5-Shot Snub: Enough Gun?

[TxUplander]

I've had one of mine disappear as well. It was just a fun post commenting about the zombie horse that keeps getting beaten here.

Therein lies the key. Way too many folks out there who have have very set opinions on the subject based on nothing other than what they read or watched on the internet. Hands on instruction from a professional, experienced trainer is critical, IMO. It's eye opening, and affords a person the ability to come at these decisions from a position of at least some level of practical, rather than purely theoretical, knowledge.

Since you seem to hold yourself in high regard considering your training base and like to call others out on their perceived lack of training or “purely theoretical knowlege”, please list the courses you have attended and in what capacity. Also, List all tactical/practical matches you have attended and your standing in said matches. Ill do the same and we can separate the wheat from the chaff right damned quick. Id invite Kleenbore to also participate!

 

[bearcreek]

Since you seem to hold yourself in high regard considering your training base and like to call others out on their perceived lack of training or “purely theoretical knowlege”, please list the courses you have attended and in what capacity. Also, List all tactical/practical matches you have attended and your standing in said matches. Ill do the same and we can separate the wheat from the chaff right damned quick. Id invite Kleenbore to also participate!

Not gonna do that. My level of training or lack thereof has nothing to do with the accuracy of my statement. Exactly what part of my post do you disagree with?

 

[TxUplander]

Sigh. Twenty years in law enforcement, sixteen years as a certified firearms and use of deadly force instructor, twelve years on a tactical team. Actually, I was quite fortunate as none of these were my gunfights, but I was peripherally involved in the sense that I have responded to incident scenes, reviewed camera footage from dashcams, bodycams, security cameras, interviewed victims, suspects, witnesses, reviewed incident, arrest and investigation reports as well as conducted a few investigations. So perhaps I should have used a disclaimer, such as "cases that I was familiar with." My bad.

Oh, and I've watched a lot of "Cops," "Live PD" and "On Patrol" on TV

For the record, I've been present at training where someone demonstrated shooting from a coat pocket and from inside a purse. As purely a last-ditch self-defense effort, one might get lucky.

Anyway, I'm outta this one (for a while, at least). Gotta remember stuff like the advice in Proverbs 26:17.

You act like you are the only one with a career in law enforcement! You can call it luck if you choose. I call it not showing my cards up front.

 

[TxUplander]

Not gonna do that. My level of training or lack thereof has nothing to do with the accuracy of my statement. Exactly what part of my post do you disagree with?

Thats EXACTLY the response i would expect from you. Portray yourself as being well trained and well versed on a subject UNTIL its time to put up or shut up.
I was sincerely hoping this forum would be different from all the others. Its not….

 

[TxUplander]

Hopping on a plane to Miami. Cant wait to see what transpires while im away! Miami is a real hole so i should have 4 or 5 gun battles to discuss when i get back.

 

[CDW4ME]

Made this over a year ago, recurring rationalizations I've seen.
This thread includes statistics, location (area), fatalism, and feel protected
Shirt tucking (including unrequired) is usually not stated but fair odds it factors. (Elephant in thread / room)
I need to make a new one with psychic ability adjacent "feel".
This thread has not had "wouldn't want to get shot by it" usually invoked for 22/32 not 38 special, ... valid my venn is.

 

[trackskippy]

I dont think anyone is calling anyone out on their lack of training, but just suggesting that if you get some training, youll likely have a different outlook on some things, because you learn as you go, or at least some do, and you learn what likely to work better, or not, and you continue to move forward and improve.

And the scenario thing is really a stupid thing to argue over, as its only a mere speck in the whole realm of things. But it does seem for some, to be the main issue and focus of everything.

I dont know about anyone else, but the reason I try and learn as much as I can and continue to do so, is so I have a broad knowledge base to draw from, in any scenario I might run into. You work out in practice, what works and what doesn't, or as best you can, and know what not to waste time on, and what to bear down on. And of course, theres always something new to learn.

Nothing is perfect, but some things quickly show themselves to be deficient in a broader and bigger picture. And once you limit yourself to things that dont allow for a broader use, you limit yourself.

And working on "scenarios" in practice, doesnt necessarily mean thats any kind of reality, or what youll encounter, but eve the silly ones, let you learn things you might never of thought of, or shoot in ways youve never shot before. Its not bout the specific scenario, its about what you might glean from it and then have experience with that you may be able to apply elsewhere.

And in doing so, you also learn the things that, while they might could work in one narrow case, arent really worth bothering spending any more time on, and other things will overlap and offer more.

The main thing here is, is to get some or as much experience as you can or can handle and at least be somewhat safe and realistic about your actual skills, with no matter what you choose to use.

The one thing in threads like this that I think stands out glaringly is, people seem to get butt hurt and defensive pretty quickly when someone says something about their choice, and it all goes downhill from there. Fingers in the ears and "LA LA LA" sort of thing. If youre paying attention, you learn something in every thread, might be good, might not, you may or may not like it, but its up to you what you do with it.

