6.5 Creedmoor the Perfect Compromise?

[94045]

We were shooting a few rifles the other day and it got me to thinking.

A Cousin's Kid wanted to shoot my T/C Compass 6.5 Creedmoor as he is looking at getting a rifle of his own. He is currently using a Remington Model 7 Youth .243 that has been been passed down through the boys in his family.

He shot the 6.5 and reported it didn't feel much different. I grabbed his .243 and tried it. I couldn't tell much difference.

I got home and did some math.
Result is a 8.25 lb (All up) 6.5 CM has 6.6% more recoil force at 3.3% Lower Velocity than a 7.25 lb (All up) Model 7 Youth .243.

No wonder we couldn't tell much difference.

Disclaimer: I used 42.0 Grains H4350 (Warning I've since noticed this is over max in some manuals although mine shows 43.0 as Max) in the 6.5 CM and 45.0 Grains of H1000 for the .243 for the calculations.
I based charge on the published velocities. We were shooting Hornady American Whitetail loads in each rifle. 100 grain and 129 Grain.

For the same recoil (essentially) I think I will take the 1 lb heavier Creedmoor.

I don't know that we can do a lot better than this for effectiveness vs recoil.

 

[LoonWulf]

For stuff upto large deer I don't think the CM offers a large advantage in terminal performance. For stuff larger than deer it has a distinct advantage with the heavier 120+ bullets.
I prefer the a .250 or 6.5 to the .243, but that's personal preference. I honestly don't think a deer hunter would be poorly served with any of them.


Thus I honestly think the rifle it's chambered in matters more than the cartridge for the most part.

 

[troy fairweather]

the 243 is a fine cartridge and so is the 6.5 the shooter is better of with a rifle he/she can shoot accurately and has confidence in.

 

[243winxb]

Compare the 308 Win. to the 6.5 using deer type bullets @ normal hunting distances.

 

[94045]

Compare the 308 Win. to the 6.5 using deer type bullets.

At 100 yards? I'll take the .308 and at 400 yards I'll take the 6.5...

The 6.5 increased hit probability 100% at 1000 m over the 7.62x52 (.308) and increased range by 50%. That probably equates to 150 yards at my level of skill.

That said I shoot most of my deer with .38 WCF so what do I know.

It was just an Eye Opener for me because I didn't expect recoil to be that similar. .308 and .243 certainly are not.

 

[Random 8]

You've "discovered" something that fans of the 6.5x55 Swedish cartridge have known for a long time. A 120-140 grain .264 bullet is fine medicine for light to medium game with mild recoil at these velocities. In the North, white tailed deer run large. An ancient doe can top 180 field dressed, and it's not uncommon for even a 2 1/2 year buck to top 200. Couple that with thicker hair, fat and bone, and the heavier bullets in 6.5 are superior to the 100gr .243. Ditto if the game gets larger than deer, such as smallish elk, caribou, Scandinavian moose and the like. The 6,5x55 has been a fine round for these for many years, and the modern 6.5 CM should do fine service going forward. Along similar lines, the 7mm-08 is quietly developing a large following in my part of the country as a rifle for deer hunting, especially among younger shooters. A bit more recoil than the 6.5CM, but still more manageable than the .308 and easily adapted to a compact platform.

 

[243winxb]

600 yards

I dont see recoil being a problem in the 308 for a hand loader. Reduced loads for the kids, till they grow into it.

 

[94045]

Compare the 308 Win. to the 6.5 using deer type bullets @ normal hunting distances.

...and it does this with similar recoil?

 

[mustanger98]

My thought... figure the stock fit along with the preferred sight system, then get the rifle's weight and chambering matched to give the desired performance while reducing recoil to comfortable levels. But then I'm a .30-30 fan who's also a .243 fan... shot deer with both... who really has nothing against the other cartridges previously mentioned, other than just no immediate use.

 

[243winxb]

Rifle fit, weight and recoil pad all make a difference in felt recoil.

Creedmoor owners-
1. 6.5 Creedmoor, Ok for deer, but for black bear, he took his 308.

2. Has 6.5 Creedmoor to take for African plains game. Pro-hunter said a 300 win mag needed. She bought a 308 Win instead.

Both have the Savage 20" barrel , light weight hunter. The short barrel produces lower velocity then Hodgdon's data , listed at 24"

 

[94045]

If a 6.5x55 takes Moose I don't see an issue with a 6.5 CM and 140's on Black Bear.

For Plains Game I would take a .300 H&H.
I'm a bit sentimental.

A lot of plains game has been taken with 7x57 so I don't know that I would place the .300 Mag as minimum.

You could do a lot worse as a set for Africa than 7x57 and .375 H&H.

