Deer hunting: 5.56mm, .308, etc...

[OldSchooler]

If we recall the history of modern arms development, the .223 round started as a development of the .222 Remington, a varmint round. Eventually the armed forcs of NATO went looking for a round to replace the .7.62 NATO round, which was derived, in the beginning, from the .300 Savage.
The 5.56 eventually was chosen for it's ability to incapaciate and fragment - not necessarily kill - within 100 meters. Plus, the average foot soldier could simply carry more of it, while still being able to wound/supress the enemy: - outright lkilling the enemey was being supplanted with the new idea of immobilizing and tying up the enemies' resources.

Interestingly, there was an early requirement that the new .22 round could penetrate a helmet at 600 meters, but it was admitted that it may not reliably do so, if at all, and so it was dropped.
At short range (inside 100 meters), much development has brought the 5.56 round into the light. It is very effective, especially at fragmentation on hard surfaces, making it safer in urban environments. It is also a great penetrator in the right bullet weights. It also tends to blow up in it's frangible forms, making a mess. Picking just the right bullet is important.
But the .223, a derivative of the .222 Rem, originated first and foremost as a varmint round.
So it is obvious that with just the right shot, the .223 round can deliver a killing shot on deer, people, etc. I mean, there is always the story of David and Goliath to fall back on. Sure, it happens. No one here would doubt that. The world is full of mystery, after all.

Much depends on shot placement and hunting technique. If you can get to within 5 yards and the deer turns broadside to you with a wink, grunting, "shoot here," as it wags it's head at you : - then sure, a sharp stick will do, I suppose.

But, if you dont want to bank on a perfect shot, from a perfect tree stand placement, on a perfect day, at a perfectly willing deer...well, then a margin of error is in your favor. If the hunting gods turn their face from you today and you must shoot longer and in less than perfect ways than you would otherwise prefer - something with a bit more anchoring power could be in order.

From the intial posters comments, it seems he is willing to make the leap to something other than his SHTF banger. If he merely wants an accomplice to agree that it is all OKAY to do what he contemplates, then he seems to have found that, too. Mileage varies for all of us, and Diana is fickle one day, accomodating the next. Personally, I prefer something a tad more powerful, if I am going afield to court Diana's deer. I'll take the .300 Savage, er, .308 myself.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The 5.56 eventually was chosen for it's ability to incapaciate and fragment - not necessarily kill - within 100 meters.

Can you cite the Required Operational Capability (ROC) that says that?

 

[OldSchooler]

Can you cite the Required Operational Capability (ROC) that says that?
Of course not. I wasnt trying to re-iterate the governments findings from the 50's verbatim. My comments were merely based on a bit of common research - which any one can do for themselves. Your concerns over misinformation are well founded, though, and it's good that you think that way.

I DO, on the other hand, have some old writings from the mid 60's when the .223 wasnt even in the general consciousness yet. The .222 Remington, it's derivitive source, was however, and was considered suitable for game up to varmints and not beyond. Cartridges in the class of the .222 Remington and it's ballistic sibling the .223, weren't even mentioned in the larger game categories. Incidentally, this was the opinion of folks who will probaly live in the annals of hunting deeds, far in excess of our puny efforts to argue our various points. I'll go with their council, for now.

The greater CONTEXT of my comments is that the .223 cartridge, and it's ultimate trappings as the 5.56 NATO round, were all based on what is essentially a varmint round - and so it should remain.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I DO, on the other hand, have some old writings from the mid 60's when the .223 wasnt even in the general consciousness yet.

In the mid 60's, the M16A1 was our standard combat rifle. There were anti-war group claiming the bullet was "designed to tumble" and "designed to fragment" -- but that's not true.

 

[OldSchooler]

In the mid 60's, the M16A1 was our standard combat rifle.
Agreed. It had, in fact, been tested all through the early 60's, and found lacking on many counts. Nevertheless, after much development, it was named the US Army's standard infantry rifle in 1967. John Q. Public, on the other hand, was only barely aware of all that and the round in it's civilian form was a relative newcomer. The .218 Bee and .22 Hornet were far more well known than the .223 at the time. Few would have considered those rounds, or the .222/.223 cartridges, as suitable in the main for anything but varmints.

But again we bog down in the quagmire of out-of context snippets and endless debate. Indeed, the .223 can be a lethal round. It also lacks the reserve power that the larger bullets carry downrange.

Shoot what you will, my friends, the burden is yours. Thus is the blessing, and price, of liberty.

"Once a bullet has been triggered, no power on earth can bring it back. Only the hunter behind the gunsights can determnine its mission. Only his eyesight, reflexes and his judgement can control its direction. This great responsibility is his alone. He is the conscience of that bullet!" - - W.K. Merrill

 

[doc tc]

I agree with those who have commented that the .223 will work and sometimes work well but that it really is not a deer catridge.