 

[Kleanbore]

Hands on instruction from a professional, experienced trainer is critical, IMO. It's eye opening, and affords a person the ability to come at these decisions from a position of at least some level of practical, rather than purely theoretical, knowledge.

Yes indeed.

Of course, the knowledge level of the instructor is critical. An instructor who has had the benefit of interacting with a large number of police officers is much better than a military veteran who has put up a shingle to conduct shooting sessions, Also, an instructor who has acted as an expert witness in numerous use of force trials can help a lot, too.

Good training can be worth its cost several time over.. Good classroom sessions afford the student the benefit of being able to ask questions and get meaningful answers.

 

[bearcreek]

Thats EXACTLY the response i would expect from you. Portray yourself as being well trained and well versed on a subject UNTIL its time to put up or shut up.
I was sincerely hoping this forum would be different from all the others. Its not….

Again, what part of my post do you disagree with?

 

[bearcreek]

Of course, the knowledge level of the instructor is critical. An instructor who has had the benefit of interacting with a large number of police officers is much better than a military veteran who has put up a shingle to conduct shooting sessions, Also, an instructor who has acted as an expert witness in numerous use of force trials can help a lot, too.

Those things are useful of course. I'm not sure they'd really matter though when discussing the merits of a revolver vs. a semi auto or the nuances of shooting from a pocket......

 

[Pat Riot]

I was sincerely hoping this forum would be different from all the others. Its not….

I, for one, am sorry you feel this way. This thread is not typical of most I have seen on The High Road.

 

[Old Dog]

Of course, the knowledge level of the instructor is critical. An instructor who has had the benefit of interacting with a large number of police officers is much better than a military veteran who has put up a shingle to conduct shooting sessions, Also, an instructor who has acted as an expert witness in numerous use of force trials can help a lot, too.

Good training can be worth its cost several time over.. Good classroom sessions afford the student the benefit of being able to ask questions and get meaningful answers.

Good points. Unfortunately, what I'm seeing as far as a lot of the commercial training out there is that we are slowly losing some of older, experienced instructors/trainers. And there seem to be a trend in replacing them with younger, cool guy military vets with no street experience in law enforcement, no training and experience in de-escalation techniques, less lethal force options, law enforcement use of deadly physical force doctrine and policies but who love doing their demos and telling stories (that aren't as funny as Clint Smith's). For every Smith, Ayoob, Givens, McKee, Hackathorn out there, there's now ten young guys with full sleeve ink, long beards, battle belts and tight t-shirts.who frankly, aren't relatable like some of the old guys are, particularly for the citizen who just wants beneficial training in using his/her chosen handgun (even if it's a five shot snubby), learn the state laws on use of deadly force, and improve their own odds as Mas said, "In the gravest extreme."

 

[Kleanbore]

I'm not sure they'd really matter though when discussing the merits of a revolver vs. a semi auto or the nuances of shooting from a pocket......

Massad Ayoob has discussed both in articles and books, and he has demonstrated them in videos.

I'm sure that people who are interested in either of them would benefit from the Q&A.

Tom Givens and Rob Pincus have fielded questions on handgun capacity in their classes.

I attended a class in which a student asked about snub revolvers, the instructor offered some comments, referred him to a class put on by Claude Werner.

 

[Old Dog]

I recently purchased one of Sturm Ruger’s lightweight compact revolvers (LCR .38 S&W Special) with a goal of carrying it in my front pocket in a Bob Mika pocket holster

We didn't really discuss the efficacy of the OP's opening statement.

But the fact that there was so much discussion about shooting from inside a pocket seems to be almost universal acknowledgement about the limitations of pocket carry, specifically the slow drawstroke and size/capacity restriction required for the mode of carry.

 

[crstrode]

We didn't really discuss the efficacy of the OP's opening statement.

I have toted a LCR in various pocket holsters many times with good results. Usually guns ride OWB under a sweatshirt or vest, but when extra discretion is desired, the front pocket of slacks, jeans, or shorts is a good option.

 

[Zendude]

This one's a little different. It has covered capacity, DA trigger pull, pants pocket carry, jacket pocket carry, shooting from a pocket, shooting from a retention position (thanks, Mavracer), compliance vs resistance, and other things.

Looks like a good start for the table of contents of a new book.

 

[Blue Jays]

The biggest eyeopener on this thread is the number of regions with highly-committed muggers who wish to remain engaged for a shootout with lawful CCW holders over a wallet with $60.00 and an iPhone.

In my observations the typical strong-arm mugger wants a quick steal. They do not want to be hurt and definitely do not wish to awaken dead or awaken in a hospital with a GSW and handcuffed to a bed. Met with meaningful resistance the easy criminal response is to simply flee while injury-free and pick a far easier target.

There must be a new emerging breed of remarkable ultra-hardcore muggers truly ready to commit to their craft.

 

[Kleanbore]

I have toted a LCR in various pocket holsters many times with good results.

I understand that the LCR has a good trigger pull, and I have heard that the polymer frame attenuates the severity of the recoil.