 

[Random 8]

If a 6.5x55 takes Moose I don't see an issue with a 6.5 CM and 140's on Black Bear.

For Plains Game I would take a .300 H&H.
I'm a bit sentimental.

A lot of plains game has been taken with 7x57 so I don't know that I would place the .300 Mag as minimum.

You could do a lot worse as a set for Africa than 7x57 and .375 H&H.

Well, the 6.5x54MS is a classic African plains caliber, with ballistics inferior to the 6.5CM, typically launching a 156 gr SP or solid from a carbine to short rifle length barrel. Fortunately they copied Savage's rotary magazine for rapid follow up shots!

And I did shoot a largish black bear with a 6.5x50 Jap carbine with a 120 grain soft point. Wasn't intending to shoot bears, was just the rifle I had handy when one tried to eat my cabin door. It died with one shot. Would have preferred my .280 with 145 gr Grand Slams though.

 

[MachIVshooter]

The 6.5 is a worthwhile consideration if shopping for a new rifle, but I wouldn't be in any hurry to trade in a good .243 on one for deer hunting. It's not going to make them any deader. With all the rifles being 1:8 and so much match grade factory fodder, the 6.5 CM has a distinct advantage in the precision shooting category, but for taking medium game animals, it won't do anything the .243 win, 6mm rem, .257 Roberts, 6.5x55, 7mm-08, 7x57, .308 and two dozen other small bore rounds based on the .308 or x57 won't do just fine.

Me? If I were gonna do a 6.5, it wouldn't be the Creed. Not enough case volume, and as a gunsmith and handloader, the benefit of factory 1:8 rifles and match ammo means squat. I'd build a 6.5-06 AI with a nice 1:8 Lilja, Schilen or Kreiger tube on a 700 and have something that reaches out a good bit futher.

 

[jmr40]

Compare the 308 Win. to the 6.5 using deer type bullets @ normal hunting distances.

Let's. On paper the numbers make them look similar. But once you see the bullets, and the results of penetration tests the 6.5 looks pretty good

.

The bullet on the left is a 143gr Hornady bullet. The other 3 are .308's in 150, 178, and 200 gr weights made by Hornady. All are hunting bullets. Assuming equal construction the 6.5 will out penetrate the 308/150 every time. On any game animal at any range.

Assuming we start the 6.5 at 2700 fps and the 308 at 2850 fps the 308 does have an energy and velocity advantage at the muzzle. But as already stated the 6.5 will still easily out penetrate it at any range. But if we push things to only 200 yards the energy numbers, velocity and drop are virtually the same. But the 6.5 has 2 advantages. In only a very light breeze of 10mph the 6.5 has a distinct advantage in less wind drift. As range increases beyond 200 yards the 6.5 starts leaving the 308 in it's dust. And 300 yards isn't terribly long range. In an 8 lb rifle the 6.5 will have 12 ft lbs recoil, the 308, 15 ft lbs. Just for comparison a 243 has 11 ft lbs. That is 20% less recoil for the 6.5..

If we move up to a 175-180 gr bullet the 308 can now hang with the 6.5 for a little longer. But very few people actually shoot bullets that heavy in 308. Now penetration is virtually the same at any range and on any game. Note the 308 has no advantage, it is just a tie now. But the 6.5 still has the advantage of less drop and less drift in the wind. And the recoil advantage is even greater. You'd have about 16 ft lbs recoil with a 308/178. Now the 308 has 25% more recoil.

You reach the point of diminishing returns with 200 gr bullets in 308. Unless you are pushing them faster than book loads they aren't fast enough to have any real advantage over the 175-180 gr bullets.

The secret to killing game is hitting it in the right spot. The 6.5 makes it easier to do that than any other round to come along in a long time. You get a bullet with enough mass and with good sectional density to penetrate enough to kill anything in the lower 48 with recoil slightly more than 243.

Here is another way to look at it. A 6.5 CM firing a 143 gr bullet impacts at virtually the same speed as a 270 firing 150 gr traditional bullets. No one ever said the 270/150 was a poor choice for game larger than deer.

 

[silicosys4]

"A 6.5 CM firing a 143 gr bullet impacts at virtually the same speed as a 270 firing 150 gr traditional bullets. No one ever said the 270/150 was a poor choice for game larger than deer."

Sounds like I'm covered with a .270 then.

 

[LRDGCO]

120 odd years later, a .264" projectile at 2600 fps is still working well. Hard to believe? And yet that old fashioned, looooong action Swede will let you push 160 grs too. Would be happy to use that on elk and bear out to 200 yards.

Scandinavian moose, aka elg, are smaller than ours in North America. If you've ever been in proximity to one of ours, "you're gonna want a bigger gun".

