590 vs. 870 for combat shotgun?

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DrDremel

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Which is a better combat shotgun, Mossberg 590 or Remington 870 and WHY? The why is the most important part of the question. I am considering both and I am not sure which I will but. Price is not an issue, but performance and durability. The military chose the 590 over the 870. Does anybody know why it was chosen over the 870?
 
First, I'd do a search on this forum for info on the 870/590. There's a BUNCH of info from both sides.

Now to unload something off my chest:

The government chose Mossberg for two reasons:
1. PRICE. (always the main thing).
2. Mossberg passed the famous required government shotgun test.

The government shotgun test is what I want to unload on.

The inference, (pushed by Mossberg) is that the only gun that could pass the "grueling" test was Mossberg, and therefore Mossberg makes the best, most durable shotgun.

Here's the truth.
Remington OWNS the pump shotgun market, civilian, police, and most military units that get to CHOOSE the guns they use.

With 90% Plus of the police market, and the vast majority of the commercial market, Remington simply decided not to submit a gun for testing.

WHY?

Two reasons: Realistic outcome of the bid, and risk to market share for no real gain.

Look at it from a manufacturers stand point.
You have nothing much to gain, and a lot to loose.
Remington's market is the commercial and police market. The military never bought that many shotguns anyway.

If you submit a gun for testing in an attempt to sell a limited number of guns, you run the risk of mis-adventure.
Bad luck, bad karma, or a hidden, one-in a million flaw COULD cause even an 870 to fail during testing.

You can write you own Mossberg advertising in that event. "Mossberg, the world's best shotgun, that passed the test Remington FAILED".

"Mossberg, the choice of PROs, proven by the US government to be a better gun than the weaker Remington".

And on, and on.

The second reason, is a realistic appraisal of the government bid.
Simply put, it costs less to make a Mossberg with it's stamped parts and cast aluminum receiver, than it costs Remington to build a steel framed gun with heavier parts.

In truth, most any good quality shotgun could pass the government test.
This means that in the final analysis, Mossberg could under price Remington, and would get the bid, irrespective of how much better the 870 preformed in the test.
All that's required is that the gun PASS the test, not better the other gun.

If two makers pass the test the cheaper priced gun gets the bid.

Remington never had a chance of getting the bid, the amount of guns at rock-bottom pricing would not be a money-making affair for Remington, and the possible damage to their reputation and through it their market share, just wasn't worth the potential trouble.

So, the Mossberg government test hype is just that....hype.

Bottom line: As I've said in a number of posts: The police voted with their dollars in the shotgun market dispute. 90% Plus of law enforcement agencies use the 870, even though the other guns are cheaper.

The reason is, an unequaled reputation of durability, quality, and reliability, that ISN'T hype.
Mossberg and everyone else can only dream about that reputation.

As a "civilian" it really doesn't make much difference which gun you buy, you're unlikely to shoot it enough to wear it out, or have problems in a life time of shooting.

Since you have to pay for your own gun. you likely won't subject it to the kind of abusive treatment street cops give their guns.

The police DO abuse their guns, and so far, the only modern gun that will stand up to that treatment is the 870.

When 90% of pros are using one specific gun, that should tell you something.

You're choice.
 
Keep in mind the military version is not the 590 its the heavier barrelled version (the 590A1?) I believe the military is transitioning from the Mossbergs to benellis now anyway.
 
Simply put, it costs less to make a Mossberg with it's stamped parts and cast aluminum receiver, than it costs Remington to build a steel framed gun with heavier parts.
Click to expand...
Remember that the major steel part of the gun -- the barrel -- is made in MEXICO. Aluminum is cheap to machine and aluminum parts are SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than an equivelant steel part.

To further this, Mossberg had to redesign their model 500. It is a significantly different gun and costs significantly more for the consumer... even higher than a Remington 870 Express will cost.

dfariswheel:

Thanks for the insight. Based on their advertising, I'd assumed that Mossberg had competed against the Remington. Are there any other shotguns that competed and failed? Winchester?
 
dfariswheel
Very interesting.
I am honestly just wondering where you got your information. Not trying to challenge anything you said, but if I quote you I want to make sure I got it right.
 
Either one would serve you well. Both will outlast most shooters.

I chose 870 because I was already familier with the controls from the dove fields. 870 has a reputation for being indestructible. I ain't easy on mine and it hasn't given me any problems.

I have no problems with anyone that shoots a Mossy, I have no problems with the gun. I just like 870's.


Smoke
 
Badger Arms:
As far as I know, no other pump gun maker has submitted a gun for the test, pass or fail.

I'm assuming that Benelli did, but I've heard no details.

444:
The info came from a number of sources, including a Remington Exec.

