5.56mm NATO against deer

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personally, i think a .223 is pretty small for deer. i have seen deer go more than a mile with very good shot placement (broken rib, through top 1/3rd of the heart, through one of the lungs) with a 30/30. it was a real pain to find that deer, and we had to trespass onto a private hunting club to retrieve it. now, being disabled, i NEED to drop them in their tracks when i shoot. so i shoot either a 45/70 or 300 win mag. either of these, with decent shot placement, should do that. there are NEVER any guarantees when hunting, so to me, it makes sense to stack as many of the variables on MY side. both of these guns kick pretty hard, but i can, and do shoot them quite well. they are, however, not a lot of fun at the range using full power loads. that is part of why i hand load. my advice would be to use a larger caliber rifle, at least for the first few years. after you have shot a couple, then you can decide whether or not you have the skill to do head/neck shots with a .223. when you get a shot @ a deer, your adrenaline really kicks in, and a lot of people get pretty excited about that "magic moment" it is quite hard to control, but with some practice and experience, you can, at least to some degree. i still get pretty excited, and i have been hunting since i was 14, i am now 51, you do the math. but i can control my shots when they come along.once you shoot a deer, it will be a fond memory, and you will be hooked. welcome to the hunting world. go get some practice, scout like he77, and have fun. be safe also. make sure of where other hunters are around you! and good luck!
 
Shawnee, fun rant. Thanks.

What's not included in that good generalization is the issue of penetration. I hunt in country with a sparse population of desert mule deer. I might see only one shootable buck in our sixteen-day hunt season. The terrain and vegetation are such that even I with a fair amount of sneaky-snake skill typically can't reasonably stalk into any sort of close range. For me, "close" is anything inside of 200 yards. I may well be stuck with a 400- or 500-yard shot. One shot. Quite possibly, pragmatically, the end of the season unless I'm lucky enough to see another shootable buck if I miss my shot.

I do not believe that my .243 will do as good a job of penetration for an angling body shot on a large mule deer as will the '06.

I haven't done it, and I don't want to, but I learned from a friend's misfortune (yucky job of field-dressing) that a .308 will pentrate the intestines, the paunch and go on into the heart. I don't think the .243 would have gotten to the heart.

FWIW, I know that a .222 varmint bullet will kill a deer DRT, if you center-punch the white spot. :) But ya gotta hit it to do it.

Art
 
I, too, have done quite a bit of hunting out in Art's neck of the woods, though mostly whitetail, mulies up in the New Mexico mountains. I have a .308 now and hunted with mostly a 7mm Win Mag out there for his very reasons and that I might take a shot at a jumped deer and a less than perfect shot with the 7 will get the job done. They don't go no mile when that thing hits 'em, not yet anyway. LOL Everything I've hit well has been DRT and one I hit back in the liver/lungs was DRT because it broke the spine primarily. I guess that one doesn't count. I took a small mulie in New Mexico at 350 yards across a canyon, not the shot I'd place a lot of confidence in with a .22.

7mm rem mag don't have a lot of umph on the .30-06 Art uses if you look at the ballistics. They're both cannons for deer, but they are the proper tool out there in the open country IMHO. .22s aren't. I don't own a .22 centerfire, have no need, have no intent, don't have prairie dogs down here in the marsh, nor woodchucks. Besides, if I shot prairie dogs a lot, I'd get a .22-250, superior to the .223. Lots of folks shoot deer with the .22-250 down here and it works, but I have more confidence in my bigger calibers. Even my .257 Roberts, which has killed many deer, has it all over the .22-250 at any range and if you can't stand the recoil of the Roberts, you're just a wuss. :D
 
Hmmmm..... Let's say that I was WRONGFULLY convicted of some crime in a place that used a firing squad to execute criminals and these good folks were nice enough to give me the choice of being executed by a shot to the chest by a .223 or say a .270. It would be a tough choice wouldn't it! Kinda radical but I think you get the point. I have an obligation to the game I hunt to make as quick of a kill as possible. Just my 2 penies.
 
Arguing this is like spitting into the wind. Some guys listen and never do it, others learn and only do it once, some never learn and will continue on, no matter the consequences.
 
LOL !

OK Art - who chooses to hunt in a location where deer are scarce?
And who chooses to hunt in a manner that produces deer moving away? And who chooses to try that "quartering away" shot?

