Problems with loading .45 ACP

[RealGun]

The "prevention" is something else, as you posted, but it does not "solve" the problem, it "masks" the problem.

What would that problem be? What ultimate wisdom completely rules out a round failing to chamber? Isn't this just another FCD pissing contest? If I shouldn't need an FCD in your opinion, tell me what I should fix, so I don't indeed need an FCD to correct stray issues on some rounds, not all.

There is an irony here in that conditioning 40 SW or 45 ACP brass before reloading can include use of an FCD shell as the key component in a Bulge Buster.

It isn't helpful to just gloat about how one hasn't needed a post sizing die in 40 years or reloading. So far, with the best adjustments I can manage I am getting 5% gauging failures needing to be run through an FCD. If I had the turret station available, I could include an FCD and virtually eliminate gauging.

 

[LiveLife]

Walkalong:
Well, if ones standards are that low, I guess it works. Personally, I do care about the quality of my reloads.

RealGun:
Those who use an FCD regularly don't really need to care about being perfect without an FCD. That is not a goal for its own sake unless one is loading on a three hole turret

I help setup presses/dies for those new to reloading on a regular basis (It's my way of paying forward and sharing knowledge/information) and get asked the same question about FCD, "When do you use it?"

What I tell them is this. I was taught by my reloading mentor to ensure my reloaded rounds are within specs to feed/chamber in ANY pistol. He intentionally made me not use the FCD to achieve this objective. He told me that I could use the FCD afterwards IF I wanted to.

This is THR and many new to reloading come here for information. When someone new to reloading buys a press and dies (let's say non-Lee brand so no FCD), how should we advise them to load their reloads? Of course, to specs or to drop freely into the tightest barrel they have. If they did not load their rounds to specs, their rounds would simply not drop freely into the chamber and they would post, "My rounds don't chamber." We would then recommend that they recheck their die settings to "correct" the dimensions of the loaded rounds. We would not tell them to go buy a FCD and run those out of spec rounds through them.

I believe the FCD has a definite use to "push through size" cases that have been over-expanded at the case base that normal resizing won't take care of.

 

[RealGun]

When someone new to reloading buys a press and dies (let's say non-Lee brand so no FCD), how should we advise them to load their reloads?

Notice here the example of buying a Dillon 650 yet including a supplemental Redding die and a Lee FCD. This is originating from a group of some pretty hard core reloaders that shoot in competition with no time for misfeeds.

 

[918v]

What would that problem be? What ultimate wisdom completely rules out a round failing to chamber? Isn't this just another FCD pissing contest? If I shouldn't need an FCD in your opinion, tell me what I should fix, so I don't indeed need an FCD to correct stray issues on some rounds, not all.

The problem is sloppy technique. People sizing their brass incorrectly, seating the bullets crooked, crimping too much or not enough, etc.

If you size the case all the way down to the base, bell minimally, start the bullet straight in the case, seat and crimp properly, there is no need to "fix" anything.

"Fixing" a round with the FCD is like fixing a watch with a hammer. The FCD does not fix anything. It is a patch, kinda like a car cover you throw on a POS that is devaluing your property.

 

[Red Cent]

918v, what reloading press do you use?

 

[Red Cent]

John Wayne, uhhh......mmmm.... what was your question?

 

[918v]

918v, what reloading press do you use?

I have a CH 4 station press, several Lee Hand Presses, and a Meacham.

 

[Walkalong]

Isn't this just another FCD pissing contest?

It certainly wasn't meant to be, but since you seem bent on trying to blow things out of proportion to make it that way, I am done. Besides, this thread is way off track from the OP's question. AC

 

[RealGun]

What I meant was that an FCD cannot be mentioned without someone jumping in to mock anyone who uses one. That would be okay if realistic ways of avoiding use of an FCD were offered at the same time.

 

[918v]

Seating bullets straight in the case is unrealistic?

Sizing the case all the way down is unrealistic?

Paying attention is unrealistic?