Usually guns ride OWB under a sweatshirt or vest

When I carry a Kimber K6, I carry OWB. One reason is that it is heavy.

but when extra discretion is desired, the front pocket of slacks, jeans, or shorts is a good option.

I carried that way for a while.

 

[trackskippy]

The biggest eyeopener on this thread is the number of regions with highly-committed muggers who wish to remain engaged for a shootout with lawful CCW holders over a wallet with $60.00 and an iPhone.

In my observations the typical strong-arm mugger wants a quick steal. They do not want to be hurt and definitely do not wish to awaken dead or awaken in a hospital with a GSW and handcuffed to a bed. Met with meaningful resistance the easy criminal response is to simply flee while injury-free and pick a far easier target.

There must be a new emerging breed of remarkable ultra-hardcore muggers truly ready to commit to their craft.

Again, the problem with "narrowness". Its not about what one mugger "might" do, its about being prepared for whatever you might get. Whatever that may be.

Do those of you who carry a 5 or 6 shot revolver only train/practice for what you think youll get so that choice works? Or do you look at the bigger picture?

 

[trackskippy]

I have toted a LCR in various pocket holsters many times with good results. Usually guns ride OWB under a sweatshirt or vest, but when extra discretion is desired, the front pocket of slacks, jeans, or shorts is a good option.

Smart Carry is a great option, and for a lot of things. I find its a lot quicker and easier to access than from a pocket, and from however, not just standing, and it opens up the options as far as what guns you use. You arent limited to just "little" guns.

 

[Blue Jays]

"…Do those of you who carry a 5 or 6 shot revolver only train/practice for what you think youll get so that choice works?…"

I have stated multiple times my preference is for a substantial hammer-fired semi-automatic with plenty of ammunition.

At the same time, if heading outside with my little dog, I am entirely comfortable with a J-frame.
The time exposure is just so brief. I just don't think anyone is planning an ambush.


By contrast, if hiking in the boonies I am also comfortable with a lightweight J-frame and plenty of cartridges. I get it…ANYTHING could be out there…yet when I don't see a soul the last fifty hikes I feel adequately prepared no matter which handgun I select…whether bigger semi-auto or smaller .357 Mag revolver.

 

[trackskippy]

I was just asking the question. No one seems to want to discuss that when its brought up, just usually run off in another direction and skirt the issue. Not accusing or belittling anyone or anything, just making an observation.

I live in a very rural area these days and Ive seen some pretty crazy stuff go on here too, both people and animal-wise. Again, it doesnt matter where you are, or what you think you "might" get, that "METEOR" can get you anywhere on the map, any time it wants. We're on its timetable and are kind of stuck here on the map, dont ya know.

 

[Kleanbore]

I live in a very rural area these days and Ive seen some pretty crazy stuff go on here too, both people and animal-wise. Again, it doesnt matter where you are, or what you think you "might" get, that "METEOR" can get you anywhere on the map, any time it wants.

That, I'm afraid, is an accurate assessment.

 

[GEM]

Meteor strike - where I live, a nut drove hundreds of miles just to shoot up a supermarket. He had body armor and unfortunately the armed security guard didn't go for a failure to stop procedure, just shot the vest. What more of a black swan event do you want and if the black swan flaps near you, a J isn't optimal. It is rare. So is being hit by lightning - I've been. It takes little effort to wear a decent belt semi and an extra mag. Again, the J is for a Bug or concealment constrictions that necessitate pocket carry. And they are not as easy to shoot. We know that from expertly conducted research. Of course some poster will claim be the J frame Robin Hood/William Tell of his domain. I shoot semis and Js in equivalent matches. The semis are easier and faster.

Those who say - teams of commandos - that's just a BS rhetorical conceit. There are plenty of two to three shooter incidents out there.

 

[.38 Special]

Again, the problem with "narrowness". Its not about what one mugger "might" do, its about being prepared for whatever you might get. Whatever that may be.

Do those of you who carry a 5 or 6 shot revolver only train/practice for what you think youll get so that choice works? Or do you look at the bigger picture?

But again, (and again and again) the "bigger picture" is that we are unlikely to ever need a gun, let alone to need to fire it, let alone to need to empty it, let alone ever needing to reload it. "Realistic" practice on multiple targets with multiple rounds and reloading in between isn't at all realistic, no matter what kind of a gun you are using.

And looking at it from the other direction, don't you ever feel foolish when running 15+ second drills against half a dozen targets, blowing through multiple magazines? I know I do: "Well, I've been standing here for quite some time, shooting this gun at all these targets and just assuming they are going to stand around shooting back". Gunfights just don't happen that way, and frankly, I can't think of any way to make live fire training particularly realistic, at least in the sense of what actually is reported about real-world gunfights.

By far the most realistic training I have ever done is force-on-force with Airsoft, and in all the scenarios I've been through, there were never any that would have been successfully resolved if only more rounds had been available. The basic issue is simply time. If four or more dedicated guys come at you in that sort of training, you simply don't have time to shoot them all before they overwhelm you, regardless of the number of rounds in your gun. Is the reality on the street different? It may be, but I have yet to see any evidence of it.