The point is - the hunter has almost entire control over the range they will be shooting at. Ask a bowhunter if you doubt me.
So if a hunter makes good decisions about that, they have no use for a 30/06. And if a hunter makes bad decisions about that, they do a lot of wounding.
However - many hunters, especially western hunters, pretend they have no control over range and are forced by the landscape to shoot across two area codes.... and that's how the long-distance salutes and wounding of game they do with their '06s or some similar calibers. Ditto the "penetration" gambit. Place the right bullet right and "penetration" is a NON-issue. And anyway - there is no way in the World you can predict what a bullet from any rifle will do when it is inside the game. Thinking it travels in a straight line from stem to stern is as silly as thinking the noise will knock the deer over.


As opined in my original post - I would tell most people to shun using the .22 centerfires for deer and go with a .24 calibe, the .250 Savage, the .257 Robertsr or, as McGunner points out, the not-broken 30/30, which is a very shootable, very effective deer-caliber. Something like a Remington model 7 in 30/30 would even make a sweet Elk gun if the user was as much a hunter as they should be. The old Remington 788 in 30/30 is one of the best deer rifles ever brought out, and how many zillion deer have been sent to the frying pan by Marlin 336cs and Winnie 94s ?

McGunner - I'm with you on the "black rifle" syndrome, and for the same reasons - PLUS - as a long time Hunter Safety instructor I've spent hours and hours imploring students to think about the public image they present of hunters. And the "black rifles" give the Public an image of hunters that is NOT positive or helpful to our sport.

:cool:
 
MC,

I think by using "EVIL BLACK RIFLES" (my FAL?) for hunting, doing it right and being responsible with the guns, would give hunters and shooters alike a better image. One that doesn't convey "They just want their good ol' sportin' guns, they don't need the baby-butchering black ones."
 
MC,

I think by using "EVIL BLACK RIFLES" (my FAL?) for hunting, doing it right and being responsible with the guns, would give hunters and shooters alike a better image. One that doesn't convey "They just want their good ol' sportin' guns, they don't need the baby-butchering black ones."
Click to expand...

I support your right to own one, just why justify it with hunting? Why do people have to justify owning a gun? I don't like the way black guns with pistol grips handle in the field. My sporting guns are faster to the shoulder and more natural for me, that's all. I have an SKS dressed up with a folding stock. It's fun at the range, but I have other guns I prefer for field tools. It just seems like most of these .223 threads for deer are AR guys, perhaps wannabe ninjas, lookin' to use their ninja weapon for an actual purpose other than shooting cans or paper. Most are probably youngsters, frankly, didn't grow up hunting in the 50s/60s. I'm kinda set in what I like, sorry, just a hard headed old man I guess. To me, rifles are hunting tools and there are far better hunting tools than an AR IMNSHO.

As for hunting "out west", the west has many biomes. West Texas is open desert with draws and ridges and such. The frequency of longish shots out there is greater. Now, where I hunted most, deer were definitely NOT in short supply, hole in the road on state Hwy 90 called "pumpville", about 13 miles west of Langtry, a town known for Judge Roy Bean and his courthouse, the "law west of the Pecos". Up in the Guadalupe Mountains of New Mexico, you can be in thick cover or you could be presented a cross canyon shot. It's all spot and stalk out there. Frankly, IMHO, that area is made to order for my little stainless M7 in .308 Winchester or the .260 or 7-08 would be excellent. Any of the short magnums would work in a light, totable, accurate rifle like the M7. You can be in thick, dense juniper one minuted and be glassing a canyon wall half a mile away the next.

This is the west I've hunted. Use what you think best in Oregon or Washington State. Too far away for me to make a trip up there especially with 4 dollar a gallon gas. When I speak of "hunting out west", it's west Texas, a nation all of it's own, not the western US. Oh, I include New Mexico, love that state. :D
 
The West is to varied to just throw into one lump sum and say with what and how it otta be hunted. From the forests of the Cascades and west, to the sage brush area's like some of Nevada, or Southern deserts and Northern prairies etc.
Living here in one area awhile or driving through no way either. I have lived in the southern Deserts to the heart of the Cascades and places in between those two. Hunted in So. Cal to the center of the heart of theFrank Church wilderness, I have a fairly good idea of what is needed, To just throw it all into one lump sum and say one small caliber is good enough for everything everywhere, or the hunter needs to change his ways, is out of touch to say the least, and I will just leave it at that.
 