There is just not enough horsepower for the work, really. I mean scattering a ground squirrel is one thing; he doesn't weigh anything and can't absorb much energy, but a deer? Lots of capacity in a deer.

Not me. I do like the idea of the single shot NEF rifles in the appropriate caliber, whatever larger-than-.223-round that is. In fact I have been considering one for myself. Got me thinking about it again tonite.

But I recommend the 30-30 Marlin for the woods. It is extremely handy and it just feels right. I've had mine now for nearly 40 years and have taken deer nearly every year with it. I have never had to track a blood trail to find the buck. 35 grains of H335 with a 150 grain Hornady sitting on top works just fine, every time.

You can probably find a used lever 30-30 in decent shape for a couple of hundred dollars or less and you don't need a scope on it, either. In my opinion a scope on a lever gun is just plain foolish (unless you are old and cannot see, which you are not) but that is another issue entirely.

So here's the deal. Hunt with the .223 if you must but keep your shots to less than 75 yards and don't shoot at anything that is running.

Oh yeah, another thing about the 30-30 is that it will not kick the crap out of you like a lot of other calibers can, especially if the rifle is light, and it holds five rounds with an empty chamber so if you do happen to wound an animal you have a pretty good chance of a follow-up shot quickly. Hell, I just love the damn thing. I've got quite a few other rifles in various calibers and none of them makes me as happy as that old Marlin; I get happy just picking it up. Might have more to do with the memories that are in her than the rifle itself but those memories wouldn't be in her if she wasn't a damn good gun.

Go get one.

One other thing and I'll go away quietly. I carried an M16 in the jungle in the late '60s and it just wasn't good enough for that kind of hunting. Suppressive fire, sure, light ammo so you can carry lots of it, sure. A hunting round for 140 pound game at any distance? No.

But do what you want, like the man says, it is a free country. Whatever you decide to carry make sure you go on that hunting trip. It is not really about the gun, man, what it really is, is the woods. And who you find yourself to be when you are in them.

Have fun, be safe, stay safe. Bring home some meat.


doc

 

[uk roe hunter]

i love the calibre choice threads!!

Hi Guys,
This thread is great! i love these ones. what we have to remember is that most of the classic calibres are proven game getters in thier correct place.
I have a .30-06 which i use for all deer in the uk roe sized and above. i have a .243 win which i use on muntjac and cwd and foxes. i use 80 gr spitzers in the .243 or 85 grain gamekings. in the 30-06 i use 150 gr spitzers.

In america you guys use callibres that would not be legal in england as they must go over 2400 fps. some one said the use a .44 mag which i believe is a pistol round. That must be great for close stuff but not on 300 yard shots. So you have to use each piece in its place.

.223 is a cracking round but i would restrict its use to fox, cwd and muntjac. I am sure that with accuracy it will kill your deer straight off, but the margin of error is much smaller (i think). I like it when you shoot deer and they fall down dead on the spot. the .30-06 does that well enough.

steve

 

[GooseGestapo]

A lot of advice, but most are internet ninja's.........
(NO EXPERIENCE).

If you are using factory ammo, look no further than the Winchester 64gr Soft points. They do real well on deer. About like a .30/30 with a 150gr Soft Point.

If you reload, the 65gr Sierra BTSP is my favorite, followed by the 60gr Hornady Soft Point, and the Sierra 63gr semi-pointed soft point.

I've also had outstanding success with the Hornady 55gr soft points (from bulk pack, they have the cannulure for crimping). These are not nearly as accurate (1.5-2moa), but expand well and hold together adequately.

Avoid anything lighter than 55grs. 50grs tend to blow up and not penetrate adequately. Most heart/lung shots with 55gr or heavier bullets give complete penetration with quarter to half-dollar sized exit wounds. (broadside hits).

I shot a 125lb 8pt buck facing me at 27yds with my M4orgery about 5yrs ago. Bullet was a Hornady 60gr SP over 26.0gr of Hod. Varget. Bullet hit him just under the white throat patch. Broke the neck, exited neck, re-entered shoulder, cut hole in shoulder blade, exited rear of shoulder, re-entered the left ham, broke femur, and exited the ham.
DRT, need I say ?

Of 500+ deer I've killed, approx. 60% have been with .22cf's.
A few with .22rf.
(No BS; many were killed on crop depredation permits while still employed over 25+years, includes those previously hit by cars and needed put-down).

They are certainly "adequate", with proper bullet weights for velocity, and proper shot placement. (.22 centerfires).

That stated, my preference given a choice, are in no particular order....
.257Roberts, 7mm-08, and .30/30.

Shoot straight with heavier bullets and the M4orgery will do fine.