster than that.

If it was becoming unstable at higher velocity, it was likely too small for the bore. I had that very same problem with the Savage 99 in .30-30 I mentioned previously. With .309" cast it would shoot off the paper at 50yds, switching to a .310" cast sucked that up to a respectable 4" at 100yds... and I could likely do better with better sights. Reasonable velocity should not be a detriment.