I have shot the Buffalo Bore 44mag+P ammo in my 44 and the recoil did not bother me one bit. Not bad at all. I am a big guy and that may help but i was expecting a lot more recoil. I could shoot those all day in my .44 and it would not bother me.
.454 Casull or .44mag, Any real difference??
- Thread starter kgpcr
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HarleyFixer
Member
I have never lived in Alaska, but having had a bear encounter in Idaho I can tell you that the more gun the better. My grandfather and I emptied a 7mm Mauser, 30-30 Winchester, .and .38 Special into a Female Black bear before finally dropping her with a .22 Magnum. Luckily one of the .22's went through her eye and killed her because NONE of the other rounds penetrated far enough for a killing shot. Bears are VERY tough game.......go with the 454 and the shotgun or 450 Marlin.
I carry my shotgun full of Brennekkes personally (3500fp and hardcast) but If it was my choice there is no way I would intentionally pass up a .454 for a .44 for griz defense.
You might get 2 shots tops if a bear wants you. More likely one. Alaska is basically a rainforest and you won't have a lot of warning. The first shot, shouldn't matter what size it is, should be on target (in theory) so make it BIG. I shot one of my coworkers raging bull .454 and the recoil isn't too bad really. Of course it had about 8" of barrel on it.
I got the mossberg 'cause it was a helluva lot cheaper than a revolver.
Oh and I hear now that they make .460 rowland coversions for my XD. 13rds of .44ish stuff?
You might get 2 shots tops if a bear wants you. More likely one. Alaska is basically a rainforest and you won't have a lot of warning. The first shot, shouldn't matter what size it is, should be on target (in theory) so make it BIG. I shot one of my coworkers raging bull .454 and the recoil isn't too bad really. Of course it had about 8" of barrel on it.
I got the mossberg 'cause it was a helluva lot cheaper than a revolver.
Oh and I hear now that they make .460 rowland coversions for my XD. 13rds of .44ish stuff?
GregGry
Member
With two rounds of identical diameter, just varying weights, the penetration of the heavier bullet should be more then the lighter bullet. However when you compare a bullet that is much thinner in diameter to a larger diameter bullet, both with the same muzzle energy, the thinner bullet could penetrate deeper depending on the material. Of course if you made a bullet the weight of the .22-250's and it had the diameter of a .44/454, it would be a poorer performer then the .44 when it comes to penetration.
I would be happy with a .44mag with hot loaded ammo. As far as the .454casull, you sure can't fault it. If you can control the recoil why not go with it.
ZeBool
Member
Well, there is the argument that you can load a .44 hot enough to get .454-like perfromance, but once you load a .454 up hot, the .44 won't touch it. However, I believe that .44 mag is more than sufficient for any animal in North America, up to and including coastal grizzlies.
williamthedog
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i own and shoot both.
if i only had time for one shot(which is quite likely if a bear was coming at me)
give me the .454
lots more recoil ,lots more penetration AND bigger bullet!
with a bear coming at you at 30 mph.
there are no follow up shots.
ok everybody can attack me now for stating this.
if i only had time for one shot(which is quite likely if a bear was coming at me)
give me the .454
lots more recoil ,lots more penetration AND bigger bullet!
with a bear coming at you at 30 mph.
there are no follow up shots.
ok everybody can attack me now for stating this.
Rampant_Colt
Member
Get the SRH in .454 because it's much more powerful. Period.kgpcr said:
Have you checked the price of those BB .44 Mag loads?
BlueMalibu
Nobody dispute that the 454 is significantly more powerful than the 44 Mag, obviously.
However, I don't know if you are aware that the "big brands" (Federal, Winchester, Remigton, etc..) 44 Mag ammo is quite underloaded compared to the SAAMI specs for the caliber in order to avoid problems (and potential lawsuits) with the new lightweight short barrel 44 Mag handguns. They are more heavy 44 Special than "real" 44 Mag loads.
Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Grizzly Ammo, Garrett and Corbon all offer full house (means full SAAMI spec for the caliber) 44 Mag loads, for which they clearly warn against the use in lightweight (non steel) short barrel revolvers, and overpressure (some manufacturer call it +P even if such standard doesn't exist for the 44 Mag) loads.
Well all of these brands claim about 1200+ ft/lb for their full house 300 gr+ hardcast .44 loads out of a 6.5 inch barrel.
The overpressure loads can reach 1600+ ft/lb. but these +P heavy loads are only for Rugers, TC Contenders/Encores, Taurus Raging Bull and some Dan Wesson model.
www.dakotaammo.net
http://www.buffalobore.com/
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php
http://grizzlycartridge.com
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp
I personally did talk with the technicians at Garrett and Buffalo Bore and they told me that I can get easily 1400 ft/lb with their standard full house loads with heavy bullets out of the 8 3/8 barrel of my S&W 29 (I cannot use the overpesssure loads in a Mod. 29-2)
As I said, it is not a .454 but these numbers are quite different from the figures you mentioned...again, maybe you didn't know that the regular commercial .44 ammo is significantly and purposely mild.