 

[troy fairweather]

The 6.5 is a worthwhile consideration if shopping for a new rifle, but I wouldn't be in any hurry to trade in a good .243 on one for deer hunting. It's not going to make them any deader. With all the rifles being 1:8 and so much match grade factory fodder, the 6.5 CM has a distinct advantage in the precision shooting category, but for taking medium game animals, it won't do anything the .243 win, 6mm rem, .257 Roberts, 6.5x55, 7mm-08, 7x57, .308 and two dozen other small bore rounds based on the .308 or x57 won't do just fine.

Me? If I were gonna do a 6.5, it wouldn't be the Creed. Not enough case volume, and as a gunsmith and handloader, the benefit of factory 1:8 rifles and match ammo means squat. I'd build a 6.5-06 AI with a nice 1:8 Lilja, Schilen or Kreiger tube on a 700 and have something that reaches out a good bit futher.

the 6.5 cm guys just wont admit that the little 243 win shoots flatter and bucks the wind better lol. i like the Cm but not the, o its the best so sell all your other rifles because they now suck way off thinking some guys have. i am not the biggest 6.5 fan, i like 6mm, 7mm better.

 

[Varminterror]

the 6.5 cm guys just wont admit that the little 243 win shoots flatter and bucks the wind better lol.

You sure about that? Most of the guys who were 6.5 Creedmoor guys a couple years ago, doing a lot of shooting with it, have converted to a 6mm already. I have never had a 6.5 shooter on my squads try to tell me his round shoots flatter than my 6 creed. They ALL admit a 243win or 6mm Creed shoots flatter. But they all laugh when mirage is high and spotters have trouble calling impacts at 1200yrds when little 105grn pills run into big targets. Those 140/143/147’s elicit a lot more target response than the 6mm’s.

The 6.5 guys DO ask the same knowing question: “how many rounds you have left on that 6 creed barrel, do you think?” #burnnotice

 

[IdaD]

Recoil isn't too high on my list of worries in a hunting rifle. I feel it a little bit when I'm sighting in but it doesn't really bother me, and I've never felt a gun kick when there's some kind of game in my scope. My greater focus is on trying to calm my nerves so I can get off a steady shot. I have a couple of smaller rifles, but generally when I'm hunting deer I'll use a 7mm-08 or 30-06, or for elk I'll use a 30-06 or 300 Weatherby. The biggest animal I've shot was an Alaskan bull moose with my 30-06 and it worked fine. I've also taken deer with the Weatherby. I doubt I'll ever branch out from these calibers because they're what I own and they all work great for me. The 6.5 CM is probably pretty comparable to my 7mm-08 so I kind of have that base covered already.

 

[mustanger98]

"A 6.5 CM firing a 143 gr bullet impacts at virtually the same speed as a 270 firing 150 gr traditional bullets. No one ever said the 270/150 was a poor choice for game larger than deer."

Sounds like I'm covered with a .270 then.

Yeah, that's about what I thought... my handload is a 140gr BTSP running 2700-2800fps at the muzzle, and according to Hornady's 5th Edition, their 140gr BTSP has a higher BC than their flat-base 150gr SP. That's not that much slower than my 100gr SP .243's.

IIRC, this thread started with compared recoil... I've found neither of these to be particularly offensive in the +/-8lb rifles I've dealt with.

 

[horsemen61]

I like the 6.5 creed for the fact that it kicks like a .243 but hits like a .308 to me that just my 2cents it’s worth what you paid for it

 

[Nature Boy]

Recoil isn't too high on my list of worries in a hunting rifle.

Me either. It can get get annoying when you’re banging away at the bench but when I’m in the field drawing down on a nice buck I never feel the recoil and rarely notice the report.

 

[LoonWulf]

Rifle fit, weight and recoil pad all make a difference in felt recoil.

Great deal of truth in that!

I never feel the recoil and rarely notice the report.

only time I noticed the report was 3 or 4+ shots in......and the first time I touched off a round from my grendel Ar with its brake and no hearing protection. Made my Buddy scurry bout 30ft back behind me too. That gun was inordinately loud.....

I tend to feel the effects of recoil, and blast a few mins after the shooting stops, and I DO appreciate not having bruises and ringing ears....Not enough to quit shooting magnums it seems tho....

 

[Captcurt]

I am a fan of the 6.5 Creedmoor and have owned 3. To be honest, it doesn't do anything at normal hunting range than a dozen other calibers. I have also owned a Swede and 260 Rem. They are nearly identical in performance out to 400 yards with similar recoil. The main reason I like the CM is the availability of ammo and brass. It is a lot easier to come by than many of the other calibers.

 

[FL-NC]

I really wish I had chosen 6.5 CM for my RAR hunting rifle versus 308, just to have a better rifle for longer ranges.