45acp won't chamber

[Stinger]

I took a few rounds to the range to test for accuracy today, and I had a few problems.

Rainer 230gr Plated
8gr AA#5
1.261 OAL


My 45acp rounds wouldn't chamber. The slide failed to go into battery. Luckily I had some other shooting to do, so the day wasn't a total loss.

What could the problem be? I loaded some on Thursday, and they shot fine, but the ones I loaded on Friday ALL failed to chamber. The loads and preps were all the same, dies weren't taken out, etc. Nothing (that I noticed) changed.

Anyways, I brought the rounds home and began to measure. Case mouth was .475. So I ran them through the Lee FCD (Which I have only used a few times) and it resized the mouth to 4.72. All of the resized rounds chambered freely.

I know that the FCD has its opponents who say that it is merely covering up a problem. And I certainly don't want a bandaid approach. So what caused the problem?

BTW, I have loaded 3,000+ 45acp in the last year, and have not faced this problem before.

Thanks,

Stinger

 

[lee n. field]

Remove the barrel, drop a round in the chamber and see if it goes in all the way, compared to storebought.

I'd look at bullet seating. I had that problem with some LSWC .45 bullets. Turned out I needed to seat them just a bit lower.

 

[1911user]

Do you have a seperate taper crimp station and use it? You should.

I'll bet the FCD is intended to be the "taper crimp" and you said you'd only used it a few times........ The case mouth has to be belled to seat the bullet without damaging it and that belling has to be closed up AFTER the bullet is seated. Look at your process and work out what did or didn't happen.

 

[Stinger]

I dropped the resized cases into the barrel, and they fell right in. However, they do not move as freely as Factory rounds. They will not fall out freely, either. I have been tinkering in the garage for a couple of hours trying to find out what I did wrong, to no avail.

No matter what I do, I can't get the cartridges to fit as loosely as Factory rounds.

Am I flaring too much on expansion?

How much should I expand?

Even if I am, shouldn't the seater and taper fix this?

I'll do some more searching and try to find answers, but please, keep them coming!

Thanks,

Stinger

 

[1911user]

One step at a time:

You should be flaring (belling) the case mouth just enough to seat the bullets without damaging or scraping them. Opening the case mouth any more than required just reduces the brass life by work hardening it which will be seen by neck splits in the future. The expander should be opening the case area (where the bullet will be seated) to just under the bullet diameter. This tension is what really holds the bullet. The (later) crimp only removes the case bell (flare).

Add powder.

Place then seat bullet with no crimping action (make sure the seater die is adjusted to not crimp at this step).

After the bullet is completely seated, then taper crimp the round to remove previous case belling (this is a seperate step although you may just be readjusting the seating die down a thread or 2 to now crimp). they sell seperate dies that only taper crimp and these are mainly used in progressive presses. The Lee FCD is a crimping die (in addition to resizing any case bulges). Don't overdo the mouth crimp, just close up the funnel you made earlier.

The round is loaded and should drop freely into the barrel/chamber. If it doesn't, look carefully for bulges or not enough mouth crimp.

 

[Car Knocker]

Is it possible that your sizing die backed out slightly and you're not sizing as far down on the case as you were previously?

 

[Delmar]

Along with the caution of overflaring, I would add this: Take one of those factory rounds and put it in your shell holder, take the seating die with the bullet seater and lock ring backed out 4-5 turns. Screw the seating die into your press but do not lock the ring. Raise the ram to the top. Then, screw the seating die down so it makes good contact with your factory cartridge. Then, screw the bullet seater down until it just touches the top of the bullet. Now, lock the ring in place.

Then, try processing your reloads through the die. You may have to twist the bullet seater a bit one way or another until you find the correct overall length. It's also a good idea to make up an inert dummy round which works in your pistol for each bullet weight/type you load for. Mark the dummy or tag it in such fashion so you will have it for later use. Makes setting up to load that much quicker.

I suspect your seater die is not screwed into the press quite far enough, and the extended reach of the bullet seater, while seating to the correct overall length as its set up right now, is causing an issue.

Also, depending on the flaring die, if you flare too much on thin cases such as Remington, you can actually bow the case out from the dimensions obtained in the resizing die. Let us know how it goes.