Garrett claims that their standard pressure hardcast .44 Mag will penetrate a grizzly up to the hips on a frontal shot even when the skull is engaged.
That said...
I never been in Alaska, I never hunted and I saw bears only at the zoo...
However I met quite few old and experienced people (that are into guns and hunting) that live or have lived in Alaska...oil people, fishermen, etc...
Folks that "been there and done that"
Well they told me the following...you are welcome to comment but these are their words and not mine:
1) 44 Mag revolvers with proper loads have been used extensively and effectively in Alaska against grizzlies before the new uber calibers came around and, suddenly, become "almost absolutely needed" in hairy situations....a 44 Mag is not a pop gun even against a bear.
2) For long guns, all you need to defend yourself is a 30-06 class rifle, again with proper bullets/loads or a 12 gauge shotgun stuffed with Brennekes....they told me that charging grizzlies have been taken with a 30-30 lever, very effectively, all the time,especially from the natives...one of the guy, an experienced fisherman and hunter, told me, word for word "It is beyond me to understand why some people feel safe against a grizzly with a .454 but they consider a 30-30 marginal on deer...."
3) In a hairy situation, adrenaline rush more often than not and even a sharpshooter can become a very lousy shot......if you do not place the bullet where it should go, it doesn't matter if you have a .460 Weatherby or a 30-30...you have good chances to become bear food.....one of this guys dropped in an emergency a VERY big grizzly with his Marlin .35 Remington and he's got pics to prove it...on the other end some people died after unloading their .458 Win Mag or other similar cannons on a big brown...again...bullet placement...you hit the enraged critter in the guts or in any non vital spot, it doesn't matter what rifle you have,...you are done...
4) Bears are FAST!!!
5) You should use a gun you are proficient and confident with....if the recoil is excessive or you flinch, you accuracy will be bad and the extra power is not going to do you any good.
6) The "needed" caliber for bear protection and hunting in Alaska, strangely, seems to increase as you get closer to the big cities...maybe they suffer more of "magnumitis" in the metropolitan areas...
Finally....
One of my co-worker is a Russian guy coming from a family of avid hunters, he was born and raised in the Kamchatka peninsula.
He told me (and it is not the first time that I heard it) that even for the big polar bears, in Siberia they often use sporterized Mosin Nagants and they do not feel undergunned a little bit.....they take everything with their 7.62 X 54R (the most popular full power rifle round in Russia)..and no, not many of them die because of insufficient stopping power...
Chuck Hawks in his article "Handguns for protection in the field" writes that the 44 Magnum (full specs loads) is appropriate even against the largest predators
This is what he says about the 357 Magnum:
At very close range a full power .357 Magnum loaded with 158 grain (SD .177) to 180 grain (SD .202) bullets will probably suffice, since the target is the animal's central nervous system. Even one of the great bears can be stopped at close range if the shooter can deliver a .357 bullet to the brain. The biggest advantage of the .357 is that most shooters can shoot it more accurately than the bigger magnums. The brain or spinal cord of even a large bear (the biggest of the big predators) is still a very small mark, requiring precise shot placement.
And this is what he says about the 44 Magnum:
The best choice, for the relatively few shooters who can actually shoot it with the required level of precision, is probably a full power .44 Magnum shooting a 240 grain (SD .185) to 300 grain (SD .232) bullet. The big .44 has proven that it can make an impression on even the largest predators. The Remington 240 grain JSP Express factory load drives its bullet at a MV of 1180 fps and ME of 721 ft. lbs. Even fiercer (at both ends) is the Federal 300 grain CastCore load, with a MV of 1250 fps and ME of 1040 ft. lbs.
Link to the full article:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/protection_field.htm
In the early 60's Robert E. Petersen took a big Polar Bear (1500 pounds) with his 6" .44 Magnum S&W revolver using regular soft point 240 gr Norma loads
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/A+Polar+Bear+First?packedargs=pagenum=3
Nobody dispute that the 454 is significantly more powerful than the 44 Mag, obviously.
However, I don't know if you are aware that the "big brands" (Federal, Winchester, Remigton, etc..) 44 Mag ammo is quite underloaded compared to the SAAMI specs for the caliber in order to avoid problems (and potential lawsuits) with the new lightweight short barrel 44 Mag handguns. They are more heavy 44 Special than "real" 44 Mag loads.
Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Grizzly Ammo, Garrett and Corbon all offer full house (means full SAAMI spec for the caliber) 44 Mag loads, for which they clearly warn against the use in lightweight (non steel) short barrel revolvers, and overpressure (some manufacturer call it +P even if such standard doesn't exist for the 44 Mag) loads.