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MC-

Nice to know there's another "hard-headed old man" in the forum...I, too, enjoy the more "traditional" esthetics of the hunting sport (like 50 yrs ago), which, for me, means bolts, levers, pumps and doubles (shotguns).

The 223 is a sweet little cartridge, and I really enjoy it, up to coyote-size game.
 
Well luckily, Mountie, our deer don't get much bigger than coyotes. :)

The reason I use my "non-sporting" guns (Mosins amung them) is because I'm more familiar with them. Also, the only "sporting" rifle I own is a Marlin 336, given to me by my grandfather before he passed away. I was raised with turnbolts and lever-action guns, most with scopes. My first shots target shooting were at 100 yards and it was with a .308 (when I was 9). Don't think I wasn't raised in the "traditional" ways of hunting.

That being said, I used my dad's SKS to kill my first deer when I was 9.

I will pick up a lot of other guns before I pick up my 30-30, mainly because I am more comfortable with the sights/heft of the other guns. I take my saiga, or my FAL, or my Mosins, or when it's built my AR into the woods because I get the most time with those rifles. Ammo is cheaper and it allows me better practice.

Sure there are more powerful rounds than the .308 or .223. There are also rifles that are more woody and glossy than my FAL or Saiga (and much less cosmoline-drenched than my Mosin), but I have the most experience with my EBRs. I know how they shoot and I know how to kill ethically with each.

To each his own, though. If MC feels like taking out his winchester model 7, go for it. I'll be the last person in the world to judge you for what you bring home bacon with.
 
I own an SKS that I've set up for hunting, don't have that stinkin' pistol grip on it. It handles like a normal rifle. Safety is a little weird, though. I prefer to thumb my safety off on a quick shot, more natural to me being as most of my bird guns have tang safeties except for the 1400 Winchester.

Anyway, .308? That's not the discussion, either. The OP is on the .223. Nobody said the .308 wasn't enough for anything in Texas. That's what my favorite rifle is chambered for. :D

My friend's boy took a spike on my place last year with a .22-250, did a fine job. Yeah, they're small down here, too. But, we also have some BIG hogs and I would not wanna try that .22 on a 350 lb hog unless I had a clear head shot at close range. It's minimal enough on a large buck. He asked me before going to the stand where to shoot a hog, I told him, "With that gun, only take a head shot." Nuff said, all you need to know about pig anatomy until you grow up and get a .30 caliber or 7mm. LOL! Fortunately, his .22-250 is quite accurate enough for head shots at any range he'll see one out there and he's a pretty good shot with that gun.
 
Have I used a 30-06 on deer (& elk) effectively? Yes. Is it my choice now? No (prefer the 25-06 for deer, and it's served me well). Do I believe it to be a good round for the western big game hunter? Yes. Hunting smallish whitetails, I'd have no problem personally using a 24-caliber, but when pursuing larger deer, I'll hedge toward a bit larger diameter round.
 
About all I've tried to do is explain my reasoning for what I do. Heck, back when I still lived on the old family place outside of Austin, a Colt Woodsman would have been plenty-nuff gun. When an old doe lies down underneath your deer stand, what does it take? Duh?

I was halfway ashamed about my last mule deer buck, up in the Davis Mountains. I walked up to maybe thirty yards at most. A sin to use a rifle of any sort, but I didn't have a pistol. So? I wuz supposed to give him a Get Out Of Jail Free card?

Sure, I choose to hunt where my '06 is definitely superior to my .243. I figure that having free access to many tens of thousands of acres is worth it. It's just another one of life's millions of tradeoffs.

What it amounts to, in my opinion, is that, "There ain't no such thing as one size fits all."

:), Art
 
Whoa there eliphalant..

You're welcome to chide me for any words I write but not for words you decide to pretend I wrote. Nowhere have I said poor ol' Art had to change nor have I said the West is an environmental monoculture. Stay on the High Road, Amigo.

Most of us posting on this thread have tried to give the .223 its' due withOUT fostering the idea that it is wise for Joe Anyone to use it on deer.
I happen to have done the same thing re: the 30/06.... tried to avoid fostering the idea all hunting/shooting problems and deficiencies are solved by simply purchasing a 30/06... because they aren't. Buying a 30/06 doesn't make one a transcontinental elkslayer anymore than simply buying a 30/06 makes one as good with it as the guys who have completed sniper school.