 

[1911user]

Delmar, are you suggesting he seat and crimp in the same operation?

 

[Mike Kerr]

I am pretty sure a solution to your problem has been presented already by other posts.

As an example Car Knocker wrote " Is it possible that your sizing die backed out slightly and you're not sizing as far down on the case as you were previously?" I have found that this problem happens from time to time. If you are not sizing far enough down the case there will be a resulting small bulge near the base of the cartridge The cases will chamber easily going in but sometimes stick (sound familiar ?) when you try to drop them.

Delmar pointed out a second problerm I have encountered from time to time. If your seater is set up wrong you can get the OAL right by twisting and turning the stem but you may end up with some case bulges.

BTW the FCD is a great tool to take care of rounds that are not "quite perfect" as well as a crimping tool to remove belling or case flair. Now if the FCD is touching every round and you feel it "working the case" on every round then you do need to re check your other die settings because something is not set up correctly. I find the FCD helps me produce very consistent rounds if you feel just a pinch the last inch or half inch of ram movement - with only an occasional round really getting worked over by the die.

One more thing when you are dealing with a problem like you outlined it really highlights the wisdom of having a dummy round or two that you have case mouth, case base and mid cartridge dimensions on as well as OAL's. Bet the problem is not at the case mouth but nearer the base.

Regards,

 

[Delmar]

"Delmar, are you suggesting he seat and crimp in the same operation?"

Yes, I am. This is something you can get away with on some plated and jacketed bullets-although I don't recomend it with pure lead at all.

In the end, something is out of whack on this setup, and needs to be addressed. Using the FCD is merely ironing out previous mistakes. I have sized and crimped in a single operation many times and did not have issues-the trick is a minimum flare prior to seating the bullet on a charged case. Have done it with both Lee and RCBS seating dies.

Oh, and one more thing. Clean your dies if you have not done this. It really helps. And I mean take them completely apart-all 3 of them, and clean them really good inside and out-whenever I use carbureter cleaner or something really strong, I follow it up with a silicone rag to prevent rust. 3000 rounds is bound to build up some gunk in them.

 

[stans]

Case mouth was .475. So I ran them through the Lee FCD (Which I have only used a few times) and it resized the mouth to 4.72.

0.475" case mouth is too large, I taper crimp to 0.471 to 0.472". I expect the improper amount of crimp was the problem with chambering. I also seat and crimp in seperate steps. I know many say it doesn't matter, but in my mind it is easier to adjust a crimp die without worrying about having to readjust the seating stem.

 

[Stinger]

Well, I'm still not certain what the problem was...

I went back over the whole process once again, and was able to narrow it down to a couple of things.

Rarely (like never) do I crimp (other than the minimum that the seating die does). I usually set up my seating die per the instructions and let 'er rip. Maybe I should crimp, and do it in a different station, just to be sure.

More than likely, I had my seating die adjusted incorrectly (too far up???). It wasn't ironing out the bell in the case mouth. I thought it might have been oversized bullets, but it turns out they are all within spec.

Finally, I decided to load a few rounds to see if my problems were corrected. They all turned out fine. I just wish I knew exactly what I had done. I'm sure one (or several) of you nailed the problem, but I can't be sure exactly.

Lessons learned:

Get a case guage and check every so often.

Seat and Crimp in separate steps.

Try not to be such a bonehead.

Thanks for everyone's replies,

Stinger

 

[Mike Kerr]

Case gauges are good. Semi auto cartridges present a host of different chambering problems compared to revolver cartridges and you are not a bonehead unless you have had the same problem several different times and still have not sought help. :banghead:

IMO you will be a much happier camper if you seat and crimp at seperate stations. In reloading things go wrong for no apparent reason and you can solve the puzzle faster if these two operations are handled seperately.

Regards,

 

[BluesBear]

I make dummy rounds for each bullet style that I use.

First I drill out the primer pocket completely.

I seat the bullet to the desired over all length for that particular bullet and it's ogive.

I then crimp the bullet exactly how I want it.

I drop 2 drops of cyanoacrylate (Super-Glue) through the flash hole and let it dry while I mix up some two part epoxy.

I then pour the two part epoxy through the enlarged primer pocket until the case is full.

This becomes my seat/crimp gauge.

