".460 S&W leaves every other big-bore handgun cartridge in the dust."

[Guns_and_Labs]

I'm still trying to figure out if the .460 is going to be legal for handgun-only hunting in Montana. As I recall the regs, they mention the cartridge must be "developed for a handgun" or some such, but also mention it must be straight walled. Any of our Montana members want to comment?

 

[Old Fuff]

I admit that I know nothing about Montana hunting regulations, but I can say that the .460 S&W is a straight-wall case (think of an extra long .45 Colt) and it was developed for use in a handgun. Having shot one I would say it would make one heck of a good deer hunting handgun in open country.

 

[unspellable]

Greater velocity with same pressure

The 460, as I understand it, will have a longer case than the 454. This situation is similar to comapring the 445 SuperMag to the 44 Magnum. The nominal pressures for both cartrdiges are identical, but the 445 SuperMag has a 1.610 inch case vs the 44 Mag's 1.290 case. The 445 has more powder room and can use a larger quantity of a slower powder for a flatter pressure curve. This gives the pressure more time to work, so you get more velocity for the same pressure.

 

[Guns_and_Labs]

but I can say that the .460 S&W is a straight-wall case (think of an extra long .45 Colt) and it was developed for use in a handgun

Yes, it seems to fit the criteria. But it (and the .500 S&W) seems to defeat the purpose of the weapons restrictions, since it clearly is not a short range cartridge. I'm more wondering if the regs in Montana will or have changed to exclude the .460 and the .500 from those zones.

 

[Old Fuff]

It depends on how they define "long range."

In the short term I think they will likely ignore the .460 and .500 S&W cartridges because it is not likely very many hunters will have these revolvers. In the longer view thay may address the question if (big "if") a problem develops.

 

[unspellable]

Deer hunting

Here in Iowa we have the straight walled case rule for hunting deer with handguns. This was an attempt to hold the range down and keep it in line with slug guns and muzzle loaders. Various states have various rules for various reasons. It's a big problem trying to come up with a reasonably simple definition that includes what you want and excludes what you don't. There's always an exception to the rule no matter what the rule is.

A strict straight wall rule excludes the 44-40 as too powerfull for deer hunting. I've never heard anybody seriously accuse it of that. Some states say 357, 41, or 44 mag, which excludes all manner of suitable cartridges.

 

[454c]

I know this is an old thread but,I gotta ask,has anyone done a fair comparison between the 454 and 460 ?Using the same bullets, revolver and chrono.

 

[.45man]

454c, I would second the need for a good comparison. I believe if you have super powerful handguns that shoot big bullets fast, lets see how accurate they are at 100+ yards.....forget anything closer....

more power is good......if you can get it on target, a far away target....

My $0.02...

 

[MrBigStuff]

Don't Mess With Redhawk1 and his X-Frames!!!!!

Redhawk1. Man, I see you in every post/thread related to the new .460 and .500 defending them as if they were your kids! Anyone says anything negative about them ( their size, caliber, specs, exc.) and there you are ready to snap like a bear trap! I know you own several...guess everybody has a favorite gun. But man do you get offended when anybody ( myself included) has an opinion on them. You got to relax and take it easy

Not to to be a wise guy, but what was your prefered handgun/handgun caliber before the relatively new X's?

 

[ArmedBear]

I'll get a .460 revolver when they make it in an Airweight.

Geezus, .45man, that's what I call a three-ring circus!

 

[.45man]

ArmedBear,

Yea...I figured if I am going to get one, I might as well be able to shoot .45ACP and .45Colt in it too. Watching my 9 & 10 year old kids shoot this thing with .45ACP target loads is great and they love it too. It shoots .45ACP rounds as accurately at 50 yards as my super-accurized Colt .45ACP does at 25 yards....

The factory also did a nice trigger job on this one......really nice, well constructed, top quality gun.......

I certainly dont want to knock the X-Frame. I am a mechanical engineer and appreciate it for what it is.....But full power .454 Casull redlines my recoil threshold limit. I dont think I am up to anything more than that.