If people are not willing to learn to do things correctly, they should not be assembling ammunition.

 

[RealGun]

Actually, I did appreciate your response but now that you mention it, no, it is not realistic to get bullet alignment perfect every time.

No, it is not realistic to size the case full length without hitting the shell holder. Some calibers are not straight wall cases, allowing a pass through die operation. The main component for that is the shell of an FCD or special die of similar size.

Some dies that go down farther than most others have to sacrifice some of the chamfering of the mouth that is needed for slight variations in alignment on progressive presses. What one can accomplish on a single stage might be more exacting but would be unacceptably low productivity in many cases.

I am not sure where the paying attention thing comes from. Problems occur all the time even when paying complete attention.

 

[918v]

No, it is not realistic to size the case full length without hitting the shell holder.

It is perfectly OK to hit the shell holder. I have been doing it for 17 years. It is not OK to cam over it. That may crack the carbide ring.

 

[918v]

no, it is not realistic to get bullet alignment perfect every time.

You don't have to get it perfect, but dropping bullets into the case mouth at a careless angle is pure negligence. That's how you get bulges.

 

[918v]

Some dies that go down farther than most others have to sacrifice some of the chamfering of the mouth that is needed for slight variations in alignment on progressive presses. What one can accomplish on a single stage might be more exacting but would be unacceptably low productivity in many cases.

So your contention is that ammunition produced on progressive equipment has to be inferior to ammunition produced on single stage equipment?

 

[LiveLife]

RealGun:
What I meant was that an FCD cannot be mentioned without someone jumping in to mock anyone who uses one.

RealGun, the OP (John Wayne) posted that his reloaded rounds wouldn't chamber but when they went through the FCD, they did.

John Wayne:
Forgot to add that the Lee FCD is designed to post-size out of spec rounds. Judging from the resistance encountered, it resized each of the 10 rounds I ran through it. Before using the FCD, none of the 10 would readily chamber and all 10 chamber just fine afterwards.

The reason why many asked the OP (including me) to eliminate the FCD from his reloading process (for now) was because his reloaded rounds were "out of spec" or dimensions too big to fit the Lone Wolf barrel chamber. Once his reloaded rounds fit the LW barrel, THEN, if OP wants to put the extra "factory crimp" finish on the case neck, he is free to do so.

We are all just trying to help the OP out so he can enjoy shooting his lead reloads out of his LW barrel in his Glock 30. I have nothing against the use of FCD, once your reloads are within specs or freely drop in to your tightest chamber.

Peace.

 

[RealGun]

Once his reloaded rounds fit the LW barrel, THEN, if OP wants to put the extra "factory crimp" finish on the case neck, he is free to do so.

That would miss the point of the FCD over other taper crimp dies. It is the post sizing that the FCD contributes. That might not be advisable on the .452 lead bullets, but John Wayne, the OP, mentioned first working with JHP. He had two batches of bullets. I went back and read all his posts, and others might want to do the same.

What I thought was an okay idea but might be confounding is that he switched to doing seating and crimping as separate operations. That is okay if running two different setups with the seating die, the first with just seating.

One thing I think should be reviewed here is that the statement was made earlier that commercial boxed ammo chambered okay. I believe I would want to measure those carefully before concluding that the crimp yield needed to be less than .472, squeezing bullets in the process.

 

[LiveLife]

OP:
I would also like to eliminate using the FCD all together, since it just adds [an] extra step and there is no reason I shouldn't be able to load ammo with just the regular resizing/decapping, expanding, and bullet seating dies.

We are all just trying to help the OP fulfill his objective from post #1.

Sure like to hear back from the OP as to his progress.

 

[John Wayne]

Ok, here's another update. I set out to load 20 more rounds with the same GA 230 gr. LRN bullets, sized .452, and HS-6 powder with mixed once-fired cases, all through the LWD barrel.