Now I have been advocating seating and crimping it two steps for almost 30 years but I also realise that most people still do it in one step and very good ammo can be produced that way also.

So the following is described for a single seat/crimp operation but is applicable to separate steps also.

When I need to readjust dies I just run the "gauge" to the top of the ramstroke.

I back the seating stem out and screw the crimp die down until it is just snug against the gauge. I then set the lock ring.
Then I adjust the seating stem down until it is snug against the bullet and then lock it in place.

Viola, you are all set.

When using a single die, it's much easier to set the crimp first and then the seat depth. A homemade gauge makes it fast, easy and repeatable.

 

[Norm Lee]

Won't chamber

"Case mouth was .475"

There's your problem. Should be about .470, maybe as small as .469.

Norm

 

[Rockstar]

I always found it a lot easier to set the seating depth, then the crimp, per the instructions that come with the die(s).

 

[BluesBear]

Yes but if you do it per the die instructions you set the seating depth, back out the seating stem then set the crimp. Then you have to readjust the seating stem a second time using the bullet you just seated as a gauge.

My homeade gauge just eliminates the first step since you already have an accurate and reuseable indicator of where the seating stem needs to be.
As I said I have a separate one made up for each different bullet I load.
Since I always use the same press, my crimp setting doesn't change. I only have to install and adjust the proper seating stem for whatever bullet I am using.

 

[The Bushmaster]

I have been reading this string with some humor. My appologies for snickering here. Sinserely...I have my .45ACP (Lee) expander die set so that it just opens (bells) the case mouth just enough to except the bullet and it is set so that the crimp is nulled. I have had absolutely no problem with this arangement. Another words the bell inside diameter is the same as the bullet's outside dementions. No crimp needed. Like I said in another string. This Colt (series 80) with Wilson parts and these rounds are giving me 1 1/2 to 2 inch five round groups at 25 yards, bench resting. If you try this it should solve your problem if everything else is correct.

 

[LHB1]

I agree with Norm. Don't think you are taper crimping enough to take all the bell out of the case mouth. My cast bullet reloads are taper crimped to .469-.470 at the mouth using a combination seater/crimp die. No problems feeding in my Kimber.

Good shooting and be safe.
LB

 

[Stinger]

I'm still tinkering...

The problem is definitely with my expander die. I was expanding too much, and the flare wasn't being taken out enough to chamber the rounds...my fault.

So unscrew the expander a little, and I crush cases on seating. I screw it back a little, and rounds tight in chamber...

What gives?????

Stinger

p.s. Bushmaster, glad we could amuse you

 

[1911user]

Go back to the basics:

Set the expander to flare just enough to seat bullets without shaving lead or scratching the jacket badly. period. end of adjustment for expander. set the lock ring and throw away the wrench.

Set the seating die so it seats the bullet without any crimping at this step. don't try to seat and taper crimp at the same time especially when you can't figure out the chambering problem. If you have to, (don't know your press setup) load up a bunch of rounds that are seated but not crimped (flare should still be there).

Readjust the seating die so it no longer touches the bullet and slowly tighten the taper crimp at least until it will chamber smoothly into your (removed) pistol barrel. Use a set of calipers to adjust the crimp so the case outside diameter is .47 inches at the case mouth. Now crimp the seated rounds.

If this doesn't work, you've got something out of tolerence either in the pistol chamber size, dies, or bullets.

 

[BluesBear]

So unscrew the expander a little, and I crush cases on seating

Just for the heck of it, go back to your original belling setting, bell a case and then the case, with no bullet, up into the crimp die and tell us what happens?

Does it apply any crimp at all? There should be just enough crimp to prevent a bullet from going into the case.

You HAVE to bell the case mouth at least a tiny bit or you WILL crush cases trying to seat a bullet.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Interesting...reread this string...Got my curiosity going here. Broke out my calipers and some .45ACP's in 230 gr. and 185 gr. and took some measurements. I came up with .472 consistantly on all rounds. I have a Wilson Match barrel in stainless in my Colt Series 80 and I am not having any problems chambering or firing problems. If he is having a chambering problem at .475 he should insure his bullets are of the right dimentions and as mentioned before that he isn't leaving an excessive bell after seating the bullet. Wow....003 makes that much difference? Gotta try this. I am going to load some at .475 and run them through my .45ACP. Not doubtin' anybody's word here, but I am curious.
Oh...And Stringer. I am easily amused at the most simplest of things, people or subjects. One of my hidden hobbies is people watching and how they act or re-act to various stimuli. Another hidden hobby is satisfying my insatible curiosity.