 

[Socrates]

.45 man: Nice Gun!!

Reminds me of, well mine:



Except mines a .475....She's the # 1 bridesmaid of the family. Guess who's the bride, and what caliber?

Don't think the X frames are really packable, but I don't think scoped Freedom Arms revolvers are either.

The .460 and .500 move pistol ammunition into rifle areas, and, perhaps in the slightly lighter Magnum Research offerings, might be more packable?

This week, or next, I'm going up and shoot 500 grain bullets through a Magnum Research BFR, at around 1100 fps. Let you know what I think then.

So far, I've handled the 460 Preformance Center two and a half inch barrel, and, it's a beast. If it had a longer barrel, I would have considered it, but,
I'd want a longer barrel then that, to get the velocity out of it...

s

 

[MCgunner]

I guess I don't have any problem with these new wonder rounds. But the X frame has to be without a doubt the most ridiculus pistol ever built. It's just to darn big and heavy. Which kind of defeats the whole reason we carry a pistol in the first place.

Yep, I look at those things and wonder why anyone would carry on over, say, a Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70 slung over a shoulder. It's lighter and more compact! I used to think the Contender was pushing the definition of "handgun", but my Contender seems positively petite compared to this thing.

 

[Redhawk1]

MrBigStuff, I don't take what others say to offence, I sometimes wonder where they get there information and there lack of hand on knowledge and making attempts to discredit guns they never shot. Me I speak from hands on experience. I love the 460 and 500 Mags. In my opinion the X-Frame was a great step for the hand gunners and handgun hunters. But before the 460 and 500 mag came on the scene, I was shooting the BFR in 45-70, Freedom Arms and Rugers in 454 Casull and TC, Ruger and S&W 44 Mag in handguns as well as the Encore in 30-06, 444 Marlin.(Just to name a few) I also shoot a lot of smaller handguns as well, but the Big bore handguns are my favorite. When I can hit a 4 inch clay target consistently at 150 yards with a 260 gr. Nosler partition from my 460 Mag, I guess in my opinion it is, they are great shooting gun and not some novelty as some have clamed.

I currently have three 460 Mags and two 500 Mags. Sold all my 44 Mags and 454 Casulls and don't regret it one bit. My S&W 460 Mag's are every bit as accurat as my Freedon Arms 454 Casull was.

 

[jerkface11]

They're just so huge it negates the point of carrying a pistol.

 

[Redhawk1]

That is why we all can make choices that fit our own personal preference. I like the handgun challenge and choose a big handgun. What works for you might not work for me.

 

[ARTiger]

I bought the 5" .460 a couple of weeks ago and love it! Prior to that my 6" 629 was the largest gun I owned. The X frame is a bunch heavier, but the felt recoil seems about the same to me as a hot .44 mag load.

Muzzle flash now is another matter. Anything within a few feet would be both shot and incenerated.

 

[Redhawk1]

I think I am going to have to add a 5 inch 460 Mag to my 460 Collection.

 

[MCgunner]

It's a pure hunting handgun for sure, in the same way a TC Encore or Contender is a hunting handgun. It's not for causal wear, packing for defense in the woods, it's not a "mountain gun". It's a pure hunting handgun. I cannot in all faith claim my Contender is much good for anything else, frankly.

One other application may be IHMSA competition. Anyone seen one of these things show up at an IHMSA shoot? I sorta feel sorry for those poor steel rams.

 

[Redhawk1]

Now the 4 inch 500 Mag is not bad to pack as a defense in the woods. Yes it is a little heavier than the Mountain gun, but is very doable.