I will add something relevent here. I have been lucky enough to have a few in-person discussions of riflery with Dave Petzal (Field & Stream Editor and long time competeitive shooter). He once told me that caliber is part of the paradox of the rifle. That paradox is explained by this paradigm. By the time a rifle hunter is good enough to make good use of any "advantage" in bigger, more powerful calibers - he is usually good enough to get the job done with just about any reasonable caliber. From what I've seen, Petzal was right on.
 
Hi Art...

If someone tells me the 30/06 is the caliber for them "just because", everything is cool. No more explanation sought, no apologies needed.
It's when people start telling others, especially newbies, that they need a 30/06 or that the 30/06 is some sort of one-size-is-always-best magic wand that I get up on the stump.... simply because it IS more gun than MOST people will ever need and more gun than a LOT of people will ever shoot well. It is just plain, everyday Wrong to tell people they need to buy an 18-wheeler to drive to church. An' Tha's a Fac, Jac ! :)

:cool:
 
About all I've tried to do is explain my reasoning for what I do. Heck, back when I still lived on the old family place outside of Austin, a Colt Woodsman would have been plenty-nuff gun. When an old doe lies down underneath your deer stand, what does it take? Duh?
Click to expand...

ROFL, :D. I can relate to that. I was hunting up near Llano once many years ago. They run around in herds like cattle up there, is unreal. Anyway, early morning first day I'm sitting by a bush resting as I'd been still hunting all morning. It was a doe hunt and all I saw was bucks.:banghead: So, I'm watching these canvasbacks land on a tank (that's pond for all you Yankees out there), I mean being the waterfowl nut that I am, and was thinking about going back to camp and getting my shotgun, which I'd brought along. Then, the bush I'm sitting by starts shaking. I turned around and there's a little fork horn on the other side of it nibbling the browse. I put my crosshairs on him and watched the flees crawling on his back for a minute. Eventually, he moved on. :D I could have killed that one with a hatchet and a little luck.

What I like about west Texas is there's bigger deer out there and the hunting is mostly spot and stalk. I get REAL tired if sitting in a box blind or tripod stand watching a feeder. When I can get out where I can spot and stalk, I just enjoy the hell out of it. You're active, you're moving, you're HUNTING, not waiting on the game to show up. It's a lot of fun out there, but that hunting club started to get expensive and I left it. Sure miss the hunting out there, though. It was a long drive out there, 7 hours, and I only got out there once a season for a week. I always saved my vacation for deer season.

Shawnee, I'd rather be over gunned than under gunned. If you're going to own just one rifle, it needs to fit any need you might have. A .30-06 may be a lot of gun, but ya know what, you can handload it down to .30-30 levels if you just have to. It will do ANY job. A .223 just will not. If you have a park model 42 ft travel trailer you need to haul around, you going to buy a Yugo to do it with? :D You can drive a diesel dually to Church, I see people doing it, but you ain't gonna haul no 42 ft trailer with a Yugo. You choose your tool to fit your most demanding need, that is, if you don't own more'n one tool. Besides, a newbie needs a gun that will allow him a little less than perfect shot placement and still do the job. I'd never recommend a .22 as a first deer rifle.
 
if you are new to hunting, get a 12ga shotgun with slug barrel. cant get close enough? find someone to help you improve your stalking skills. a 10z 12ga slug has all the knockdown you need. taken dozens with my mossy.
 
Nowhere have I said poor ol' Art
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Never did any of my posts have one thing to do with Art or any of his posts. Talk about misunderstanding, duh!

However - many hunters, especially western hunters, pretend they have no control over range and are forced by the landscape to shoot across two area codes.... and that's how the long-distance salutes and wounding of game they do with their '06s or some similar calibers.
Click to expand...
I could tell you about spending hours stalking bucks in the sage brush or tall grass, crawling, laying in the dirt, havin to shoot em at about a thousand feet, or not shooting at all. Of wanting to be sure that bullet has plenty of ummph when it finds it's target, etc. etc. but like a lot of things I reckon if I gotta explain you wouldn't understand anyhow, so I won't.
 
Hi McGunner...

LOLOL ! :D

It's no better to be overgunned as it is to be undergunned.
Caliber simply cannot substitute for shooter and bullet performance.
I can see this thread has reached maximum warp. LOLOLOL ! :D


:cool:
 
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