 

[Delmar]

Stinger, I know this has been a major frustration for you, and since I have the Lee 4 die set, resizer/expander-powder drop/seater/crimp die here, I loaded a dummy round to see if there is maybe some illumination I can bring to you. Understand that I am loading this on an RCBS Rockchucker IV.

Step 1-Install the shell holder, raise the ram to the top of its stroke and screw in the full length resizer until it touches the shell holder. Screw the lock ring down finger tight. I resized a W-W case, once fired and took a measurement. Case length is now .891". Case mouth is .467". Case wall thickness is .012".

Step two-raise the ram and screw the expander down until it touches the shell holder, then lower the ram and screw the die out (CCW) one full turn, and tighten the lock ring finger tight.
I put the resized case in and ran it up into the die at this setting. It flared the case mouth just a little bit, but not enough to where the bullet base will completely enter the case. I turned the die very little-like maybe 1/32nd of a turn and ran the case up again until I got a .472" measurement on the case mouth.

As I do not have any Raniers handy at this time, I used a Midway generic plated 185 grain flat nosed bullet which measures .450" at the base. This was enough for the bullet to just sit square on the case mouth without tipping to one side or another. Case below the belling is still at .467" O.D. Just to see what would happen, I turned the expander die in slightly more and ran the case into it, and came up with a .475" reading. I then ran the empty case back into the seating die and it came out with a .472" reading.

Step Three-Raise the ram, and screw the bullet seating die down until it touches the ram, then lower the ram and unscrew the die 3 full turns. Finger tighten the lock ring, then back out the seating screw until you see the first thread on it. I ran the empty case without the bullet all the way into the die. The case mouth did not change in diameter-still at .472". I then ran the case up with the bullet and turned the seating screw in short increments until I got an overall length of 1.260", which for this application works well for my Gold Cup, Government model, Combat Commander and Officers Model. The area behind the bullet is still at .467".

Step 4-although I did not need to, I set up the Taper Crimp die by raising the ram, screwing the die in until it touched the shell holder, finger tightening the lock ring, and backing out the the adjusting screw 3 turns. Ran the cartridge into the die fully, then turned the adjusting screw until it touched the top of the bullet. I felt a very slight resistance when I ran the cartridge into this die, and I can see where the very edge of the casemouth was barely kissed by this die.

Lee states that for a light crimp, to turn the adjusting screw 1/2 turn for a light crimp and a full turn for a heavy crimp. I did this, and on measurement, a half turn crimped the case mouth .001", to a measurement of .471". Another half turn took the case mouth to .470". All other dimensions remained the same.

So, it being 0115 hrs and nothing better to do, I decided to test with the same style bullet with seating and crimping in the same operation. I found absolutely no dimensional difference between the two rounds. Both have the same measurements, except one. I chambered both rounds thru my Combat Commander, and found that with a light taper crimp, the cartridge length remained the same. However, when a heavy taper crimp was applied, I experienced some bullet setback after 3 attempts to chamber. BTW, the cartridges loaded from the magazine very smoothly-no hesitation or bobbling whatsoever. I used a shooting star mag for the test.

I've never been a big fan of heavy taper crimps in a 1911 style pistol unless the chamber dimensions demand it. If you consider that the case mouth sets the headspace while in battery, I'd like to have as much of that skinny piece of brass contacting the end of the chamber as possible. I did notice that on the heavy taper crimp that the case mouth is visibly digging into the bullet, and I don't see that as accuracy enhancing.

 

[BluesBear]

Delmar you just brought up something that I discovered a long time ago, a heavy taper crimp will, in essence, resize a lead bullet.

And since the bullet's bearing surface is now tapered instead of being a true cylinder it can more easily slip deeper into the case.

A properly resized case will hold and prevent the bullet from slipping deeper into the case.
A properly applied taper crimp will prevent the bullet from slipping further out of the case.