I tried crimping bullets to .469", as recommended. Turning the bullet seater/crimp die a little over 1/4 but not quite 1/2 turn got me down to around .472". I kept turning the crimp die down until I hit .469", but at that point the round had an obvious bright and shiny roll crimp on it, and still would not chamber. I did not want to fire a roll-crimped round in an auto pistol, so I tossed that one and tried something else.

Up until this point, I had been crimping rounds using the bullet seater and crimp die. I started off trying to do this operation in one step, and after experiencing problems, decided to try seating and crimping in two seperate steps, to no avail. With this batch, I first seated the bullets using the seating die, and did not apply any crimp. I then used the FCD to crimp the rounds. It took 1 turn of the FCD past the point where it contacted the case mouth in order to get the rounds to chamber--and they still did not readily chamber with a "clink." They go in easily but do not fall out without a gentle shake or tap. Well, they were starting loads and I'm quite frustrated at this point so I decided to try them. Here are the results:

Of 19 rounds fired:
-1 FTRTB
-1 slow RTB (slide went "ka-chunk")

All rounds fired were just as accurate, if not more, than factory rounds. Also put 5 rounds of Winchester PDX1 factory 230 gr. JHP through the barrel, and experienced 1 FTRTB with that ammo. When tested, it readily chambers with a "clink" and falls right back out. Maybe I need to do more extensive testing with factory ammo, and other bullet styles. I only tested the LWD barrel initially with 1 10-round mag of factory FMJ ammo before trying reloads. LWD bbl. chamber measures .475" by my digital calipers. Is this in spec?

Also, the bullets leave a slight line on the case where they're seated. I'm guessing this is what the FCD is smoothing out, and also what is preventing the rounds from chambering. They do not hang up until this part of the loaded cartridge enters the chamber--then it requires a slight push to fully chamber. Could my bullets simply be too large for the tight dimensions of this aftermarket barrel?

*edit: I would just like to say that I do truly appreciate all those who have tried to help me and read this thread through instead of arguing over the FCD. This has been a frustrating experience for me and I welcome your advice.

 

[Walkalong]

A .45 ACP seater should have a taper crimp built in. It should not roll crimp, so I am confused there.

It is normal for some bulge to show at the bottom of where the bullet is seated in the brass. Unless things are crooked, or the bullet is oversized, it should not need to be removed, assuming the chamber is not undersized.

 

[jhallrv4]

I thought I had "reloading" issues with my DW 1911. Then I finally went to a 1911 expert, and he altered the feed lips on my mags, problem solved.

I guess the moral to the story is "don't assume it's the reloads".

I fought that for WAY to long. Take it to a real 45acp smithy.

Jeff

 

[LiveLife]

jhallrv4, the OP is having problem with his reloaded rounds not falling freely into the chamber with the barrel out of the pistol. He's not even to the feeding/chambering from magazine freely yet.

John Wayne, just to rule out another variable, could you try another bullet? I will be happy to send you some sample of 45ACP lead bullets I use (200/230 gr) and some of my dummy rounds so you can chamber test in your LWD barrel (they are sized at 0.470"-0.472").

If they don't fall in freely, it may be the LWD barrel and you can have LWD enlarge the chamber for you under their life-time service warranty. If they fall in freely with a "clink", it may be something else.

PM me if interested.

 

[tac_driver]

some things to check:
1. set sizing die to just kiss the shell holder when handle down position.
2. drop sized case into barrel it should drop in easily and fall right out without any shaking.
3. expand case mouth .17 to .20 over sized case diameter.
4. seat 230gr.RNL bullet starting at 1.260
5. in a seperate station crimp cartridge to .469 using a taper crimp
6. test in barrel
results should be round drops in easily and falls out with no effort.
if the round sticks:
re-seat bullet 1.255 then run through crimp die without re-adjusting die.
keep doing it until you get the desired result.

In my LoneWolf barrel I started at 1.272 (from Lyman 49th)
and settled at 1.140 (I set die at 1.143 to get +-.3)

If you use jacketed bullets set crimp to .470.

Plese post back with results.