A lot of it is also common sense, and knowledge of how companies think.

Consider this: You own a company that makes gold-plated widgets.
Your widget is the best widget in the world, and you have 90% of the market, worth 100's of millions of dollars.

You have an opportunity to sell the government 5000 widgets, at a net profit of not much, plus all the typical government procurement hoops you have to jump through.

All you have to do is submit a widget for government testing.

There's a CHANCE that even your world-class widget MIGHT fail due to just bad luck, OR the people in charge of procurement might already know they want your competitors widget, and will "finesse" the testing to insure they win.
(Remember the M-16 vs. M-14 "tests", and the early fraudulent Beretta test process?)

And finally, you know that even if you pass the test, your competitor will get the contract, because he can under price your widget.

A CEO that risked any possible damage to his widget sales by entering the test should be fired for incompetence.

In this case, since you're not going to make much real profit, and might actually do damage to you product reputation, most companies will just pass in this case.

Bottom line:
1. Mossberg had everything to gain, and nothing to loose.
They knew their gun could pass the test, and were willing to make the small gamble of a possible failure.

2. They knew they could under-price Remington and would get the contract.

3. They were probably pretty sure Winchester and what's left of Ithaca wouldn't even try.

4. They knew they had an edge on any foreign entry, due to being an American owned company.

Remington had everything to lose and not much to gain.
In addition, they also knew all this, and just elected to punt.

Mossberg got the relatively small contract, and bragging rights about passing the test.

Remington beats Mossberg's brains out in the commercial and police market, where the money is.
 
I would imagine also that if the contract was small, the company would be willing to sell at some loss just for the bragging rights. I am sure that Mossberg has sold many shotguns based on the fact that it is the ONLY shotgun to pass the militaries test.


I fully understand the logic behind it. As I mentioned, I just wanted to make sure that if I repeated it and someone asked me to back it up, I would have something to say in reply.
 
Kudoes to dfaris, you put it better than I can.

If all I had was a 590, I'd still consider myself well armed. Still, given a choice, make mine one of the 870s here. 40 years of use, maybe 50K rounds, with ONE glitch.
 
The 590 is an excellent gun, it's just that there is no real need for it. It's the "Johnny Come Lately" and doesn't impress me as being any better than the 870 at ANYTHING. The peace-of-mind I get from a steel receiver, steel mag tube, steel barrel, steel barrel lug, etc. is more than I get from a rickity forend, aluminum receiver, plastic safety (yeah, the 590A1 has a steel one) etc.
 
Well I guess I'll toss in my $0.02 also...

I own a 870, and shot the 590's also... the 870 just simply has a smoother operation. The forearm slides without feeling gritty, the fit and finish IMO is significantly better, and those factors just give me more confidence in the gun.

Sure, give me an 590 also, I'll feel secure also... but if I had a choice... the 870 is where its at.

And preferrably, i'll take a 870 Marine Magnum while we're at it :D
 
The 590 is an excellent gun, it's just that there is no real need for it. It's the "Johnny Come Lately" and doesn't impress me as being any better than the 870 at ANYTHING.
Click to expand...


You must be right handed. In my Experience, the 500 is a better fighting shotgun, because the loading port is not blocked by the lifter, the bolt release is in a convenient position (especially for lefties) and the safety is in a useable location for everyone.


Remember that the major steel part of the gun -- the barrel -- is made in MEXICO.
Click to expand...

There you go again With the FUD (Fear, Uncertanty and Doubt). I'd appreciate it if you'd clue me in on any functional differences MEXICO introduces to the performance of the shotgun.
 
I'd appreciate it if you'd clue me in on any functional differences MEXICO introduces to the performance of the shotgun.
Click to expand...
I never said there were any. I just like typing that over and over. I have a serious ethical problem with Mossberg saying their guns are US made with the largest part on the gun being made in a foreign country. I own foreign guns and love them. Chinese, Russian, Yugoslavian, Czech, Japanese, Korean, British, Canadian, Brazilian, German, Italian... What's the problem? All of those guns say where they are made. There is no functional difference in the guns and I'm sure the work is done properly and professionally. I've nothing against Mexican labor or your hard-earned dollars going to support a hard-working machinest's family anywhere. I do have a problem with a company that misrepresents its product, good as it is.

I'll continue to stock and sell Mossbergs. For the third best pump-action made today, they are still the cheapest. They're available in a dizzying array of barrel lengths, finishes, and stock options. They are reliable if not as durable in my opinion and experience.