Well all of these brands claim about 1200+ ft/lb for their full house 300 gr+ hardcast .44 loads out of a 6.5 inch barrel.
The overpressure loads can reach 1600+ ft/lb. but these +P heavy loads are only for Rugers, TC Contenders/Encores, Taurus Raging Bull and some Dan Wesson model.
www.dakotaammo.net
http://www.buffalobore.com/
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php
http://grizzlycartridge.com
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp
I personally did talk with the technicians at Garrett and Buffalo Bore and they told me that I can get easily 1400 ft/lb with their standard full house loads with heavy bullets out of the 8 3/8 barrel of my S&W 29 (I cannot use the overpesssure loads in a Mod. 29-2)
As I said, it is not a .454 but these numbers are quite different from the figures you mentioned...again, maybe you didn't know that the regular commercial .44 ammo is significantly and purposely mild.
Garrett claims that their standard pressure hardcast .44 Mag will penetrate a grizzly up to the hips on a frontal shot even when the skull is engaged.
That said...
I never been in Alaska, I never hunted and I saw bears only at the zoo...
However I met quite few old and experienced people (that are into guns and hunting) that live or have lived in Alaska...oil people, fishermen, etc...
Folks that "been there and done that"
Well they told me the following...you are welcome to comment but these are their words and not mine:
1) 44 Mag revolvers with proper loads have been used extensively and effectively in Alaska against grizzlies before the new uber calibers came around and, suddenly, become "almost absolutely needed" in hairy situations....a 44 Mag is not a pop gun even against a bear.
2) For long guns, all you need to defend yourself is a 30-06 class rifle, again with proper bullets/loads or a 12 gauge shotgun stuffed with Brennekes....they told me that charging grizzlies have been taken with a 30-30 lever, very effectively, all the time,especially from the natives...one of the guy, an experienced fisherman and hunter, told me, word for word "It is beyond me to understand why some people feel safe against a grizzly with a .454 but they consider a 30-30 marginal on deer...."
3) In a hairy situation, adrenaline rush more often than not and even a sharpshooter can become a very lousy shot......if you do not place the bullet where it should go, it doesn't matter if you have a .460 Weatherby or a 30-30...you have good chances to become bear food.....one of this guys dropped in an emergency a VERY big grizzly with his Marlin .35 Remington and he's got pics to prove it...on the other end some people died after unloading their .458 Win Mag or other similar cannons on a big brown...again...bullet placement...you hit the enraged critter in the guts or in any non vital spot, it doesn't matter what rifle you have,...you are done...
4) Bears are FAST!!!
5) You should use a gun you are proficient and confident with....if the recoil is excessive or you flinch, you accuracy will be bad and the extra power is not going to do you any good.
6) The "needed" caliber for bear protection and hunting in Alaska, strangely, seems to increase as you get closer to the big cities...maybe they suffer more of "magnumitis" in the metropolitan areas...
Finally....
One of my co-worker is a Russian guy coming from a family of avid hunters, he was born and raised in the Kamchatka peninsula.
He told me (and it is not the first time that I heard it) that even for the big polar bears, in Siberia they often use sporterized Mosin Nagants and they do not feel undergunned a little bit.....they take everything with their 7.62 X 54R (the most popular full power rifle round in Russia)..and no, not many of them die because of insufficient stopping power...
Chuck Hawks in his article "Handguns for protection in the field" writes that the 44 Magnum (full specs loads) is appropriate even against the largest predators
This is what he says about the 357 Magnum:
At very close range a full power .357 Magnum loaded with 158 grain (SD .177) to 180 grain (SD .202) bullets will probably suffice, since the target is the animal's central nervous system. Even one of the great bears can be stopped at close range if the shooter can deliver a .357 bullet to the brain. The biggest advantage of the .357 is that most shooters can shoot it more accurately than the bigger magnums. The brain or spinal cord of even a large bear (the biggest of the big predators) is still a very small mark, requiring precise shot placement.
And this is what he says about the 44 Magnum:
The best choice, for the relatively few shooters who can actually shoot it with the required level of precision, is probably a full power .44 Magnum shooting a 240 grain (SD .185) to 300 grain (SD .232) bullet. The big .44 has proven that it can make an impression on even the largest predators. The Remington 240 grain JSP Express factory load drives its bullet at a MV of 1180 fps and ME of 721 ft. lbs. Even fiercer (at both ends) is the Federal 300 grain CastCore load, with a MV of 1250 fps and ME of 1040 ft. lbs.
Link to the full article:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/protection_field.htm
In the early 60's Robert E. Petersen took a big Polar Bear (1500 pounds) with his 6" .44 Magnum S&W revolver using regular soft point 240 gr Norma loads
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/A+Polar+Bear+First?packedargs=pagenum=3
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williamthedog
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