 

[Socrates]

Jury's still out for me. Since I have small cannons: .500 JRH Maximum, with a 10 1/2 inch barrel, FA .475 Linebaugh with Scope, etc, I'm still not convinced I want to carry either of them, without taking the scope off, or cutting the barrel down, yet, both are around 54-60 ozs. Another pound seems to take it into the cannon class, artillery class, or tech guns... Now, I have to determine what is the mightest you can go with such cannons, or, in other words, how much recoil can you handle, determined on the weight you have...
In other words, when should you start carrying a rifle, or, when does the rifle become the secondary, vs. the primary...

s

 

[Redhawk1]

Socrates, I think it is a choice of what you want to accomplish. A handgun is a handgun no matter if it shoots like a rifle. The challenge of shooting a handgun at 150 to 200 yards or picking up a rifle to make the same shot, which in my opinion is very easy, well at least for me it is. If I can get to within 300 yards of a Caribou with a rifle, I can make that shot with ease. Now when I take my handgun, I have to get closer and use my hunting skill to accomplish that. But with the 460 Mag if I am unable to get into normal pistol range say 50 to 100 yards, I have the option to take a further shot and know the round is up for the task. Don't get me wrong, I love to get as close to game as possible, that is why I love to bow hunt. But there have been times when bow hunting I wish I had a pistol as I watched a nice trophy walk away, because it never came into bow range. My hole point is and it is just my opinion, but a rifle makes the hunt too easy. Yes there is a point where a rifle is always the best choice, but for me it is the challenge. Just because my handgun can shoot accurately to 200 yards does not mean I have to take a shot at that range. Like a car, sure they can go 120 MPH but 95% of the time we never use but 35 to 60% of it's power, but we know we can get more out of it when needed.

 

[Socrates]

Redhawk1

I kind of see your point. I thought animals knew when you where carrying a rifle, and, even when season started Big Bears don't get that way by getting close to people with rifles, during hunting season...

I'm kind of curious how much flatter shooting the .460 is then the .454, with deer bullets? What would you load for the .460? The high velocity load is a 200 grain flat point, from Hornady, IIRC, at 2200 fps. I kind of wonder if I can't get a 230 grain ball going at about 1800 fps out of my 45 Linebaugh, or, maybe 250 grain barnes at 1600, or so? With such bullets, with really poor BC's, I wonder, let's see if I can figure this out. The Spire point hornady uses in the 460 leaves at 2200 fps, out of an 8 3/8, and, at 100 yards, is still doing 1715.
240 grain .454 out of a seven inch, leaves at 1900 and at 100 is doing 1483.
500 S&W, 300 grain spire point, leaves at 2050, out of a 10", and still is going 1695 at 100 yards. This begins to look like the old argument for the .50 BMG round. Bigger, and heavier, retain velocity, and impact, further down range, given similar velocities...

Best bc for a 300 grain 45 from hornady was .2.

I think you might want to do more research into the retained energy of the .460, over 100 yards, and, see how much drop you get, as well...
S

 

[Redhawk1]

Socrates, I am using 45.5 gr. of H110 under them 260 gr. Nosler partition's. That is about 10 more gr. than what a 454 Casull uses with the same bullet.

With the 260 gr. bullet going 1950 fps at the muzzle, it would still be going
1805.4 fps at 100 yards and with a 100 yard zero at 150 yards the bullet only drops 3.1 inches and is going 1733.5 fps and at 200 yards it drops 9.2 inches and 1663.9 fps. More than enough killing power. I have done plenty of research already.

 

[MCgunner]

Or, if you wanna flatten trajectory, use a TC Encore in some short magnum. For deer, my TC Contender is 3" high at 100, dead on at 200. It shoots handloaded .30-30 Winchester with 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips. It does the job and it ain't THAT huge. I also have the choice to whip the .30-30 off it and put the .22 on it and go squirrel hunting or put the .410 on it and hunt squirrels or take off the choke and load a hot .45 colt and hunt hogs in the woods or put the 7mmTCU on it and go shoot IHMSA. I still need a few more barrels, maybe a .223 or .22 hornet would be nice. That's what I like about single shot hunting systems.

But, that's sorta off topic in a way I guess. Suffice to say I ain't gonna stop using my TC for hunting and buy a .460. If I want a hand cannon (beyond what I already have), I'll buy a .45-70 barrel for it. That oughta be good 'nuf on most anything within practical handgun range in north America. Don't know if I wanna use ANY handgun on a Kodiak bear.