And when did this rumor about the Remington safety not being ambidexterous start? Have any lefties ever OWNED an 870 and still feel this way. Why not just use the thumb of your left hand to press the safety or wrap the trigger finger around the back of the trigger guard? I use my strong hand to engage and disengage the safety on my 870, what's the difference? What's the problem? I'm of the opinion that the tang safety is inferior esepecially if you want to put a PG stock on the gun. It makes absolutely no difference with the push- button safety if you put a PG stock on or a standard stock.

This thread being about combat shotguns, how much combat experience does the 590 have? How much does the Ithaca have? How much does the Remington 870 have? I'll tell you, I still think the 590 is fine and comes in a respectable third place.
 
And when did this rumor about the Remington safety not being ambidexterous start? Have any lefties ever OWNED an 870 and still feel this way. Why not just use the thumb of your left hand to press the safety or wrap the trigger finger around the back of the trigger guard?
Click to expand...


I'm lefthanded, The first repeating shotgun i ever fired was an 870 (which belongs to my father) and I can assure you that the mossberg safety is better. I see no reason to bother conforming to right handed pump shotguns when i can just use the ambidextrous mossberg.

I never said there were any. I just like typing that over and over. I have a serious ethical problem with Mossberg saying their guns are US made with the largest part on the gun being made in a foreign country.
Click to expand...

It's also a rather small portion of the maufacturing involved in making the gun; with only 10-15 manufacturing steps involved. The gun is the reciever, anyway.
 
I have to come clean. I'm just spouting off because somebody called me on it and said that it WASN'T made in Mexico. As for the safety, I'll debate that only because I prefer the pushbutton and I'm "Correct" handed, not a lefty.
 
I feel slighted...I grew up with Winchester's :D
Hey I like the 37 too. [Dave is shuddering by now]
I prefer the 870 ,over a mossy[Dave (G)]

Winnie has the safety where I want it, forward of trigger. Snick and back into TG and trigger is pulled. Remmies the safety is back, meaning I lose a smidge of time and fluid motion by snick, finger forward...then into TG then pull.

I can do tang safety...On a O/U, SxS...on a repeater, its,.. its wrong, like Colts cylinders go the wrong way :D

dfarriswheel great write up, very informative, some of that I actually ...err...I'm getting old. I know you like Colts, that means Smith's are backwards on cyl. Chevy Vs Ford....

Except in this case the 870, as dfarris and others have stated, works. We all know some agencies use a handgun and the politics and money buy back program that goes with it. Well there is a reason why people do not give up the '97, model 12, and 870...dfarris did provide that.

Easier to switch safety to LH on a Winnie. I have shot with too many LH persons that either switched the safety, learned to use it RH...or yes we allowed the gun to NOT have a safety playing the clay games. 4 Rules applied - works, with or without a safety.

Me, I don't really care what one uses, I don't bash. I have a rule/criteria, applicable to any platform.

Gun must fit shooter, in a platform the shooter can use effectively, with ammo that is reliable everytime in that gun in the largest caliber that affords the said shooter quick accurate hits.
 
My $0.02 is that they're all good. Shotguns for combat should reliably hurl massive firepower over short distances. Either of these not fit the bill?

My 500A is at least 35 years old and still ticking fine. The mag spring needs replacing, but that's probably because of 5 lonely years in the laundry room...:uhoh:

I've shot 2 870's, an Ithaca, and my mossberg in pump guns. I thought the Ithaca was the nicest feel in operation. One of the 870's was a 60's vintage wingmaster (very nice indeed).

I'm a right hander but even I prefer the safety location on the Mossberg. It's the most logical place for a combat/hunting safety I've ever used.

JohnMc
 
Remmies the safety is back
Click to expand...

I've owned all three and for my money the Remington safety is the fastest, at least if you replace the factory button with an oversize version (Vang's is best). You can easily and rapidly disengage the safety with the base of the index finger with the finger still in register above the trigger guard.

I originally bought a Mossberg precisely because of the safety, but the Remington is faster -- you can disengage without altering your firing hand grip. This is not possible with the Mossberg -- the thumb must move high. The Mossberg plastic button is also a failure-prone part and must be replaced with a steel replacement; how many users actually do that, I wonder?
 
I looked into the 870 for Left handed use as my son is left handed. Any competent gunsmith can reverse the safety on an 870, see the Kuhnhausen manual. Also, Remington made Left Handed 870's.

Further, I went through several drills shooting the 870 left handed- the only controls that really matter are the bolt release and the safety. The safety is easily solved, I had no issue using the bolt release.

I think lefties are lucky in some ways as the ejection port is on their "weak", right hand side, this makes reload drills, switch to slug drills easy as heck, no over or under the receiver to make the load-it goes right in the port!

Needless to say my kid will get either a left handed 870 or a right hander with a lefty safety.
 
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