Here is a tip for you:
put a small line on the top of the seating and crimping dies with a black magic marker so you can gauge your adjustments.
It's not always perfect but a quarter of a turn is .10 and a eighth of a turn is .5

 

[claybrook]

I just went through this with 230grn LRN bullets. I was seating them to long. They started reliably chambering at 1.20 for me.

 

[John Wayne]

A .45 ACP seater should have a taper crimp built in. It should not roll crimp, so I am confused there.

Maybe I'm not using the correct term...but the case of the round I mentioned definately "rolled" in towards the bullet, as opposed to having sharply defined edges like factory auto pistol cartridge rounds.

I thought I had "reloading" issues with my DW 1911. Then I finally went to a 1911 expert, and he altered the feed lips on my mags, problem solved.

Well, the gun works fine with the stock barrel; the only variables that have been introduced are the LWD aftermarket barrel and my reloaded ammunition...unless my Glock 30 is having some FTRTB problem that just seems to manifest itself with particular bullet styles. I have read about the G30 having FTRTB problems, and I'd like to get a stronger recoil spring. FWIW my gun is Gen 3 and has the "-1" connector. I know Glock modified the connectors in the model 30 at some point to address the FTRTB problem, so that may be a contributing factor.

John Wayne, just to rule out another variable, could you try another bullet? I will be happy to send you some sample of 45ACP lead bullets I use (200/230 gr) and some of my dummy rounds so you can chamber test in your LWD barrel (they are sized at 0.470"-0.472").

If they don't fall in freely, it may be the LWD barrel and you can have LWD enlarge the chamber for you under their life-time service warranty. If they fall in freely with a "clink", it may be something else.

I appreciate the offer, and have been considering buying some different bullets myself. I tried two different styles and weights, but both were from the same manufacturer (Georgia Arms). I think I'll buy some Hornadys (which I know to be of good quality) and try those.

I dont think I'll buy GA lead bullets again. What kind do you use/recommend? I have heard good things about both Penn Bullets and Missouri Bullet Co..

That is good to know about LW's warranty policy; for what I'd be using this barrel for I would rather have it be a little looser in tolerances if it made the gun more reliable. (I shoot reloads to save on money and in competitions like steel challenge, where accuracy is not paramount). If switching bullets does not do it, I may very well contact them.

1. set sizing die to just kiss the shell holder when handle down position.
2. drop sized case into barrel it should drop in easily and fall right out without any shaking.
3. expand case mouth .17 to .20 over sized case diameter.
4. seat 230gr.RNL bullet starting at 1.260
5. in a seperate station crimp cartridge to .469 using a taper crimp
6. test in barrel
results should be round drops in easily and falls out with no effort.
if the round sticks:
re-seat bullet 1.255 then run through crimp die without re-adjusting die.
keep doing it until you get the desired result.

Once again, for those that have not read the first several pages, cases are full length resized and fall freely into and out of my barrel. They are also expanded to the absolute minimum diameter that allows me to start a bullet in the case.

Regarding seating, it seems that most people in this thread recommend seating the bullets toward the maximum OAL...which is fine, but shouldn't the gun function as long as the finished rounds are between min and max OAL? I usually seat them closer to min length to get higher velocities with less powder.

 

[LiveLife]

What kind do you use/recommend?

I currently use Missouri Bullets 200/230 gr SWC/RN (18 BHN) with very happy results.

shouldn't the gun function as long as the finished rounds are between min and max OAL?

How well the particular OAL feed and chamber depend on the bullet nose profile and pistol. Some pistols will feed any bullet and OAL while others are more picky about bullet type and OAL.

Regarding seating, it seems that most people in this thread recommend seating the bullets toward the maximum OAL...which is fine, but I usually seat them closer to min length to get higher velocities with less powder.

I used to do the same with plinking reloads to cut down on powder usage. However, the longer OALs that will feed/chamber reliably from the magazine will engage the rifling faster and provide more consistent accuracy.

I typically load my 230 gr RN to 1.25" OAL, but will seat my 200 gr SWC longer for match shooting accuracy.